Digdoug - Episode 13

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:14 pm

Denar wrote:I'm sure he probably could just create a metal rod and stick it on a building. That wouldn't be a lightning trap though. Not in Erfworld.


We don't have any proof that that isn't exactly what he just did, but you're apparently unwilling to separate the construction of a trap with the construction of something that looks exactly like a trap, so I don't see any point in discussing it any more.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:55 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Denar wrote:I'm sure he probably could just create a metal rod and stick it on a building. That wouldn't be a lightning trap though. Not in Erfworld.


We don't have any proof that that isn't exactly what he just did, but you're apparently unwilling to separate the construction of a trap with the construction of something that looks exactly like a trap, so I don't see any point in discussing it any more.


No. What we've seen is that a Dirtamancer is required to use Dirtamancy to create a Lightning Trap in specifically a Lightning storm hex. If all it took, to make a magical lightning trap, was to stick a piece of metal on the city's tower, then Digdoug would not have been needed at all to make that upgrade in either cities. You would need proof to claim what *you're* saying is possible, that sticking a metal rod on a building thereby functions as the city's lightning trap.

And that's not what the argument's about at all, so your decision is probably for the best.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:10 pm

Denar wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Denar wrote:I'm sure he probably could just create a metal rod and stick it on a building. That wouldn't be a lightning trap though. Not in Erfworld.


We don't have any proof that that isn't exactly what he just did, but you're apparently unwilling to separate the construction of a trap with the construction of something that looks exactly like a trap, so I don't see any point in discussing it any more.


No. What we've seen is that a Dirtamancer is required to use Dirtamancy to create a Lightning Trap in specifically a Lightning storm hex. If all it took, to make a magical lightning trap, was to stick a piece of metal on the city's tower, then Digdoug would not have been needed at all to make that upgrade in either cities. You would need proof to claim what *you're* saying is possible, that sticking a metal rod on a building thereby functions as the city's lightning trap.

And that's not what the argument's about at all, so your decision is probably for the best.

Ah, no, I see the problem here. I'm not claiming that sticking a metal rod on a building functions as a city's lightning trap. I'm claiming that is part of making a lightning trap, and that part can be done regardless of terrain. The part where it actually becomes a trap, as opposed to just a metal stick, is the part that is in question. Dove could have cast her spell to make Digdoug think he was doing the second part as well, but he only managed the first part.

It's like... if he made a soft rock golem, it would have to have some kind of shape. He can make a piece of rock that is shaped like a golem, but that doesn't mean it is a golem. In the same way, he can make a metal rod on his tower that looks like a lightning trap, but that doesn't mean it is a lightning trap. It's kind of like if Dove told him she could let him create 1000 golems, but they wouldn't be able to move (or show stats or even seem like units at all) until an enemy entered the city. She could trick him into making the shape of 1000 golems, and he would think that he had 1000 golems because the spell she cast on him convinced him of that, but all he would have is something that looked like 1000 golems. Dove could have told him she had let him make a lightning trap, but all she did was have him make something that looked like a lightning trap, but he is convinced it actually is a lightning trap because that's what the spell told him.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:27 pm

Looks like we're mostly in agreement then.

Yeah I'm saying that, Digdoug could create metal structures anywhere he likes, but the magic of the Lightning Trap is that it is made to interact with the terrain, store lightning bolts as charges and fire them off. So he can't create a Lightning Trap unless it has the terrain to interact with. As we see from his words, knowing where the lightning is coming from was a necessary part of the spell. Dove's carnymancy, applied to him, let him ignore that rule while casting and he understood how the trap would still function (knowledge he lost after completing the spell). Now that - coupled with how he's seen Dove trick other casters into believing a "show", like the Moneymancer and his books - is why he's not sure whether it will now work, even though he thinks he was sure at the time.

Dove could have told him she had let him make a lightning trap, but all she did was have him make something that looked like a lightning trap, but he is convinced it actually is a lightning trap because that's what the spell told him.


Yup, just like with the Moneymancer. I'm sure that audits belong to the realm of Natural Moneymancy, that it's a given that they straight-up list the expenditures/income of a side, which would be secondary nature to him. He's convinced the audits are telling the truth because that's what the magic in Natural Moneymancy tells them to do. And now that Digdoug knows that Dove can even fool casters about matters of their own disciplines, (and with no remembrance of how he satisfied the conditions of his own spell) he's left wondering whether he created an actual lightning trap, or created the "fake audit" version
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:46 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As per the episode 14, Digdoug basically states that just because he built the trap doesn't mean it'll necessarily work. He thinks Dove's spell did what he wanted, but he can't be sure. If he isn't sure, but he made the trap, then making the trap doesn't require a storm hex. Making it work does.


Actually, the implication of Episode 14 was that Digdoug did know it would work while he was building the trap and that (like when a linked caster is unlinked) he just can't quite remember how he made it work once the spell is not on him anymore. That's no reason to believe that it won't work any more than Sizemore's inability to remember how uncroaking the volcano worked means it couldn't be done again.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:12 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As per the episode 14, Digdoug basically states that just because he built the trap doesn't mean it'll necessarily work. He thinks Dove's spell did what he wanted, but he can't be sure. If he isn't sure, but he made the trap, then making the trap doesn't require a storm hex. Making it work does.


