Digdoug - Episode 15

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby BrotherRool » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:10 am

I'm definitely thinking that Delkey are going to be the ones causing trouble here. Posbrake is too successful and unconventional, they're going to want to reign in their offshoot sometime. It didn't seem like a very stable foundation in the first place.

The way I see the Charlie thing going is either
1) He's just there as a force of nature as suggested above. To be powerful and useful and acting to the letter of the contract. He might be the deciding factor in the Delkey/Homekey war

2) He tries to trick them with the deal, possibly by also hiring out to Delkey or instigating the attack between them. They 'outsmart' and survive but then Charley shows them that it was just as beneficial for him for Homekey to win as it was Delkey.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:28 am

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I imagine everyone heals at the start of day, instead of start of turn. Otherwise counterattacks from late in the day defenders would be devastating.
It just means that you have to cope with any injuries you get during your turn while everyone else takes their turns. Since it's your choice whether you engage in combat on your turn, it seems only fair that you accept the consequences.

On the other hand, everyone healing at dawn would mean the side that has the last turn of the day is forced to attack at reduced strength or using wounded soldiers. They would never get a chance to attack at full strength because everyone else would be able to weaken them every day.

Since we know that rations pop at the start of the turn, I think we should assume that healing happens at the start of the turn too, until some evidence suggests otherwise.

Rations don't pop at the start of the turn. They pop at dawn.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F037.jpg

I remember Parson writing somewhere that he nicked his ankle screwing around with a pickaxe in the tunnels with Sizemore, and then he went on to describe the sock and his skin mending itself, with the bloodstain vanishing. Wish I could find it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:08 am

Lipkin wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I imagine everyone heals at the start of day, instead of start of turn. Otherwise counterattacks from late in the day defenders would be devastating.
It just means that you have to cope with any injuries you get during your turn while everyone else takes their turns. Since it's your choice whether you engage in combat on your turn, it seems only fair that you accept the consequences.

On the other hand, everyone healing at dawn would mean the side that has the last turn of the day is forced to attack at reduced strength or using wounded soldiers. They would never get a chance to attack at full strength because everyone else would be able to weaken them every day.

Since we know that rations pop at the start of the turn, I think we should assume that healing happens at the start of the turn too, until some evidence suggests otherwise.

Rations don't pop at the start of the turn. They pop at dawn.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F037.jpg

I remember Parson writing somewhere that he nicked his ankle screwing around with a pickaxe in the tunnels with Sizemore, and then he went on to describe the sock and his skin mending itself, with the bloodstain vanishing. Wish I could find it.

No, they appear at the start of turn. That just happens to usually be dawn.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F104.jpg provides an example of it not happening at dawn.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lipkin » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:12 am

I stand corrected.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby mortissimus » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:01 pm

Healing is also start of turn: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F046a.jpg

Critical fact number 4.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Ah, and there it is. Makes sense, and really does give a potentially huge advantage to the defender in any given conflict so long as they can capitalize on it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby My2Cents » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:03 pm

The suspense is killing me.
The battle has to start next update. Right?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:43 pm

My2Cents wrote:The suspense is killing me.
The battle has to start next update. Right?

Well, it's already super late in the night, and Charlie has the first natural turn order (I wonder if that's something special with him, if he is just very lucky to be the earliest there is, or we just haven't seen anyone go earlier than him yet), so the battle should be more or less the first thing that happens in the turn. It seems unlikely that there will be too much that can happen between that and the start of battle.

Also, based on the length of the Lord Crush story and the relative word counts, this should be wrapped up in about... 5-6 more pages (assuming the pages have been about the same length, which I haven't bothered to check really). I'm thinking maybe... half a page here to set up the day, with the other half being the 'squaring off' of the forces, then 3 pages of battle, and 1-2 pages of wrapping up... possibly leaving us with a cliff hanger of sorts with Creen croaked but the plan otherwise going off more or less as hoped, leaving what will happen between Delkey and Homekey up in the air. Then again, Lord Crush had a 'resolution' as much as it could with the side still existing, so I'm not real strongly suspecting a cliff hanger, but it is possible.

It's be really cool if we ever saw any of these places in the main comic. We did get the Dove connection at least, so that was cool, but another 'shout out' of sorts would also be great.

