Digdoug - Episode 15

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:26 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Godzfirefly wrote:You're assuming that Erfworld offers some sure-fire method of offing oneself. I do not believe that to be the case.
Of all the things that Wanda could do to herself, how could it be possible that none of them could be certain death? She could even stab herself with a sword. No amount of luck would allow her to survive that if she does it correctly.


Actually, the only sure fire way we've seen in which you can off yourself, has been entering a Magic Kingdom when not explicitly a caster (I really want to see a Carny break this rule as well). edit: oh, drowning, maybe, as well?

Wanda suggested jumping from the tower in order to croak herself. We learnt about falling damage in an update long ago, where it turns out that height matters very little, and it's all down to (you guessed it - that thing Fate loves messing around with!) random chance. Wanda could throw herself from the tower and Fate could just give her the one in a million roll to take minimum damage. And if she tries too hard, just incapacitate her and Fate someone else along to take over.

"and no amount of luck would allow her to survive" actually, that's not true. In the previous update, we learnt how any act of trying to damage a unit takes this RNG factor as well. Peck could try and do minimum damage, but could end up doing more damage than he intended. We know from watching combat in Erfworld, you can't intend to deal maximum damage and have it guaranteed either - and that, even when you intend to do maximum damage, you can deal far less. Wanda could try falling on her sword, and thanks to zany Erfworld biology/physics, only end up incapacitated, or taking a scratch of damage. And would she be able to kill herself anyway? No, Duty would tell her that it's stupid, has no benefit for her side, everyone knows this. It's what Delphie means in the conversation of "I could throw myself from the tower!" - "You can but you won't". Fate won't take away Wanda's free will, but Duty's already done that anyway. At the core of it all, it's all gameplay formulas, combat and other actions follow a very strict set of rules like a card game, and "luck" seems to be a huge part of all of them.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby drachefly » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:39 pm

We don't know how much height matters. The way it was phrased, real life is compatible with it - people have died from falling over, and failed to die after falling from airplanes.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:26 pm

Also keep in mind that in the USA, 50% of all workplace deaths in industry are caused by people falling.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:10 pm

drachefly wrote:The way it was phrased, real life is compatible with it - people have died from falling over, and failed to die after falling from airplanes.
It wouldn't surprise me if it works very much like real life. Erfworlders seem to think in terms of points of damage, but when it comes time to actually injure one of them the injuries they get seem more like Stupidworld injuries than numbers. If it weren't for the lack of blood, I'd be tempted to think that injuries in Erfworld are exactly like real life injuries and the whole concept of points only exists in the minds of Erfworlders. Therefore I would bet that the injury that an Erfworlder suffers in a fall depends exclusively on how far he falls and how he lands.

The only issue with that theory is the fact that a unit on a flying mount cannot fly down to an inch above the courtyard and safely jump from the mount to the ground. I imagine that if you try that then some magical thing happens to potentially injure you, much like the magical walls at hex boundaries when it's not your turn. Maybe some magical force throws you off balance so you must tumble instead of landing safely on your feet.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Shai_hulud » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:28 am

Related to the fact that it is literally impossible for flying units to land off turn on the ground?
LIAB Text 56 wrote:The Decrypted Archon stood stock still, hovering just above a rooftop she physically could not touch.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:51 pm

We don't know how much height matters. The way it was phrased, real life is compatible with it - people have died from falling over, and failed to die after falling from airplanes.


OK, so I'll post what Parson learns about falling damage.

Falling Dudes
So then we got into the rules about falling people. Because I was like "why can't mounted flyers just fly down close to the ground and jump off their mounts to cross zones?"
Answer: it counts as a "fall" in the physics of Erfworld. It's natural Shockmancy. When you fall, one of three things happens: you are injured (possibly only slightly), you are incapacitated (you croak in one turn if not given Healomancy), or you just croak. Height of the fall does seem to have some bearing on that, but it's essentially random. You can croak from a three foot fall.


There's no indication that it works "like real life". You fall an inch, like the Archon in Shai_Hulud's example could have, and you qualify for that random Natural Shockmancy, which could croak you. I disagree with the parallel between "airplanes"/"falling over" in real life, and Erfworld. Parson is explicitly displaying how arbitrary the system is to him and what he's used to (real world physics), how it randomly assigns you to one of three distinct categories. And for none of them can you avoid the Natural Shockmancy. You could not fall an inch without "rolling" for your life. There would be no way to safely dismount a flying mount if you didn't have the green light from the system to do so. You could "dismount" when it's your turn, and everything's fine. You could dismount, doing the same physical actions, when it's not your turn, and the system makes you gamble your life. It is not like real life at all. There is a - for all intents and purposes - malicious force behind Erfworld that rolls the dice of whether you live or die, and it does not care if you fall "awkwardly/correctly", which would justify us taking or avoiding "damage" in the real world. It just cares about enforcing a very strict rule with very strict, defined outcomes.

Erfworlders seem to think in terms of points of damage, but when it comes time to actually injure one of them the injuries they get seem more like Stupidworld injuries than numbers.


