Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Squall83 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:55 pm

That "just sayin'" combined with the "not even your final form" reminded me of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAMlAhpv7Ss :lol:

That was definitely a worthy finale.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:57 pm

NYbear wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:Minor plot hole though... Parson can refuse to answer charlie if he thinks there is a danger to his side. Given that, shouldn't he had been able to refuse to give charlie an answer to how many archons it would take to take gobwinknob back in book 1?
<snip>


Not necessarily a plot hole. Charlie even mentions the possible explanation. When he says he has to view him as an enemy for Duty to really kick in and prevent revealing side damaging info in the calc response.

Perhaps in book one, when he was still trying to make a deal with Charlie, he didn't yet see Charlie as an enemy to GK. Merely a Merc that happened to be working for the other side, but that could have been working for GK - had it not been for Stanley's refusal.
It's a thought...


Not really... I mean Charlie's request for calculation was basically telling Parson "I'm about to attack your city and kidnap you... by force if necessary." And that's what he did the following turn, though Parson convinced him to wait, and he by the time he did take action it was too late for him to have more of an effect. Honestly there would have been PLENTY of reason not to give him that information... Parson even knew Charlie screwed him over on that deal.

pseudoname wrote:hate the videos, why no text? what could you possibly spoil?
charlie the powerful mercenary side has an army?


Stagemancy. Presentation can be very powerful. Timing, pacing, deliver and sound can all have an effect on how much of an impact something has. A single image can say a lot, but give that same image the right kind of presentation and it can FEEL like more. And this was one of those times. The others videos, made very little use of the video format; the video added little to nothing and thus many could find reading preferable. But not this video; this video actually made use of the format to ADD something to the text and imagery.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:22 pm

That last shot of Charlescomm was an incredible way to end the epilogues. The long pauses in Parson's replies towards the end were a very nice touch as well - really gave a sense of him thinking furiously to come up with a better solution.


Charlie's claim that he's got a lot of stuff he's never had to use and the shot of the heavily armed Archons makes me wonder what else he might have. Parson definitely has the right idea about sending his stealth golem in to scout Charlescomm.

Obviously, he seems to have built up a stock of no-upkeep items to increase his power without increasing the upkeep that goes with it. Without a doubt that includes a whole lot of scrolls with spells for every contingency he can think of, and the equipment of the Archons are likely to have been created with Dollamancy.

There are a few other branches of magic that seem likely to be useful for making some interesting equipment though. Lookamancy or Findamancy for a radar setup or night vision goggles that see everything maybe? The one that seems most interesting to me though is Turnamancy - we know it can make self-propelled vehicles that act as items and Charlie often hires Turnamancers from the magic kingdom. Looking at the stuff the Archons have, Turnamancy makes me think "Helicopter Gunship". Since Vanna could increase production in Faq's three cities and still have juice for turning captured enemies, Charlie's hired Turnamancers must also have been putting their juice to more than just increasing production in Charlescomm.

I've also had a very, very scary thought for how he could use Dittomancers depending on exactly how Archon levelling works. Ansom has mentioned how a Dittomancer would work in battle - doubling leadership and specials, duplicating surviving units (which sounds like it has much larger implications than the single Slately duplicate we saw). We've also seen it's possible to not just double, but quadruple volleys of arrows, and while duplicated items might disappear later, duplicated labour put into fabricating new items surely wouldn't.

Now, we know Archons gain a special per level from the group of dance fighting, leadership, Shockmancy, Thinkamancy, Dollamancy and Foolamancy, and it has been mentioned that no Archon had more than a leadership of 3 - I'm thinking this might be for Archons who got the leadership special three times. So, following this, if Charlie has been keeping every Archon who levelled three times in Dollamancy in the capital (maybe the same for the other disciplines of magic - I'd bet the Archons in his tower all have Thinkamancy 3), he might occasionally hire a Dittomancer to double or quadruple the number or Dollamancy special of the archons in the capital to have them fabricate more difficult items. Imagine a normal garrison of 120 archons with level 3 specials spending a turn (or at least enough of a turn to use a turn's worth of juice) as 480 archons with level 12 specials...
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby zuche » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:56 pm

If this entry's creator believed that the video format presented this particular entry to best effect, then it deserved to be released on its own. Perhaps none of the others saw this level of endorsement because none of the others were seen to stand out as well as this one does. As much as I've enjoyed the others, this one feels as though it's made good use of lessons learned over the course of the experiment.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby multilis » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:20 pm

Abnaxis wrote:I always thought it was weird for a Carny to attune to what is clearly a Thinkamancy artifact anyway.

Wanda's pliers are good at dusting uncroaked and decrypted may fit healomancy better than croakomancy.

