Digdoug - Episode 13

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:50 am

Shai_hulud wrote:So. What happens to the lightning in the hex the trap is linked to?
Edit*
And for that matter, what happens when the trap gets powered up?

Based on what Digdoug said...not much. Even a dirtamancer can't actually stop the weather in a hex...just harness it a bit.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby name lips » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:32 am

I'd just like to throw this out there...

This "hands on" update regarding how Carnymancy works is making me really worried about the extent of Charlie's power. Not only is he a master at manipulating the rules that DO exist, he has Master-level abilities to change those rules. Remember all those hints about him playing with the Natural Allies rules?

Not only that, but he has the Arkendish, allowing, as far as we can tell, Master-level Thinkamancy and long-distance Caster linkups.

Just think of the rules we know he has broken: You can only end your side's turn. Your natural allies cannot betray you. There is a small, limited number of Dwagons available for taming.

What other rules does he break? Contracts? Upkeep? Turn order?

The possibilities are mind boggling.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:21 pm

One of the most interesting things that I have noticed Charlie be able to do was allow one discipline to act like another in a link. (He did this with Olive to allow her to make Flower Power versions of spells in other disciplines, including the Olive Garden. They listed Healomancy, Signamancy, Date-a-mancy, and Thinkamancy as just examples of this.) So, even if you see him hire a particular caster, you can't necessarily use that as a hint of what he might do. He doesn't seem limited by normal discipline limitations.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:30 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:So. What happens to the lightning in the hex the trap is linked to?
Edit*
And for that matter, what happens when the trap gets powered up?

Based on what Digdoug said...not much. Even a dirtamancer can't actually stop the weather in a hex...just harness it a bit.

...I meant the fact the the trap actually has to be hit by lightning to work. Where does it get it's electric power from? What happens to the electricity in the storm hex off in the distance?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Vreejack » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:31 pm

If Dove can kill off the king, Digdoug and the rest of the council, she can easily escape to the the MK without anyone realizing* she was a contractor. She can claim she was a prisoner whom Posbrake was trying to turn, but she escaped and killed him. Can she have her bounty now, please?

* Except Charlie, of course, for which his price for secrecy has already been negotiated.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:42 pm

Vreejack wrote:If Dove can kill off the king, Digdoug and the rest of the council, she can easily escape to the the MK without anyone realizing* she was a contractor.

Except for the escape to the MK part, since without Homekey there is no Homekey Portal...
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Free Radical » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:59 pm

So, a single, unlinked Carnymancy spell can remove the limitation of the material requirement for the lightning trap spell.

I can't think of any reason why a similar Carnymancy spell couldn't remove the "need a volcano" requirement for the "uncroak the volcano" spell. Or the (assumed) "need to be in the same hex as the volcano" requirement. Could Parson have a Carny remove the requirement so that he could have Sizemore/Maggie/Wanda throw a volcano at anything? Could Charlie remove the requirement, then hire a Dirtamancer and Croakamancer to waken Gobwin Knob's volcano?

From the sounds of it, DigDoug's spell isn't as strong at a distance from the nearest weather hex as it would be in the hex, so presumably the volcano spell wouldn't be as all-annihilating if it needed the Carny boost, but it would still surely be pretty impressive.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Lipkin » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:16 pm

Free Radical wrote:So, a single, unlinked Carnymancy spell can remove the limitation of the material requirement for the lightning trap spell.

I can't think of any reason why a similar Carnymancy spell couldn't remove the "need a volcano" requirement for the "uncroak the volcano" spell. Or the (assumed) "need to be in the same hex as the volcano" requirement. Could Parson have a Carny remove the requirement so that he could have Sizemore/Maggie/Wanda throw a volcano at anything? Could Charlie remove the requirement, then hire a Dirtamancer and Croakamancer to waken Gobwin Knob's volcano?

From the sounds of it, DigDoug's spell isn't as strong at a distance from the nearest weather hex as it would be in the hex, so presumably the volcano spell wouldn't be as all-annihilating if it needed the Carny boost, but it would still surely be pretty impressive.

