Digdoug - Episode 12

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:14 pm

Lilwik wrote:
goodmorning wrote:If you kill the king and the side is disbanded, is there anyone left to have the contract with? So if Charlie breaks the contract and kills Posbrake, will the contract penalties still be enforced?
Contracts are magically binding, which seems to mean that they physically enforce themselves. Parson is unable to lie to Charlie about the results of the calculations that Parson performs for Charlie, and Wanda is unable to talk about the events in Haffaton. Therefore I think we can safely guess that Charlie will be physically incapable of attacking Posbrake until after Charlie pays the penalty clause to get out of the contract. Of course, that wouldn't make any difference if Charlie captured the city and took the treasury, because that would cause the entire penalty payment plus more to be returned to Charlie.


Except that Posbrake is right. Charlie doesn't capture cities. The Archons were pretty clear on that when explaining it to Parson.

And, it is entirely probable that the contract includes payment after the job is done, too, so Charlie would be forfeiting that payment as well. Whether the Homekey payment plus the severance fee is greater than the bounty, I don't know. But, it isn't likely to be enough less than the bounty price to make the increased risk and damage to his reputation worthwhile.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby El_Chupacabra » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:06 pm

A Ranged Melee Attack:

Image

... Think of the folder as an Archon and the King as... well.... A Goner.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby El_Chupacabra » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:11 pm

Lipkin wrote:No, it's pretty clear. Haffaton was stated to have 16 capital sites, with a ton of other cities. Why make the distinction if it's an arbitrary choice? Also, Stanley fled to the ruins of Faq because it was a capital site.



...Might be they were former capitals of other empires, so the distinction was that Haffaton had captured at least 16 capitals of enemy empires, and probably 16 empires. Just to indicate how much Haffaton had eliminated, not to suggest they'd capture 16 cities that would qualify as capitals and the others could not.

Don't really have a dog in this fight, but that explanation occurred to me.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby El_Chupacabra » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:14 pm

Lilwik wrote:
goodmorning wrote:If you kill the king and the side is disbanded, is there anyone left to have the contract with? So if Charlie breaks the contract and kills Posbrake, will the contract penalties still be enforced?
Contracts are magically binding, which seems to mean that they physically enforce themselves. Parson is unable to lie to Charlie about the results of the calculations that Parson performs for Charlie, and Wanda is unable to talk about the events in Haffaton. Therefore I think we can safely guess that Charlie will be physically incapable of attacking Posbrake until after Charlie pays the penalty clause to get out of the contract. Of course, that wouldn't make any difference if Charlie captured the city and took the treasury, because that would cause the entire penalty payment plus more to be returned to Charlie.


Which begs the question: if the breaking of contract eliminates the side you've had the contract with, who does the penalty pay out to?

Would seem silly to have a contract pay a "dead" side, but perhaps it goes into the treasury and promptly vanishes, like the side.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby atalex » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:54 pm

He may indeed be a treacherous schemer, but he has no idea what a little Carnymancy can do to one’s best-laid plans.


Ironically, this line makes me think Posbrake and the side are safe, even if I can't see how. The fact that Posbrake would say something like that as the last line of the episode, thus demonstrating his ignorance of a vitally important fact that we all know, would seem to indicate that he is doomed. However, it so obviously means that he is doomed (and Rob is such a master of the unexpected twist) that, in fact, he really can't be doomed, although his actual plan will somehow get screwed nine ways to Sunday by Carnymancy.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Omnimancer » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:03 pm

Unless Rob is pulling a double Xanatos, where Posbrake seems so doomed it's obvious he's not doomed that it'll be shocking if he is doomed.

Of course it could be a triple Xanatos, where he isn't doomed, because Rob expects we expect a double Xanatos.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Chevalier » Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:25 pm

I don't think we'll need to worry about Dove's spell not working as advertised; Posbrake's error will be in assuming he need not worry about melee attacks. This reminds me very much of a scene in The Lies of Locke Lamora. At the risk of a slight spoiler - a character is under a very similar spell, protecting him at least from any ranged attacks, and possibly blades as well (can't remember exactly). He believes this means he can't be harmed - right up until he's nearly beaten to death with blunt objects. So it's not the spell failing; it's failing to anticipate how the spell may be circumvented. I expect it's most likely Dove will kill him, just after her contract expires (and possibly just as a contract with someone else takes effect), but I could see a misdirected or mind-controlled loyal unit committing regicide as well.