Edit: Speaking of cameos, I keep wondering if the dirtamancer we saw break down Sizemore's pyramid is Digdoug. I kinda doubt it, as they don't seem to have similar personalities from what little we saw of him, but it is possible, unless I'm forgetting that his name was said at some point.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Omnimancer » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:11 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
My2Cents wrote:The suspense is killing me.
The battle has to start next update. Right?

Well, it's already super late in the night, and Charlie has the first natural turn order (I wonder if that's something special with him, if he is just very lucky to be the earliest there is, or we just haven't seen anyone go earlier than him yet), so the battle should be more or less the first thing that happens in the turn. It seems unlikely that there will be too much that can happen between that and the start of battle.


I wonder if sides have a natural initiative score that determines turn order.

I also notice that small sides like Charlescomm and Book 1 Gobwin Knob tend to go early in the turn order. Maybe as a side gains cities and becomes less efficient it loses initiative and drops in the turn order? That would explain why barbarians always go first.

It could also depend on who first entered into a hex with an enemy unit, the side that initiated the current conflict.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby wih » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:34 am

Omnimancer wrote:I also notice that small sides like Charlescomm and Book 1 Gobwin Knob tend to go early in the turn order. Maybe as a side gains cities and becomes less efficient it loses initiative and drops in the turn order? That would explain why barbarians always go first.


This... is elegant and would explain everything. Barbarians with no cities go first, Charlescom with 1 goes after, but before other sides.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:46 am

Omnimancer wrote:Maybe as a side gains cities and becomes less efficient it loses initiative and drops in the turn order?
Unfortunately that's not possible since Faq's turn came after Haffaton's turn in Book 0, as demonstrated in B0E58. I doubt that a side's turn order changes over time. I think it's more likely that the turn order is either random or based on the age of the side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby memnarch » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:56 am

Lipkin wrote:I remember Parson writing somewhere that he nicked his ankle screwing around with a pickaxe in the tunnels with Sizemore, and then he went on to describe the sock and his skin mending itself, with the bloodstain vanishing. Wish I could find it.

Link found.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby YRM_DM » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:05 pm

Couldn't Charlie, as a powerful Carnymancer, cast a spell that negated his obligation to abide by certain rules of the contract?

I doubt it'll go down that way but, if it did, in the end, who'd be around to tell?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby ftl » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:36 pm

Well, we've already established that charlie can do basically anything if he sets his mind to it.

So I strongly suspect that Charlie CAN break all these contracts he makes.

But it's a really, really high-risk thing. Who knows? Maybe one caster will escape through the portal to the MK. Maybe the ruler will, with his last moments alive, contact a thinkamancer. It's really hard to be 100% sure that nobody will be able to tell the tale. So I think Charlie would only do that if it was really, really important to him.

This fight? There's no way it's that important to charlie. He's successfully set it up so that he gets paid either way, whoever wins. He has no reason to care, in the longterm, whether homekey or delkey or numloch is successful in this region of the world. I think it would not be in his best interests to risk his reputation over the pennies of difference that this conflict would make to his bottom line.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:01 pm

ftl wrote:This fight? There's no way it's that important to charlie. He's successfully set it up so that he gets paid either way, whoever wins. He has no reason to care, in the longterm, whether homekey or delkey or numloch is successful in this region of the world. I think it would not be in his best interests to risk his reputation over the pennies of difference that this conflict would make to his bottom line.


Well, not perfectly set up. To get his payout from Homekey, he needs to do the "fake battle" where he doesn't croak so much as a single stabber. To get the payout from Numloch, he needs to croak Posbrake.

The way I see it, Creen has the Chekhov's Flying special, is going to stick around as he's a nuisance - and when the fight comes, will actively engage the Archons in the airspace. At which point Charlie's got to make the decision - does he or does he not retaliate? If he chooses to stick to the plan, he's got to retreat without causing a single casualty. I mean, how terrible is *that* for his reputation? Delkey/Creen won't keep to themselves how easily Charlie's FORTY (or however many it is) archons retreated from battle. Which we know he cares about an awful lot. When it was just Homekey and Charlie involved, only *they'd* know about what actually went down.

And if he chooses to retaliate? Then he's got to make sure that he gets Posbrake's head at the end of it, or else there's no bounty from Numloch. So he becomes very interested in this conflict in this region of the world.