Think the hex used just wasn't as stormy as the one from earlier in the story.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:47 pm

The new lightning trap drew its Shockmancy from the nearest rain hex, which wasn’t nearly as stormy as the one out in Weatherbug, so it wouldn’t be as effective.
It didn't remove the need for lightning, and distance wasn't why it didn't work as well. Why do people always jump to these crazy conclusions? On that note, why do people assume that natural allies revolting is breaking the rules? Crazy people, everywhere.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Omnimancer » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:21 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:
The new lightning trap drew its Shockmancy from the nearest rain hex, which wasn’t nearly as stormy as the one out in Weatherbug, so it wouldn’t be as effective.
It didn't remove the need for lightning, and distance wasn't why it didn't work as well. Why do people always jump to these crazy conclusions? On that note, why do people assume that natural allies revolting is breaking the rules? Crazy people, everywhere.


Natural allies can betray their side, it's just very unusual. In this case though, it almost certainly has something to do with Faq's turnamancer. Whether or not it required a carnymancy link is unclear, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Free Radical » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:31 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:It didn't remove the need for lightning, and distance wasn't why it didn't work as well. Why do people always jump to these crazy conclusions? On that note, why do people assume that natural allies revolting is breaking the rules? Crazy people, everywhere.

I didn't say it didn't need lightning, just that it removed the limitation. Meaning it would be possible to target the "uncroak the volcano" spell at a hex that didn't contain a volcano, since the spell could seek the nearest appropriate terrain hex to draw the appropriate Dirtamancy from in the exact same way as DigDoug's spell is doing here absent the "can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.

Sure, I misread some part of that as implying distance made the spell weaker, but since that not being the case only makes my suggestion a more devastating spell rather than less, it seems pretty stupid to call it a crazy conclusion to jump to.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:46 pm

Free Radical wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:It didn't remove the need for lightning, and distance wasn't why it didn't work as well. Why do people always jump to these crazy conclusions? On that note, why do people assume that natural allies revolting is breaking the rules? Crazy people, everywhere.

I didn't say it didn't need lightning, just that it removed the limitation. Meaning it would be possible to target the "uncroak the volcano" spell at a hex that didn't contain a volcano, since the spell could seek the nearest appropriate terrain hex to draw the appropriate Dirtamancy from in the exact same way as DigDoug's spell is doing here absent the "can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Hmm, I would make the argument that it is not exactly the same, as the spell was *uncroaking* a volcano in a caster link. I would say that it's not a Dirtamancy trap like the Lightning towers, the spell was basically Wanda's Uncroak applied to terrain, which then as a result became a dirtamancy trap. Essentially I am saying that I think Wanda/Sizemore Link would be able to cast such a spell on any hex anyway, but it would only then *do* something if there was some inert feature in the terrain to be taken advantage of. In comparison to Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule. I can see how it's not really settled and used some speculation, but that's where I would draw the distinction.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:55 pm

Mostly a rule question:

Let's say no attacker is at the gates, and Dove killed the king thus everybody else froze. And a barbarian walked up, climbed a wall, and saw everybody frozen.

1. Could he claim the city?

2. If so, would he have to kill all frozen defenders first?

3. If he claimed the city, would he then be the ruler? Just because he claimed a rulerless city, a capitol site?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Deezee » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:19 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:Mostly a rule question:

Let's say no attacker is at the gates, and Dove killed the king thus everybody else froze. And a barbarian walked up, climbed a wall, and saw everybody frozen.

1. Could he claim the city?

2. If so, would he have to kill all frozen defenders first?

3. If he claimed the city, would he then be the ruler? Just because he claimed a rulerless city, a capitol site?


While I don't know for sure, it was discussed a bit in Book 1 when Parson was trying to figure out what would happen if Stanley croaked. The city turns neutral, which (if I read it right) means that units inside are still capable of defending the city (so people inside wouldn't freeze or anything like that), but they're not capable of leaving the hex or popping new units, so it's only a matter of time before someone gathers sufficient units to wipe them out.

However, an invader would still need a large enough siege force to take the city, which either Numlock (finishing them off) or Delkey (reclaiming the city) wouldn't have too much trouble with, given time.

Although... what if it wasn't Numlock, but Delkey that was planning to croak Posbrake? Delkey has at least as much to gain, plus it would prove their point that his strategy was vulnerable, although in a very underhanded and fratricidal fashion. Now that would be a twist.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby cheeseaholic » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:35 am

I don't think that Carnymancers actually break rules. They seem to modify or create them instead. Change the tower spell to work on lightning in another hex, make a rule that the king can't be croaked by ranged attacks, making the side's expenditures seem to be legit (changing the "story" that the shmuckers tell). Making Silvia not be affected by the start of the turn might be a remove a rule, or it might be changing the rule to make a unit not heal at turn start instead of croak when 0 hp. Charlie himself seems to be a master of making rules with his contracts.

