Lord Crush - Part 2

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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lilwik » Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:19 am

Free Radical wrote:From when Wanda briefly became Overlord of Goodminton, we know that her Ruler senses disappeared when she became a barbarian.
"Those new senses she'd been given went dark just as suddenly as they'd come to her, although she could now sense the upkeep of the units she was stacked with."
Is that really her sense disappearing? It doesn't answer one critical question: do her senses go dark because she ceases to be a ruler, or do they go dark because she no longer has anyone to rule? It's the difference between not being able to hear and being in silence. Given that Jillian used "I’m not a Ruler" as proof that her father was alive, I think we have no choice but to conclude that Wanda continued to be ruler of Goodminton until she turned to Haffaton. If Jillian had said something like, "I never became a ruler" then she might have been referring to a passing moment of being a ruler, but instead she actually seemed to expect that if Banhammer had died then she would still be a ruler.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lipkin » Fri Dec 27, 2013 12:27 pm

The senses going dark could signify the cities going neutral.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby nargbop » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:52 pm

Wanda lost her Ruler senses when she stopped being a Ruler, because all of her cities had been conquered, and she didn't have a Side anymore. It was just her and her eight-stack, because there was no Side to support the other units any more.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby nargbop » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:53 pm

Strategic considerations for the Main Storyline :
Books might be copyable. It's obvious to Parson, maybe not to Erfworlders. After all, books are "secret" resources, which strengthen all enemies when shared.
Books might be movable out of the original city. If books can be moved out, then it would make sense for the Magic Kingdom to have a large, completely shared library.
Books might be untrustworthy, if they are copyable. Readers may not trust copied or given books.

And the Big One :
Books Parson publishes won't appear unless someone builds a new library or expands their existing one. Both of those are intentional (and unusual?) actions.

Possible Trimancer power :
Thinkamancer-Foolamancer-Signamancer might be able to make the new book appear visually before all of the rulers in the world immediately.

People have mentioned these before, but there's two courses that come to mind
A. Write an Expose about Charlie and Vanity Publish it. Gather allies thereby.
B. Fabricate an accurate history about Gobwin Knob and publish it as if the side ended. Charlie sends significant forces for the Arkentool. Sneak attack Charlie's capital. This idea has so many ways to fail, but fake-insurrection by Parson, after he explicitly said that he would do it to Charlie, is so sweet.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lilwik » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:07 am

nargbop wrote:Books might be copyable.
I think we can consider that certain. Erfworlders are capable of writing, so nothing could prevent copying.
nargbop wrote:Books might be movable out of the original city.
There's no "might" about that, since we know books can be moved from Lord Crush, Part 1.

nargbop wrote:Books Parson publishes won't appear unless someone builds a new library or expands their existing one. Both of those are intentional (and unusual?) actions.
I'm sure they are unusual in peace time, but Erfworld is rarely at peace and whenever a city is razed and rebuilt it would get a new library. Capitals might not get new books very often, but contested border cities would probably see a steady flow of books.

nargbop wrote:A. Write an Expose about Charlie and Vanity Publish it. Gather allies thereby.
Unfortunately publishing is very expensive and only puts your book in a few libraries. Combine that with the fact that many warlords don't bother reading books and of those that do read some won't believe the expose, and of those that believe some won't care.

nargbop wrote:B. Fabricate an accurate history about Gobwin Knob and publish it as if the side ended.
That plan would require a way to ensure that Charlie learned about the book's existence; otherwise it could be hundreds of turns before he'd even know it had been published. That would probably require someone Charlie trusts to betray him, because he'd be too suspicious if the book were given to him by an ally of Gobwin Knob.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lamech » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:25 am

Lilwik wrote:That plan would require a way to ensure that Charlie learned about the book's existence; otherwise it could be hundreds of turns before he'd even know it had been published. That would probably require someone Charlie trusts to betray him, because he'd be too suspicious if the book were given to him by an ally of Gobwin Knob.