And if he tries weaseling his way out of contracts with Carnymancy he may or may not be capable of, then again, that does a number on his reputation.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:10 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Omnimancer wrote:Maybe as a side gains cities and becomes less efficient it loses initiative and drops in the turn order?
Unfortunately that's not possible since Faq's turn came after Haffaton's turn in Book 0, as demonstrated in B0E58. I doubt that a side's turn order changes over time. I think it's more likely that the turn order is either random or based on the age of the side.


If turn order is determined by some efficiency or initiative score, it's possible that number of cities is just one factor. For example, Trannsylvito had a lower turn order than single city Gobwin Knob. But maybe Trannsylvito is just highly efficient. And Haffaton has an earlier turn order than Faq, but that's a weird kind of situation on both sides. Haffaton had very few units relative to its size, and many of those were Olive's creation. And Faq was small, but had a large number number of non-combat units. That may have dropped their initiative score.

It's still very unclear though. It could definitely decided by something else, or ever be based on a combination of factors. Maybe it's based on the ruler's personal initiative, rather than the side. Or maybe it's some formula like ruler score + side efficiency.

Maybe someone will use their kickstarter question to ask.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:54 pm

ftl wrote:So I strongly suspect that Charlie CAN break all these contracts he makes.
The fact that contracts are magically enforced is one of the few things in Erfworld that allows people to trust each other. If contracts can be ignored by any means, then contracts are useless. Not only would it be madness to make a contract with a Carnymancer, you couldn't make a contract with any caster in the Magic Kingdom because that place has such easy access to Carnymancers. The whole system would break down.

Denar wrote:The way I see it, Creen has the Chekhov's Flying special, is going to stick around as he's a nuisance - and when the fight comes, will actively engage the Archons in the airspace. At which point Charlie's got to make the decision - does he or does he not retaliate? If he chooses to stick to the plan, he's got to retreat without causing a single casualty.
This sort of thing is why I'm pretty sure that the contract allows Charlie to croak Delkey units. If Delkey units aren't really being attacked they are going to notice and then the secret is out. For some reason Posbrake still insists on keeping this whole thing secret from Delkey, so everything in the battle will probably be real for Delkey. If Creen goes into the airspace and dies in this battle, then Posbrake will have murdered Creen, which seems horrible, but if Posbrake weren't willing to kill his allies then he should have let Delkey in on the joke.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby ftl » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:06 pm

Lilwik wrote:
ftl wrote:So I strongly suspect that Charlie CAN break all these contracts he makes.
The fact that contracts are magically enforced is one of the few things in Erfworld that allows people to trust each other. If contracts can be ignored by any means, then contracts are useless. Not only would it be madness to make a contract with a Carnymancer, you couldn't make a contract with any caster in the Magic Kingdom because that place has such easy access to Carnymancers. The whole system would break down.


Yes, that's all true.

It's like the thing about thinkagrams. If everyone knew that thinkagrams could be listened in on, people wouldn't use them. But nobody knows, because listening in on thinkagrams is difficult (and maybe impossible without an arkentool).

So I would guess that a tri-link with a carnymancer could still break a contract, and charlie has access to those if he wants. I am very wary of identifying something in particular and saying that a tri-link can't do it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby SNfinity » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:14 pm

As far as turn order, I always assumed that older sides get earlier spots on the turn order. I never gave it too much thought, mind, but that's my guess.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:23 pm

SNfinity wrote:As far as turn order, I always assumed that older sides get earlier spots on the turn order. I never gave it too much thought, mind, but that's my guess.

Though, that doesn't necessarily make alot of sense in the case of Jetstone. Jetstone is a royal side, and it can trace it's linage all the way back to the Titans (supposedly). Now, while it is very likely that Jetstone got spun off by a royal heir or something kind of like Homekey did, it is still likely to be a fairly old side.

Speaking of which, do we know if Homekey or Delkey has first turn order? Because if Homekey has first spot, then that idea is clearly wrong. It is possible that is how it is though, with it being simple age. I very much doubt however that it is a variable that can change in any way, because everyone in Erfworld seems exceedingly confident of their turn order in relation to others, so I doubt it'd ever change.
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