The big question, as others have pointed out, is whether the dramatic irony of Posbrake's last line is in earnest, meaning he's doomed, or meant by the author to mislead the comic's savvy readers.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:00 pm

I'm still convinced that if Posbrake's plan fails, it will be due to Chief Warlord Peck not trusting the plan and improvising. Posbrake's definitely ignoring his warlord's discontent.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Lamech » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:22 pm

I still think the fatal flaw is next turn. The contract is called iron clad. It probably has rules about tricky magics. And entering any zone other than the airspace. If Dove is the treacher she would kill the king at night and run to the portal. Doing it in combat would require running back to the portal through the whole tower. She'd probably get croaked.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Althernai » Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:30 pm

Things are clearly not going to go the way Posbrake thinks they will, but that doesn't mean he is doomed. Charlie probably knows more about magic in general (and almost certainly Carnymancy in particular) than any other Erfworld unit we've met, but he doesn't know everything. For example, it took him a long time to figure out what happened at the end of the battle for Gobwin Knob. Given the title of the story, maybe Dirtamancy can somehow save the day for Homekey despite the betrayal of the Carnymancer(s)?

I kind of feel bad for Posbrake. Of all the Royal overlords we've seen, his tactics are closest to Parson's out-of-the-box thinking. Unfortunately for him, he lacks Parson's tendency to relentlessly question every aspect of his own plans and every possible enemy contingency.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby MonteCristo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:04 pm

Flaw i see in the plan is what happens the turn after the fake fight. Nothing really stopping Charlie from turning his forces around and making another un-contracted run on the capitol. And this time the capitol will have used up much of their air defenses

Althernai wrote:I kind of feel bad for Posbrake. Of all the Royal overlords we've seen, his tactics are closest to Parson's out-of-the-box thinking. Unfortunately for him, he lacks Parson's tendency to relentlessly question every aspect of his own plans and every possible enemy contingency.


I wouldn't say that. Afterall, Posbrake is quite clearly thinking about the possibility Charlie breaking contract and turning this into a real attack. However as Parson's points out, good strategy is not about one perfect plan, but about rolling with the punches; you can't predict everything your enemy does so you are bound to get blindsided by something and will have to compensate. If you recall, Parson has had plenty of plans that screwed up for him because the enemy found a way around his plans
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Lamech » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:10 pm

Althernai wrote:Things are clearly not going to go the way Posbrake thinks they will, but that doesn't mean he is doomed. Charlie probably knows more about magic in general (and almost certainly Carnymancy in particular) than any other Erfworld unit we've met, but he doesn't know everything. For example, it took him a long time to figure out what happened at the end of the battle for Gobwin Knob. Given the title of the story, maybe Dirtamancy can somehow save the day for Homekey despite the betrayal of the Carnymancer(s)?

I kind of feel bad for Posbrake. Of all the Royal overlords we've seen, his tactics are closest to Parson's out-of-the-box thinking. Unfortunately for him, he lacks Parson's tendency to relentlessly question every aspect of his own plans and every possible enemy contingency.

Oh yeah, here would be my plan for defeating archons with dirtamancy:

Assumption 1) Archons even with shockamancy don't have much in the way of anti-building power. Specifically any damage they can do to heavy structures like stone or metal would be more than countered by a Digdoug
Assumption 2) Dirtamancers don't need line of sight to fire traps or alter the terrain. They can sense it straight through the dirt.
Plan:
Step 1) Create a secure panic room in the dungeon. Something that requires siege/digging to break through that the archons won't have. The king will hide here during the real attack.
Step 2) Add "trap doors" to all entrances to the tower. Or maybe just trap rooms leading into dungeon access. You know the security cages you see on malls? Things like that, and have them come down when Digdoug triggers them.
Step 3) Wait for the archons to attack. Put up no air defense. Archons descend into tower. Trigger the trap doors. The archons wail pointlessly against their cage. Digdoug then slaughters them at will. Or more likely they negotiate a new deal with Charlie. Archons sell for OVER 9000! so the king can offer a bulk discount with a guarantee of peace. Now the prophecy is void and the air attack issue is solved. Plus Delkey get's to see the awesomeness that is Posbrake.

But seriously: archons are snipers. They are fragile, but hard to hit. Deny them that advantage. Make them fight in an area where anything out of place is obvious. Make them fight in close quarters.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby bladestorm » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:13 pm

Lamech wrote:I still think the fatal flaw is next turn. The contract is called iron clad. It probably has rules about tricky magics. And entering any zone other than the airspace. If Dove is the treacher she would kill the king at night and run to the portal. Doing it in combat would require running back to the portal through the whole tower. She'd probably get croaked.