Do you honestly think Charlie doesn't keep an eye on every single book published? I have no doubt he would know the turn Stanley chokes on a nut and dies.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lipkin » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:33 am

Lamech wrote:
Lilwik wrote:That plan would require a way to ensure that Charlie learned about the book's existence; otherwise it could be hundreds of turns before he'd even know it had been published. That would probably require someone Charlie trusts to betray him, because he'd be too suspicious if the book were given to him by an ally of Gobwin Knob.

Do you honestly think Charlie doesn't keep an eye on every single book published? I have no doubt he would know the turn Stanley chokes on a nut and dies.

From what we know, "keeping an eye on every book published" would be an untitanly expensive venture.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby name lips » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:44 am

thoughts:
1) Parson could exploit the auto-publishing rules somehow.
2) Parson could bypass the auto-publishing rules somehow.

For example, there is no mention of whether books can be added to a library WITHOUT magically popping. He could have a copy of a book made, and then magically duplicated, and then distribute it to various sides' libraries via hat or courier.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lipkin » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:43 pm

Signamancer + Dittomancer = Chain Letter?
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:22 pm

Nobody else is thinking of spam publishing dozens of copies of "The King in Yellow?"
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Oberon » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:05 pm

Lipkin wrote:
Lamech wrote:Do you honestly think Charlie doesn't keep an eye on every single book published? I have no doubt he would know the turn Stanley chokes on a nut and dies.

From what we know, "keeping an eye on every book published" would be an untitanly expensive venture.
That doesn't really follow. The Milquetoast Minds Who Think Erratically were worried that Charlie could use Lookamancy to read Parson's notes regarding their discussion, so there's nothing really limiting Charlies' ability to do the same with new books in the libraries of all the sides he is already keeping an eye on, which appears to be all of them.

In other words, never downplay what Charlie can do, because you'll be wrong every time.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby ftl » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:57 pm

Well, the main delimiter would be attention, not ability. I would bet that Charlie instantly would read anything he could that was written by Parson, and is keeping an eye on what Parson is doing as best he can. That would include trying to read his notes.

But that doesn't mean he keeps an eye on everything that happens throughout all of erfworld. He certainly projects the aura that he knows everything and anything though.

It depends on whether he thinks books *matter*, and how much effort it is to read the new ones.

Presumably 99% of what he could find in books is either useless (the battle histories of sides that are already dead; musings by rulers who know nothing and talk for ages about it) or stuff that's easy to find out otherwise (again, battle histories aren't exactly a private thing; for any side that charlie can send an archon to, he can find out everything that would be written in a book just by having the archon spend a day chatting with a commander, history isn't considered too private.)

It would depend on whether books contain accurate *locations*. If they contain exact coordinates, that would be super-useful and would make it worthwhile to pore through everything and make an accurate map.

Also it depends on how you could find new books. Would it make sense for Charlie to continually raze and rebuild his library to get new books? That could be expensive. Is there a way to get an "alert" when a new book is published, or do you just have to keep rebuilding libraries from scratch and hope to see something new?

It depends on how big erfworld is, too. If Erf is huge and there are millions of sides dying every turn, then no, trying to read a million new books per turn just to find that none of them are by sides you have ever heard of, that's a big waste of time. If at this point we've seen, say, one-tenth of Erfworld geography, then a new book would get published rarely and it's easy to keep track of all of the new ones.

All in all, I think there's enough ambiguity for Rob to write it either way, however works best for the story, with Charlie either having knowledge of all books or not.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Oberon » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:41 pm

ftl wrote:Well, the main delimiter would be attention, not ability. I would bet that Charlie instantly would read anything he could that was written by Parson, and is keeping an eye on what Parson is doing as best he can. That would include trying to read his notes.

But that doesn't mean he keeps an eye on everything that happens throughout all of erfworld. He certainly projects the aura that he knows everything and anything though.

