Digdoug - Episode 11

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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Vanvidum » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:35 pm

ruleno2 wrote:It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby SNfinity » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:47 pm

Vanvidum wrote:
ruleno2 wrote:It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.


Only a smart ruler would do that, and we know how few of those there are. Of the people we've seen who have both the authority and the inclination, there's just Parson and possibly Posbrake, plus Charlie who doesn't count because he is a carnymancer, and Empress Saltina whose side fell.

There are probably two or three people who know the secret. It's not nearly as well guarded as Charlie's secrets, nor as valuable, and yet there are people who know Charlie's secrets just the same. Erfworld hates both the spreading of information and the keeping of secrets.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby ruleno2 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:13 pm

Vanvidum wrote:
ruleno2 wrote:It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.


I suspect in Erfworld "honesty" is as malleable as Fate is to a Carny. One could tell only the truth while still avoiding the question. If the Ruler ordered them not to expend juice, however - I wonder what would happen. My speculation is a Carnymancer without juice would have more difficulty reading and reacting properly, and so might get caught in a lie or be unable to manipulate the situation as well, especially if dealing with new, unreadable personalities. I reckon they would fall back on natural Carnymancy (the simple skill of reading people and being an experienced conversationalist) but might not have the deftness of a juiced-up Carny - having to rely on cold reading and stereotyping rather than a magical sense of the situation and people.

As an aside - if Carnymancy is this sense of how to twist a story (even Fate's story) to your own ends, then Charlie really is playing the ultimate DM role.

There are probably two or three people who know the secret. It's not nearly as well guarded as Charlie's secrets, nor as valuable, and yet there are people who know Charlie's secrets just the same. Erfworld hates both the spreading of information and the keeping of secrets.

I suspect Dove's hint about the "secrets" of Carnymancy was used more as a deterrent and scapegoat for any perceived dishonesty than it was an actual secret. You know a carny has "tricks of the trade" - and if you knew them you'd be able to watch out for them - but the carny telling them could be just another part of the trick - the distracting reveal to hide a deeper trick. The secret is plain from the start - they manipulate. Having a "secret" to their discipline is a ruse - it's a sheet over a cage to make you think there's more than you think you know.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Ambug666 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:23 pm

I've been suspicious of Dove ever since she was "coincidentally" the first caster Doug ran into in the MK.

I'm just not sure who she's really working for: an outside force to take the side down, or herself to become the power behind the throne. I'm leaning toward outside force, since that possibility has not been mentioned in the story while the other one has.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:57 pm

ruleno2 wrote:If this update appears to not really show what Carnymancy's about, then the Carnymancy worked on you. I think we just got a full demonstration of it.
I really love this theory of Carnymancy. It's heavy on speculation, but it's speculation that I think could easily turn out to be true in the end. I just wish that this story would stop teasing us with peeks at the nature of Carnymancy and finally really explain it to us. This could be our one shot, and when Dove leaves the story that will be the last peek we will get into Carnymancy for a long time.

My biggest problem with this theory is that it only explains in terms of manipulating people. I can understand manipulating people, and I can see how this whole episode could be Digdoug being skillfully manipulated. Maybe Dove was even standing guard over that portal specifically to prevent Digdoug from trying to get answers in the Magic Kingdom.

The part I don't quite follow is extending that to other things. Carnymancy can prevent an incapacitated unit from croaking. What kind of trickery can do that? Is a wound not really a wound? A wound is actually a show, of course, because everything is a show, but who is supposed to be watching that show and who is Carnymancy tricking? Everyone must have been tricked because anyone could see Sylvia's wounds. If everyone was tricked, then does that mean that Sylvia really did croak, and the trick is making everyone believe that she was still alive for all those turns until the exploding dwagon dusted her? If so, then surely that piece of debris didn't really deflect that arrow; it was just what Carnymancy convinced everyone to see because it was necessary to maintain the illusion that Sylvia was alive. Of course, by this theory there probably isn't even a difference between reality and a trick, because everything is a show, so an illusion of Sylvia being alive is identical to her actually being alive.

Is that making any sense? I hope so, because it doesn't sound like it makes sense to me.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lipkin » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:29 pm

The show is for Erf World. All the world is a stage, and we are merely players. If everyone is a player, either you are performing just for the sake of performing, or the world itself is the audience. When something happens that is not in the script during a stage show, the show doesn't stop. The performers have to think on their feet to recover and continue forward. If they do it really well, the audience may not even notice, or if they do notice, they may not mind, or be impressed. The characters don't acknowledge that something world breaking has happened, because that would break the world more.