I completely disagree. We have seen units lose arms and limbs, and then immediately continue with the fight, or give orders and speak; they remain entirely functional as units. They remain able to fight at the same capacity up until the moment they lose their last hitpoint. (obviously incapacitation counts as it's own unit status)

I'm going to copy the words of another user (kreistor) regarding this specific page (from the "malicious titans theory" post):http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-01-17.jpg

Here we see Duke Antium. He has lost half an arm. He has a hole blasted in his side. He should be suffering incredible pain. He should be suffering from massive blood loss and shock. He should be addled. He shouldn't even be able to stand with that much muscle mass blasted out of his side, much less swing a weapon. Is he any of these things? No. He is fully cognizant and seeking out the highest value target in the region. He is weapon capable and strikes the illusion accurately with what should have been a death blow. He is, for all intents and purposes, fully functional despite the loss of his arm and the fact he lacks the mechanical capacity to stand under Earth's laws. He shows no signs of feeling the debilitating pain he would on Earth with those wounds, nor the physical limitations these "wounds" should inflict.

That begs the question: is he really injured? Is losing "hitsies" actual injury, or just a number to indicate how close one is to dying? Antium is evidence that something is significantly different about injury on Erfworld vs. Earth, and we shouldn't be looking at damage in the same way. No matter how bad the injury, Erfworlders remain functional and combat capable until they die, which denies pain, and anything except the superficiality of the appearance of injury. Injuries, in coputer parlance, are a skin on the character, and not true damage causing true pain.

MarbitChow, you introduced the idea of D&D. I'll extend that. Let's talk hit points (up to V3.5, since I am not familiar with V4,0). As a D&D character is struck, he loses hit points. As he loses HP, does he suffer any ill effects from the pain of that wound? No, he is fully functional right until the moment he hits or is reduced below 0 HP (and what happens then depends on the version). He is fully functional, and thus can be feeling no pain. There are systems that provided pain with a mechanic, but many simply didn't deal with the messiness of it.

Since Antium can wield his spear, I can make the case that he isn't really injured, either. He has an appearance of injury and he lacks a second hand making some tasks impossible for less than 24 hours, but his function is unaffected. He has lost unnecessary bits only, and from that perspective has not lost anything, just been inconvenienced.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:46 pm

Denar wrote:There is a - for all intents and purposes - malicious force behind Erfworld that rolls the dice of whether you live or die, and it does not care if you fall "awkwardly/correctly", which would justify us taking or avoiding "damage" in the real world.
We haven't yet seen what exactly happens when a unit tries to jump from a flying mount near the ground. All we can do is guess. Maybe some sort of magical force strikes the unit, or maybe the unit is forced to land awkwardly, like having all sense of balance taken away just before touching the ground. Maybe the way you land matters and maybe it doesn't.

Denar wrote:We have seen units lose arms and limbs, and then immediately continue with the fight, or give orders and speak; they remain entirely functional as units. They remain able to fight at the same capacity up until the moment they lose their last hitpoint.
That is certainly not true. Consider B0E47 where Jillian suffers injuries and the injuries reduce her combat effectiveness and cause pain. Erfworlders are surely far more durable than Stupidworlders, but there's also no doubt that injuries matter.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:40 am

Lilwik wrote:
Denar wrote:There is a - for all intents and purposes - malicious force behind Erfworld that rolls the dice of whether you live or die, and it does not care if you fall "awkwardly/correctly", which would justify us taking or avoiding "damage" in the real world.
We haven't yet seen what exactly happens when a unit tries to jump from a flying mount near the ground. All we can do is guess. Maybe some sort of magical force strikes the unit, or maybe the unit is forced to land awkwardly, like having all sense of balance taken away just before touching the ground. Maybe the way you land matters and maybe it doesn't.


It's not a spectrum with multiple injuries like in our world, there are discrete health points that are taken from you, a single status of "incapacitated" or not, and the process is explicitly described as Parson as being random. To argue against this we have to speculate that something may or may not happen at the point of impact (though we have seen Ansom fall, and there was no moment of "topsy-turvy"-ness at his moment of impact; he landed head first and survived. If the argument here is because that helmet was a magic item that protects against one fall, then that highlight's the arbitrariness of the system even more.), and that Jack was lying to Parson when he asked about how falling damage worked.

Lilwik wrote:
Denar wrote:We have seen units lose arms and limbs, and then immediately continue with the fight, or give orders and speak; they remain entirely functional as units. They remain able to fight at the same capacity up until the moment they lose their last hitpoint.
That is certainly not true. Consider B0E47 where Jillian suffers injuries and the injuries reduce her combat effectiveness and cause pain. Erfworlders are surely far more durable than Stupidworlders, but there's also no doubt that injuries matter.