It depends on whether he thinks books *matter*, and how much effort it is to read the new ones.
Once he has read all of the common books, which might even be in his own library, all the attention it takes is to identify books he doesn't have and then read those. He doesn't have to use lookamancy for all of those, he can simply have his own library expanded and hope to find the new books there. Over time the number of new books will grow more and more seldom seen, and thus his attention needed will grow lower and lower. He can simply skim those texts which are merely the history of a fallen side with no real value to be gained. Given Charlies' modus operandi, he will indeed be interested in the potential intelligence gained from reading books, and the insight into the psyche of the authors such as that which Olive gained after reading Banhammer's books. It would be shocking to find Charlie disinterested in the intel to be gained from reading library books.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby nargbop » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:07 am

ftl wrote:It would depend on whether books contain accurate *locations*. If they contain exact coordinates, that would be super-useful and would make it worthwhile to pore through everything and make an accurate map.

Also it depends on how you could find new books. Would it make sense for Charlie to continually raze and rebuild his library to get new books? That could be expensive. Is there a way to get an "alert" when a new book is published, or do you just have to keep rebuilding libraries from scratch and hope to see something new?

It depends on how big erfworld is, too. If Erf is huge and there are millions of sides dying every turn, then no, trying to read a million new books per turn just to find that none of them are by sides you have ever heard of, that's a big waste of time. If at this point we've seen, say, one-tenth of Erfworld geography, then a new book would get published rarely and it's easy to keep track of all of the new ones.


Automagically-published books are probably very thorough and quite mechanical, or Crush would not need imagination to think up the lives of the characters therein. They don't appear to have an author, but are simply a magical convention of the world. Therefore, they probably include every a record of every single fight, including records of fights that surviving casters don't want to appear.

There are more of Charlie's secrets, already exposed, I think. They're just buried in boring flat historical texts that few read. And they would use Charlie's original name, so there would be some serious detective work to figure it out.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lipkin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:15 am

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:
Lamech wrote:Do you honestly think Charlie doesn't keep an eye on every single book published? I have no doubt he would know the turn Stanley chokes on a nut and dies.

From what we know, "keeping an eye on every book published" would be an untitanly expensive venture.
That doesn't really follow. The Milquetoast Minds Who Think Erratically were worried that Charlie could use Lookamancy to read Parson's notes regarding their discussion, so there's nothing really limiting Charlies' ability to do the same with new books in the libraries of all the sides he is already keeping an eye on, which appears to be all of them.

In other words, never downplay what Charlie can do, because you'll be wrong every time.

The actual quote is that any master class lookamancer could read his notes, if they were in the same hex. There is a big difference between that, and checking every library on Erf for new books.

Add to that that the inventory of libraries are random, and from what I understand, lacking in organization. The number of libraries on Erf, plus the number of fallen sides and published books means that having all that knowledge is unlikely in the extreme. One would need to devote considerable resources to accomplish such a task. Charlie wouldn't be able to read every book on his own, meaning he'd need to assign Archons. Archons have very high upkeep. That's a lot of smuckers to devote to gathering information that will at most only be slightly useful.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lilwik » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:59 pm

Lipkin wrote:Add to that that the inventory of libraries are random, and from what I understand, lacking in organization.
Everything else you said makes perfect sense, but I don't think we should take random content to mean that the libraries are unorganized. I don't think we've heard anything to suggest that Erfworld libraries are either organized or unorganized, so I'm going to assume that they are organized because that's how all libraries are in my experience, and if libraries didn't pop with organization then people like Crush would organize them.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:26 pm

Oberon wrote:In other words, never downplay what Charlie can do, because you'll be wrong every time.
There is one limitation Charlie may still be bound by, which would - if true - make him unable to keep tabs on every single book ever published. Time. We have never had a post from his perspective yet, but we do have examples of him supposedly being busy. So if Charlie is limited by time as all other Erflings are, then no, he very likely cannot keep tabs on every book ever published.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Lipkin » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:35 am

0beron wrote:
Oberon wrote:In other words, never downplay what Charlie can do, because you'll be wrong every time.
There is one limitation Charlie may still be bound by, which would - if true - make him unable to keep tabs on every single book ever published. Time. We have never had a post from his perspective yet, but we do have examples of him supposedly being busy. So if Charlie is limited by time as all other Erflings are, then no, he very likely cannot keep tabs on every book ever published.