Actually, the implication of Episode 14 was that Digdoug did know it would work while he was building the trap and that (like when a linked caster is unlinked) he just can't quite remember how he made it work once the spell is not on him anymore. That's no reason to believe that it won't work any more than Sizemore's inability to remember how uncroaking the volcano worked means it couldn't be done again.

Except that he admitted that Dove could have just cast a spell to fool him into thinking it worked, just like she cast (and continues to cast) a spell to convince Delkey's moneymancer that the numbers for their side's spending works out. So yeah, there is plenty of reason to believe that the trap won't work, since, as Peck points out, they really only have the world of a mercenary carnymancer that it'll work.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:58 pm

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And, I still find it amazing how people are willing to trust Peck's distrust more than pretty much everyone else's trust of the situation. Like Digdoug said, Peck doesn't put his faith in much of anything. Dove is allied with Homekey. She is getting paid. What about that situation screams traitor to you? The general prejudice against Carnymancers? Do you think that Predictamancers are bad, too, since there's a general prejudice against them, too?
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:02 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And, I still find it amazing how people are willing to trust Peck's distrust more than pretty much everyone else's trust of the situation. Like Digdoug said, Peck doesn't put his faith in much of anything. Dove is allied with Homekey. She is getting paid. What about that situation screams traitor to you? The general prejudice against Carnymancers? Do you think that Predictamancers are bad, too, since there's a general prejudice against them, too?

I'm not saying that the trap won't work or can't work, I'm saying that it is possible that it might not work. I'm not advocating one way or the other on what will happen, only what is possible. It is entirely possible that the trap will work as advertised. It is entirely possible that Digdoug just put a piece of metal on the tower that won't do anything.

I still find it amazing how people take stating that something is possible as stating that it is a fact.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Godzfirefly » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:08 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I'm saying that it is possible that it might not work.


Actually, that part isn't what I was disagreeing with. The part I was disagreeing with was:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As per the episode 14, Digdoug basically states that just because he built the trap doesn't mean it'll necessarily work. He thinks Dove's spell did what he wanted, but he can't be sure. If he isn't sure, but he made the trap, then making the trap doesn't require a storm hex. Making it work does.


His unsureness about how the trap was created should not be taken as evidence that he can normally create the seeming of (or Signamancy for) a Lightning Trap without actually creating a Lightning Trap. Not when he was under a Carnymancer spell while he was making that seeming/Signamancy.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Shai_hulud » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:16 am

Denar wrote:Yeah I'm saying that, Digdoug could create metal structures anywhere he likes, but the magic of the Lightning Trap is that it is made to interact with the terrain

DD Episode 3
Weatherbug had an awful tower. The squat little thing was only a stone cylinder with a few slit holes and a conical, pavilion-style roof which left the lookout platform open to the elements. The metal spire on top of that roof got hit by lightning fifty times every turn, and at some point he would probably stop dropping to the floor on his stomach every time that happened. He hoped. But it was well built and well grounded. Whoever had constructed the spire knew what they were doing, or maybe they had learned by trial and error. Anyway, he wouldn’t need to do anything major to the basic engineering of the thing.

Digdoug didn't build the lightning rod, building it didn't require a special Dirtamancy spell unique to that terrain, nor did the spire require a special enchantment on it in order to interact with the terrain.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 13

Postby Denar » Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:15 am

Shai_hulud wrote:
Denar wrote:Yeah I'm saying that, Digdoug could create metal structures anywhere he likes, but the magic of the Lightning Trap is that it is made to interact with the terrain

DD Episode 3
Weatherbug had an awful tower. The squat little thing was only a stone cylinder with a few slit holes and a conical, pavilion-style roof which left the lookout platform open to the elements. The metal spire on top of that roof got hit by lightning fifty times every turn, and at some point he would probably stop dropping to the floor on his stomach every time that happened. He hoped. But it was well built and well grounded. Whoever ha

d constructed the spire knew what they were doing, or maybe they had learned by trial and error. Anyway, he wouldn’t need to do anything major to the basic engineering of the thing.

Digdoug didn't build the lightning rod, building it didn't require a special Dirtamancy spell unique to that terrain, nor did the spire require a special enchantment on it in order to interact with the terrain.


Again, that's a lightning rod, and not a Lightning Trap. Which required him to cast a spell. You literally missed out the very next part of that same episode, where he describes the process of actually making one

Gah. Okay, enough. Work time. He turned and looked at the structure of the tower, using his special Dirtamancy senses to feel out the metal shaft of the spire within the stonework and wood. Let’s see, he’d had a plan here...oh, right. He was going to start with spell storage...


Finally, in our most recent update, the creation of a lightning trap is said to involve the placement of a metal spire. In fact, your quote *proves* that it is more than just a metal spire, because you've just shown exactly that a metal spire is *not* a Lightning Trap. For the reasons I've listed above and previously, we know that there is more to his spell than placing a piece of metal on the tower.

You also carefully selected the first part of my quote to leave out information I had said

and store lightning bolts as charges and fire them off.


See, when you don't take what I said out of context, comparing a lightning Trap to the metal spire at Weatherbug doesn't make as much sense.
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