We have no idea whether tools bond best with similar or opposite type people or if that matters in any way.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Guppy » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:24 pm

If the red glow is indeed decryption, then this has some serious strategic consequences. Aside from zero upkeep, it also means that Wanda's snowball-mechanic no longer functions vs. Charlie (cannot re-decrypt fallen Archons).

The second issue is how Charlie managed to apply decryption to his troops. I'm thinking it is a multi-caster Carnymancy effect, and that decryption is a status effect just like "flying" or "heavy unit" and Charlie has managed to reverse-engineer it from the captured Archon. If Carnymancy can manipulate decrypted status, this also brings up the question of whether decryption status can be removed from a unit (and whether this would dust the unit or render it living again).
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby SnowballMan » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:32 pm

Dredged this old account out of the muck and debris to ask one very important question:

Why are they using phrases like "U mad bro" and "Trololol" when those didn't become popular until after Parson left our world?

(I haven't really been keeping up on the text portions or any of the discussions so I may have missed if there was a stated reason why modern elements are making their way into Erfworld but even if the world itself is synched with ours why would Parson be using phrases from after he left?)
Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:34 pm

So, I've watched all the videos as they were released and now again. And, since this an experiment, that would mean feedback is desirable yes?

A definite thumbs down from me, on video. I feel that the speaker could have done a much better job with each character's voice and the tempo of each scene and that the videos did a disservice to the art.

Just me, though.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Dystopianman » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:36 pm

Call of Duty, Modern Warfare.

That being said, going off the modern/World War motif thats been going on lately, can Erfworld's rules of rulership be changed or adapted to fit more progressive forms of government than Monarchy/Dictatorship? Right now, from a political science point of view, the world thus far seems to be divided between Monarchists and Autocrats (overseers.) The rules of rulership of Erfworld reflect this reality (ruler has absolute power over subordinates can disband/end existence at whim.)

However...

If Parson is supposed to launch a war to break wars, (war to end all wars aka WWI), that posits some interesting questions. World War I was the death knell of Monarchy in Europe. From its ashes, Liberal (in the classical sense) Democracy, Communism, and Fascism took its place amongst the various post war nations. While Fascism and even Communism could still conciveably function within Erfworld's rules of rulership, Liberal Democracy presents new challenges.

Can Erfworld's rules of rulership be adapted or even -changed- to reflect a truly democratic side?

Francis Fukuyama once theorized that if every single country in the world was ruled by a true Liberal Democracies, War as we know it would end, because people would never vote to go to war against each other.

Can the rules of Erfworld, and thus its very physics, be changed? Or do they evolve or adapt to reflect the new realities on the ground? Are there already rules for them already in existence that /have not been discovered by the populace yet/?

As a corollary the presence of modern weaponry within Charlie's forces, begs that same question from a military perspective. There are implications for night operations, nuclear weapons, artillery barrages from miles and miles away, and fixed wing aircraft that can only spend a limited time in the air and require specialized faculties, and so much more in the book of modern warfare. Can the rules be changed to accommodate them? Do they evolve? Or, most intriguingly, are they already in place but as yet undiscovered by the people of Erfworld?

Are there space hexes?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Ytaker » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:51 pm

Krennson wrote:Look at it this way: remember every possible toy people have wanted to to see parson invent? And every possible theory about how parson can use that toy to alter the balance of power? We now have clear evidence that Charlie has been secretly developing and stockpiling exactly those toys for DECADES, and they will probably work almost as well as we had hoped for.

From that final image, they have synthetic stock rifles, m16-style sight apertures, and multi-barrel anti-aircraft guns. if we assume that Charlie created those toys while in links with other casters, using images he was familiar with from earth, that means that Charlie has memories of earth as recent as 1960.


I like your theories, but so you know, no knowledge of Stupidworld weapons is needed to make those weapons.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_30

Lightsabers for example are made by Ace despite him having no knowledge of Star Wars.

Erfworld likes using things from Stupidworld.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:02 pm

Dystopianman wrote:Call of Duty, Modern Warfare.

That being said, going off the modern/World War motif thats been going on lately, can Erfworld's rules of rulership be changed or adapted to fit more progressive forms of government than Monarchy/Dictatorship? Right now, from a political science point of view, the world thus far seems to be divided between Monarchists and Autocrats (overseers.) The rules of rulership of Erfworld reflect this reality (ruler has absolute power over subordinates can disband/end existence at whim.)

However...