Without making Archons do the work for him, which would be a waste of such valuable units.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby 0beron » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:27 am

Not even then. Archons don't have Lookamancy, so he would still have to spend the time personally, unless there was a way to "snapshot" books faster than one could read them and display via Foolamancy for Archons to read. Mind you, this is even assuming Charlie even HAS the ability to use Lookamancy, a theory which hasn't even the barest shred of a hint in-comic.
No, if Charlie has every book in Erfworld, he would have to do it with some Signamancy CarnyRig on his own Library. Which given his love of linking, may very well be something he's capable of doing, but then the question of time comes up again. Their combat value aside, how many Archons would it take to read the entire "backlog" of books already published, nevermind keeping up with the current rate of publication. The number of books in existence may very well be too vast for any number of units to read even working together.
Even if we assume it is indeed possible to posses every book and have enough units to read them all, how does he know they won't miss something? His intel then becomes a game of telephone so something may be lost in the retelling, and more importantly the Archons would have to know all his secrets in order for them not to miss something Charlie would consider important but they consider insignificant. And we damn well know Charlie NEVER willingly tells his secrets, even to the Archons.

So long story short, there are many layered reasons why Charlie very likely does not know the contents of every single book ever published.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Lord Crush - Part 2

Postby Mikalyaran » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:42 pm

0beron wrote:Not even then. Archons don't have Lookamancy, so he would still have to spend the time personally, unless there was a way to "snapshot" books faster than one could read them and display via Foolamancy for Archons to read. Mind you, this is even assuming Charlie even HAS the ability to use Lookamancy, a theory which hasn't even the barest shred of a hint in-comic.
No, if Charlie has every book in Erfworld, he would have to do it with some Signamancy CarnyRig on his own Library. Which given his love of linking, may very well be something he's capable of doing, but then the question of time comes up again. Their combat value aside, how many Archons would it take to read the entire "backlog" of books already published, nevermind keeping up with the current rate of publication. The number of books in existence may very well be too vast for any number of units to read even working together.
Even if we assume it is indeed possible to posses every book and have enough units to read them all, how does he know they won't miss something? His intel then becomes a game of telephone so something may be lost in the retelling, and more importantly the Archons would have to know all his secrets in order for them not to miss something Charlie would consider important but they consider insignificant. And we damn well know Charlie NEVER willingly tells his secrets, even to the Archons.

So long story short, there are many layered reasons why Charlie very likely does not know the contents of every single book ever published.


I bet the link up could just cause any newly published book to automagically pop into his library. There is already a rule in place that cause the history of sides which have fallen to automagically pop. Just make it so that rules applies to the other types of book. I agree there is no way he would be able to know everything in every book in Erfworld. But he could have his Archons organize by type, make note of what side histories they have, compile a Master book of the natural philosophy for top archons to study, and list out whatever "Wisdom" books as well. With some effort and diplomacy I'm sure he could also get his hands on particular sides histories he likes. I can imagine a special shelf in his library with the histories of sides whose defeat he arranged or facilitated. There's a lot of good reasons for any of these actions. But there really isn't a good reason for Charlie to try and become a breathing Encyclopedia Britannica. With some clever organization, working knowledge of what is in the library, and an attentive mind he could figure out if he has any books which would be useful for whatever purpose is at hand. Just met side such and such? Well it just so happens Charlie has a copy of the series written by the current rulers grandpa of the ruler of suchandsuch. A quick read could provide any number of useful insights into the side.
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