So Sylvia was meant to die, but Jojo went off script and decided to save her. It shouldn't be possible, but the rest of the characters went with it, because it would ruin the show if they didn't.


Long story short?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI

There is no Sylvia. Never was.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:26 pm

Lipkin wrote:There is no Sylvia. Never was.
I agree, Digdoug is forcing us to consider spoon-based theories of magic. It reminds me of B0E31.

In a way, all magic shows us that reality is not what it seems to be. For example, Dirtamancy shows us that dirt isn't merely the inanimate lump of matter that it appears to be; there is something about the dirt that obeys the commands of a Dirtamancer. Now we hear that dirt isn't really dirt; it's just putting on a show of being dirt, and that suggests Dirtamancers are seeing through that facade. Dirtamancers don't seem to think of it as a facade, probably because they see through it so completely that they're not even aware that there is a facade. To a Dirtamancer dirt is a animate thing that will move when ordered, which is radically different from what everyone else sees. Carnymancers and Signamancers may be the only ones who are able to see the facade for what it is.

Perhaps you need Life, Matter, and Fate axes in order to see the facade. In other words, you need those axes to both see the spoon and see that there is no spoon. That explains why it would only be possible for Signamancy and Carnymancy. In addition, Carnymancy has Motion, which might be what allows Carnymancers to manipulate the show.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lipkin » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:54 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:There is no Sylvia. Never was.
I agree, Digdoug is forcing us to consider spoon-based theories of magic. It reminds me of B0E31.

Perhaps you need Life, Matter, and Fate axes in order to see the facade. In other words, you need those axes to both see the spoon and see that there is no spoon. That explains why it would only be possible for Signamancy and Carnymancy. In addition, Carnymancy has Motion, which might be what allows Carnymancers to manipulate the show.

Makes sense. You and I agree so rarely, I think it must be true.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby atalex » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:14 am

I must admit that I can't help but be suspicious of Dove simply because she's a Carnymancer. Mainly, because we know that Charlie (the presumptive Villain) is a Carnymancer and every other Carnymancer we've seen has been working for him (wittingly or unwittingly).
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Omnimancer » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:17 am

Lipkin wrote:
Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:There is no Sylvia. Never was.
I agree, Digdoug is forcing us to consider spoon-based theories of magic. It reminds me of B0E31.

Perhaps you need Life, Matter, and Fate axes in order to see the facade. In other words, you need those axes to both see the spoon and see that there is no spoon. That explains why it would only be possible for Signamancy and Carnymancy. In addition, Carnymancy has Motion, which might be what allows Carnymancers to manipulate the show.

Makes sense. You and I agree so rarely, I think it must be true.


Now you're all sounding like the court of Faq :p

It might be one of those things where there's multiple ways of viewing things, and all of them are right. And in sense, Erfworld is a big show scripted by fate (and Rob).

Predictamancers are good at taking their cues and hitting their mark. Carnymancers are skilled at stealing the show.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:23 am

atalex wrote:I must admit that I can't help but be suspicious of Dove simply because she's a Carnymancer. Mainly, because we know that Charlie (the presumptive Villain) is a Carnymancer and every other Carnymancer we've seen has been working for him (wittingly or unwittingly).


Have they all been working for (or with) Charlie? I'm not sure. Certainly casters had reason to be upset about the way Parson was using the Magic Kingdom even without Charlie's intervention; the Carnymancers weren't alone in opposing him there, and presumably not all who opposed Parson worked for Charlie. Certainly Jojo is working with Charlie (or seems to be.) But, who's to say for sure that all the carnies are? When Jojo had to change gears after receiving new orders, he had to convince the other Carnymancers to go along with them rather than even hinting that it was new orders.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby arbo » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:19 am

Carnymancers have Medium Awareness.

They know Erfworld is just a story. They know it’s being written by Rob Balder, the Titan. They know everything is a show, and the show is being put on for us, the audience, across the Fourth Wall. That’s their secret.

They can’t tell anyone because, well... if a Carnymancer, in-story, told anyone this is just a story... that would instantly end the story, because we the audience would also learn it, dispel the mystery, lose interest and turn away.

Perhaps towards the endgame Rob pulls a Grant Morrison and gets Charlie to tell Parson the truth, and no one else, as a plot point; as that would be the only way to get away with it, because it would be actually contributing to the story. The show must go on, they know that.