At the least, I suspect that there's far more to carnymancy than is let on by the carnymancers. Which seems to be par for the course.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Vreejack » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:44 am

Godzfirefly wrote:
Vreejack wrote:If Dove can kill off the king, Digdoug and the rest of the council, she can easily escape to the the MK without anyone realizing* she was a contractor.

Except for the escape to the MK part, since without Homekey there is no Homekey Portal...


Yes. Because Posbrake has no heir. And She would likely need to kill the heir anyway in order to cover her tracks. So that seems to be the one flaw in the plan, though a serious flaw. I am cautious about carneys being obstructed by what appears to be a single rule, though.

Let's think this through. She kills Posbrake, the MK portal disappears, all their units in the field disband, and all their cities go neutral. She slips back into the dungeon and waits, hiding the existence of her cell. Someone takes the city--perhaps Charlie in order raise it to recover his losses, perhaps someone else--and she emerges from hiding and claims her bounty. It seems riskier than the MK portal plan but she may have already made the arrangement with Charlie.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:13 am

Deezee wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Mostly a rule question:

Let's say no attacker is at the gates, and Dove killed the king thus everybody else froze. And a barbarian walked up, climbed a wall, and saw everybody frozen.

1. Could he claim the city?

2. If so, would he have to kill all frozen defenders first?

3. If he claimed the city, would he then be the ruler? Just because he claimed a rulerless city, a capitol site?


While I don't know for sure, it was discussed a bit in Book 1 when Parson was trying to figure out what would happen if Stanley croaked. The city turns neutral, which (if I read it right) means that units inside are still capable of defending the city (so people inside wouldn't freeze or anything like that), but they're not capable of leaving the hex or popping new units, so it's only a matter of time before someone gathers sufficient units to wipe them out.



What's the thing where the units become listless/unresponsive?

So neutral units would still have rations pop and upkeep paid? If they can't leave the keep they can't forage etc for food etc. Cannerfabalism? :)

Highest neutral warlord/commander would be the defacto leader, could order fight or surrender/turn.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Lilwik » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:18 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:Let's say no attacker is at the gates, and Dove killed the king thus everybody else froze.
The page that tells us the most about this is B1K12. Based on that page, I'm certain there is no "everybody else froze." A city is either entirely frozen (which is most of the time), or not frozen at all (because there are enemies in the city). If Dove kills the king, she is clearly an enemy who is attacking the city, which means the former Homekey soldiers (now neutrals) are free to kill her. Even after Dove dies no one would freeze because Delkey units would still be in the city, and the end of Homekey would also end the alliance. I doubt that Delkey and the neutrals would fight; instead I expect that the neutrals would mostly turn to Delkey and those that don't turn would be taken prisoner, then Delkey would claim the city.

OneHugeTuck wrote:And a barbarian walked up, climbed a wall, and saw everybody frozen.
By the time he starts climbing the wall the city would be unfrozen because it is under attack.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Could he claim the city?
According to B1K11, he can only do that if he controls the garrison, which means he would need to kill or capture everyone in the garrison.

OneHugeTuck wrote:If he claimed the city, would he then be the ruler?
Being the ruler has nothing to do with claiming a city. Faq had a ruler even though it had no cities in Book 0. So your barbarian would be the ruler if he already was the ruler of his side before he captured the city, as Banhammer became the ruler of Efbaum.

OneHugeTuck wrote:So neutral units would still have rations pop and upkeep paid?
They are frozen in time, so surely they don't require any upkeep.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby OneHugeTuck » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:30 am

So they freeze until attacked. Ok. Was missing that last part.

Would a barbarian climbing the walls automatically be 'attacking'? If they're frozen, he could just be exploring. If they were frozen and a gate was open, a barbarian (or member of another side) wouldn't necessarily be considered to be attacking.....(?)

So barbarians can live in cities/ruins but can't claim them, only rulers or members of a side claiming a city for their ruler can claim a city.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:53 am

Free Radical wrote:"can only be cast in a weather hex" limitation.


Denar wrote:Digdoug, who literally *cannot* create such a lightning tower upgrade without a Lightning Storm being present in the hex - the carnymancer breaks that rule.


When has that ever actually been stated to be a rule? I mean, we know how the trap works. Are you saying you believe he can't stick a metal rod on the roof of the Tower unless there's lightning around? I'd like some actual in story quotes where he says he physically can't put a metal pole on top of a tall building and wire it to the towers Shockmancy storage. Because I don't remember him ever saying that.
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