I'm not sure what you're drawing from that page. The "injuries" Jillian describes herself as having are only assessed after the fighting is done. On the next page she battles the pedobear and there is no indication that her combat is in any way impaired by her switch to her left arm- in fact she kills the bear by managing to succeed in a crit, so even that function of hers wasn't impaired. And in no way at all does the "pain" in her sword arm compare to what Duke Antium was sporting; loss of arm, gaping mass of muscle from torso missing, two gaping holes in his leg. And yet he still talks, runs, attacks. He wouldn't drop dead from these injuries even if he wasn't healed on turn, whereas a lack of treatment in our world would kill us. If it's "pain" they're feeling, then it's nothing like our pain at all. As usual in Erfworld, it looks more like a RP game where the numbers behind it all control the game, but the players still "Roleplay" their feelings about it.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Lilwik » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:10 am

Denar wrote:It's not a spectrum with multiple injuries like in our world, there are discrete health points that are taken from you, a single status of "incapacitated" or not, and the process is explicitly described as Parson as being random.
We've seen in B0E47 that there are multiple kinds of injuries that Erfworlders can suffer. We know from B2T39 that there are multiple kinds of incapacitation. Being random just means that it is unpredictable. For example, dice are random, but at the same time the result depends totally on how they land, so one in no way excludes the other.

Denar wrote:I'm not sure what you're drawing from that page. The "injuries" Jillian describes herself as having are only assessed after the fighting is done. On the next page she battles the pedobear and there is no indication that her combat is in any way impaired by her switch to her left arm- in fact she kills the bear by managing to succeed in a crit, so even that function of hers wasn't impaired.
There is a very simple and direct indication that Jillian's function was impaired: "She rose to her feet, feeling her injuries. The sword arm might be a problem, if she had to fight again. She retrieved her sword and tested her shoulder. It didn’t want to cooperate at all, but sort of could when she forced it to. So...not the best, but maybe." The circumstantial evidence that she happened to win the fight is useless beside the direct testimony of the narrator that explicitly tells us that she was impaired.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:40 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Denar wrote:It's not a spectrum with multiple injuries like in our world, there are discrete health points that are taken from you, a single status of "incapacitated" or not, and the process is explicitly described as Parson as being random.
We've seen in B0E47 that there are multiple kinds of injuries that Erfworlders can suffer. We know from B2T39 that there are multiple kinds of incapacitation. Being random just means that it is unpredictable. For example, dice are random, but at the same time the result depends totally on how they land, so one in no way excludes the other.


And yet only one form of incapacitation is possible from a fall, and that's the "you croak at the start of next turn" one. A unit, on their last hitpoint, could fall an inch. They will die. There is no way they could survive the fall damage. They could fall on their head or land on their feet. They're dead.

you can die from a three-foot fall in our world. Then why is Parson so surprised that it's the same in Erfworld? Because it's not like our world. You take that three foot fall, you gamble with your life. Every time.

Lilwik wrote:
Denar wrote:I'm not sure what you're drawing from that page. The "injuries" Jillian describes herself as having are only assessed after the fighting is done. On the next page she battles the pedobear and there is no indication that her combat is in any way impaired by her switch to her left arm- in fact she kills the bear by managing to succeed in a crit, so even that function of hers wasn't impaired.
There is a very simple and direct indication that Jillian's function was impaired: "She rose to her feet, feeling her injuries. The sword arm might be a problem, if she had to fight again. She retrieved her sword and tested her shoulder. It didn’t want to cooperate at all, but sort of could when she forced it to. So...not the best, but maybe." The circumstantial evidence that she happened to win the fight is useless beside the direct testimony of the narrator that explicitly tells us that she was impaired.


Again, those injuries are just superficial. Until we get an update where the thoughts of the character go "I went to swing my sword - oh no, I've taken a few hits and am now unable to do that", or Parson explicitly outlines the rules of combat, we haven't seen anything that says that units lose effectiveness as they run out of hitsies. I'm not making the point about her winning being "circumstantial evidence", I'm asking for it to be written somewhere that it says "Jillian's sword arm was broken. She would do less damage as a unit as a result." It doesn't. Erfworld remains as it always has, like a tabletop RPG with all the players roleplaying. I don't know why you separated Jillian and the Narrator when they are the same person, this is third-person subjective and uses her voice.

If you think Jillian still is less effective as a unit because her sword arm hurts, I would ask you instead to address Duke Antium, and this line of Kreistor's (bearing in mind everything else in that quote about pain/injury)

Since Antium can wield his spear, I can make the case that he isn't really injured, either. He has an appearance of injury and he lacks a second hand making some tasks impossible for less than 24 hours, but his function is unaffected. He has lost unnecessary bits only, and from that perspective has not lost anything, just been inconvenienced.


Antium - missing his arm, missing parts of his chest, missing parts of his leg. His internal narrator is probably saying the same thing as Jillian's - "gosh that really smarts! Hope I don't have to pick up something that requires two hands!" No less effective as a unit.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:16 pm

Until he has to fight with two hands. :|
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 15

Postby Denar » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:07 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Until he has to fight with two hands. :|


I have no doubt that a unit that is rendered unable to fight in such a way is automatically made "incapacitated".
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