Carnymancy’s power is not breaking game rules so something can happen. It is the ability to make anything happen without a reason, anything at all, if it advances the plot without breaking our Willing Suspension of Disbelief. No explanation given.

Just like in stage magic, our belief is the limit of their powers, and that’s why they’d never tell how they do it. As long as we keep coming here to speculate what the exact mechanics of Carnymancy are, they’re home free. If we ever realize there are no mechanics… they’re doomed.

(On a side note: I don’t think Signamancers are aware of that, at least not as wholly as Carnymancers. They do realize nothing is real, all things are just a show of everchanging appearances, illustrations that fit a story. But they can’t see the story. Carnymancers can.)
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby StClair » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:22 am

Uncharitable though it may be, I note that Dove zeroed in on something that made Doug uncomfortable - that she's doing it with the King - and kept pushing that button until he decided not only to stop talking to her, but to abandon his plan to seek answers in the MK.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby arbo » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:35 am

Denar wrote:
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players...



It just dawned on me that the word for "player" is the same one as the word for "player"...

Well played, Denar. Well played.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lilwik » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:48 am

arbo wrote:They know Erfworld is just a story. They know it’s being written by Rob Balder, the Titan. They know everything is a show, and the show is being put on for us, the audience, across the Fourth Wall. That’s their secret.
I can't believe that Erfworld would ever break the fourth wall. Erfworld just isn't that sort of story.

Aside from that, I wonder if it's really all Carnymancers who would know so much, or if it's just Charlie. Remember that when Charlie got the Arkendish something changed in him, as though the Titanic Eyemancy of his tool had opened his eyes to something shocking. Charlie may be the only unit ever in the history of Erfworld to be both a master Carnymancer and a master Thinkamancer, and those two skills together may allow him to see so far beyond the show that he can actually see through the fourth wall.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lipkin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:25 am

It may not be Rob that Charlie is fighting, but it may definitely be a Tron situation where the Charlie is rebelling against his creators. Like, he's seeing into Stupid World, but not our world. Because Erf and Stupid World are undeniably linked in some way.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Deezee » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:36 am

Vanvidum wrote:
ruleno2 wrote:It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.


Odds are good that a Carnymancer would say a bit more, but still not the whole truth. After all, there are things Thinkamancers don't tell their rulers despite Duty.
I expect a Duty-bound Carnymancer would be more thorough about explaining WHAT they can do, but would say no more about HOW it works.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Lipkin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:03 am

Deezee wrote:
Vanvidum wrote:
ruleno2 wrote:It was all an elaborate play - executed perfectly - because that's what Carnies do. They know you know their game is rigged - but they manage to convince you, for just long enough, that because they like you it doesn't matter if it's rigged. You can do it - it's only rigged for everyone else.


This makes me wonder what a Carnymancer would or could say to a Ruler they popped under if they were questioned about their discipline, and/or ordered into honesty.


Odds are good that a Carnymancer would say a bit more, but still not the whole truth. After all, there are things Thinkamancers don't tell their rulers despite Duty.
I expect a Duty-bound Carnymancer would be more thorough about explaining WHAT they can do, but would say no more about HOW it works.

Especially if explaining how it works would effect their ability to do it. Then they would be duty bound NOT to tell.
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Morni » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:12 am

I'm putting my erfworld tin-hat on.

A carnymancer can use their juice without "casting", but they must touch the target.

I notice that when a Carnymancer is trying to convince someone, they like to touch people.

in the last few update with Dove, I've notice she likes to touch/rub.

I went and double check. and yes Jo-dirt was touched before using his juice with no paiement.
http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -07-20.jpg

Digdoug episode 11:
“Please!” she laughed again, gently touching his shoulder. “Have I even seen the throne? I live in a dungeon now.”


Digdoug episode 9:
She aimed a grin squarely at Posbrake, and Digdoug was pretty sure she rubbed the King’s leg with hers again. Bucky gave her a glance.


Digdoug episode 8:
“I was kiddiiing,” said the woman, grinning and touching his shoulder lightly.


edit fix the quote tags
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Re: Digdoug - Episode 11

Postby Godzfirefly » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:28 am

Morni wrote:A carnymancer can use their juice without "casting", but they must touch the target.

I notice that when a Carnymancer is trying to convince someone, they like to touch people.

in the last few update with Dove, I've notice she likes to touch/rub.


That is actually a common psychiatrist/conman trick in our real world. It fools the brain into being more receptive to what is being said. So, in Erfworld, that would probably be referred to as Natural Carnymancy.
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