Or the king could do his nightly visit to her chamber, which is right next to the portal. Not that far for her to run. For that matter, last story, we got a visual of the disbanding process. Maybe in this one, we get a visual of what happens when a non-caster enters the portal. Stanley mused over his own portal, knowing for certain it would end GK as a side if he so much as touched it. Bea's entrance into the portal was not very detailed.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Lilwik » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:20 pm

MonteCristo wrote:I wouldn't say that. Afterall, Posbrake is quite clearly thinking about the possibility Charlie breaking contract and turning this into a real attack.
We really know very little about Posbrake. We know that he's a clever guy, willing to look beyond conventional wisdom and respected by his people, but we don't know enough to put any limits to his cleverness. Until this update we've never even seen him make a mistake, and even underestimating Charlie in this way shouldn't be a disaster, since Charlie is technically supposed to be on Homekey's team. I think we can safely guess that Posbrake isn't on Parson's level just because no Erfworlder can be quite on Parson's level. Erfworld indoctrinates people at birth to a way of thinking, while Parson questions everything.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Free Radical » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:49 pm

Chevalier wrote:I don't think we'll need to worry about Dove's spell not working as advertised; Posbrake's error will be in assuming he need not worry about melee attacks.

He actually has good reason for believing that though, it's not just a case of "it would be too hard for them to engage me in melee and they're mainly ranged units anyway".
When Charlie’s Archons arrive, I will go and face them. I shall be standing on the tower, sword drawn, stacked with my Chief Warlord and screened by a Dirtamancer and his golems. The protection bonuses on me will be unmatched.”

Peck rolled his eyes. “All well and good if they land, Sire. But one crit from one of those flying—”

Peck even agrees that his defence would be excellent if they land - he's the one who brings up the problem of ranged combat being able to bypass what he agrees is "unmatched protection bonuses", for what should be the second-choice attack mode of an attack force of Archons.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby Chevalier » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:00 pm

Oh, certainly he has good reason to think that way. But he still doesn't seem to see any danger from directions other than the archons, and I suspect that will be his downfall.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby auraseer » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:11 pm

Godzfirefly wrote:Except that Posbrake is right. Charlie doesn't capture cities. The Archons were pretty clear on that when explaining it to Parson.

This is true, but would regicide automatically capture the city?

The Archons will be in the airspace. They can shoot at units on the tower without ever landing, without setting foot in the garrison to claim it.

We know that if the King croaks, units in the city become neutral and can take no turn. They go into suspended animation until/unless they are attacked. The Archons could withdraw from the battle, let the city forces freeze, and then have no fear of pursuit or counterattack. Numloch could take their time building up their forces without opposition, before conquering the capitol at their leisure.

As for how they croak the King without shooting him, I expect we'll see him tricked or forced into falling off the tower.

I'm imagining Charlie will take advantage of some side effect of the Carnymancy spell. Maybe he'll invoke some Carnymancy of his own, like "every unit on the tower is struck by a 1-point ranged attack", and the interaction between the two spells forces the King not to be on top of the tower anymore.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby lonetrey » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:48 pm

So Posbrake thinks a little Carnymancy will protect him? "No range attacks on me for a turn!"

What's to stop Charlie from casting "All range attacks registers as melee attacks for a turn!" ???
Or something to that effect?

Beat Carnymancy with Carnymancy. :shock:
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby twhitt » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:48 pm

Tinfoil hat time.
1) Charlie makes the decapitation strike, losing the penalty clause but gaining the bounty; Charlie is net positive.
2) Homekey the side is ended; Dove's contract with Homekey is ended.
3) The city of Homekey is host to parties with many varied allegiances:
3a) Former units of Homekey, which are probably not frozen due to active combat;
3b) Units of Delkey, which are almost definitely not frozen;
3c) Charlie;
3d) Any support force from Numlock;
3e) Dove.
4) Barbarian commanders can capture cities, including capturing a capital site and the treasury thereof.
Therefore...
5) Archons and Dove eliminate remaining defenders, Charlie evacuates, and Dove claims the city and the treasury.

All the contracts are met or ended, no one violated their principles, and the two Carnymancers make out like bandits at the expense of every other unit and side.

/Tinfoil
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 12

Postby MonteCristo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:55 pm

Lilwik wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:I wouldn't say that. Afterall, Posbrake is quite clearly thinking about the possibility Charlie breaking contract and turning this into a real attack.
We really know very little about Posbrake. We know that he's a clever guy, willing to look beyond conventional wisdom and respected by his people, but we don't know enough to put any limits to his cleverness. Until this update we've never even seen him make a mistake, and even underestimating Charlie in this way shouldn't be a disaster, since Charlie is technically supposed to be on Homekey's team. I think we can safely guess that Posbrake isn't on Parson's level just because no Erfworlder can be quite on Parson's level. Erfworld indoctrinates people at birth to a way of thinking, while Parson questions everything.


Questioning everything is exactly what Posbrake has been doing. Its the whole reason why he's adopting a new conquest strategy, why he uses dirtamancy for fortifications instead of golems, for why he's experimenting with predictamancy and carnymancy. ALL of it goes against the common thinking that he and so many other rulers were raised with.
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