If Parson is supposed to launch a war to break wars, (war to end all wars aka WWI), that posits some interesting questions. World War I was the death knell of Monarchy in Europe. From its ashes, Liberal (in the classical sense) Democracy, Communism, and Fascism took its place amongst the various post war nations. While Fascism and even Communism could still conciveably function within Erfworld's rules of rulership, Liberal Democracy presents new challenges.

Can Erfworld's rules of rulership be adapted or even -changed- to reflect a truly democratic side?
ry in the world was ruled by a true Liberal Democracies, War as we know it would end, because people would never vote to go to war against each other.


so far, everything we've seen about erfworld is that you can't CHANGE the rules as such, but you can use magic to... work around them.

If we WANTED to create a functional democracy out of a side, we probably could... You'd need a signamancer, a thinkamancer, and maybe an unknown third caster. Then you create a very strange type of contract....

The current king swears to honor the results of future elections, and the laws for holding elections. He also swears to never designate a Chief Warlord, a Heir, or a new monarch of a split side, without first requiring the person in question to swear into the same contract. Thus, the senior leadership of a side is perpetually contracted to abide by the laws of an election, and to impose that contract on all future leaders.

Running the election after that is just paperwork and money. You designate new heirs as needed, and kings abdicate as needed. however, designating new heirs is very expensive, and doing so is needlessly wasteful.

Alternately, you could go with a constitutional monarchy system, where the king and heir always remain the same, but they take no leadership roles, and are contractually obligated to defer to the "Elected President".

Can the rules of Erfworld, and thus its very physics, be changed? Or do they evolve or adapt to reflect the new realities on the ground? Are there already rules for them already in existence that /have not been discovered by the populace yet/?

As a corollary the presence of modern weaponry within Charlie's forces, begs that same question from a military perspective. There are implications for night operations, nuclear weapons, artillery barrages from miles and miles away, and fixed wing aircraft that can only spend a limited time in the air and require specialized faculties, and so much more in the book of modern warfare. Can the rules be changed to accommodate them? Do they evolve? Or, most intriguingly, are they already in place but as yet undiscovered by the people of Erfworld?

Are there space hexes?


I doubt we'll see anything so drastic yet, and i don't think it's needed. I'm fairly confident that the physics of Erfworld remain the same, always, but that magic can create new items that work around past limitations.

What really made war in the modern world so scary was LOGISTICS. We don't need nuclear weapons, or multi-hex artillery, or most the other 'cool toys' from the modern world.

What would really make a huge difference to erfworld combat would be magical gasoline and magical Ammunition. The ability to 'Store' several turns of movement, or several turns of firepower, then use it all once would be a HUGE improvement. So would the ability to produce those things in the rear, then send them forward for front line combat on a single turns action. right now, it takes a given unit several turns to cross your average kingdom, and they can only use one turn's worth of firepower at a time. If you had a railroad train golem, which could tow railroad cars filled with ammo or troops, and could transfer railroad cars between engines, to cross the entire kingdom in a single day... that would be a HUGE difference in terms of combat capability.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:09 pm

Ytaker wrote:
Krennson wrote:Look at it this way: remember every possible toy people have wanted to to see parson invent? And every possible theory about how parson can use that toy to alter the balance of power? We now have clear evidence that Charlie has been secretly developing and stockpiling exactly those toys for DECADES, and they will probably work almost as well as we had hoped for.

From that final image, they have synthetic stock rifles, m16-style sight apertures, and multi-barrel anti-aircraft guns. if we assume that Charlie created those toys while in links with other casters, using images he was familiar with from earth, that means that Charlie has memories of earth as recent as 1960.


I like your theories, but so you know, no knowledge of Stupidworld weapons is needed to make those weapons.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_30

Lightsabers for example are made by Ace despite him having no knowledge of Star Wars.

Erfworld likes using things from Stupidworld.


That's true, and you may be right. On the other hand, Ace mixed imagery from many different sources: He had star wars lightsabers, modern hand grenades, Martial arts Sai, what looked like toy model rockets...

From what little we saw of Charlies fortress, he seems to have standardized on 1960-era weapon systems, and implemented uniformity across his entire force. To my mind, that makes it... more likely... that Charlie is basing his designs on specific knowledge from a period in Earth history. It could be a coincidence or artistic choice, but I'm doubtful.

If nothing else, these may be ideas Charlie got from eavesdropping on Judy's mind when she knew him. If Judy was from the 1960's, that could make sense.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:14 pm

I feel like a lot of these updates have shown something unique in Erfworld: Innovation. Invention. The temple is a form of innovation. A building of pure magic. The super doll. Charlie's modern weapons. THIS IS GONNA BE GREAT!

Dystopianman wrote:That being said, going off the modern/World War motif thats been going on lately, can Erfworld's rules of rulership be changed or adapted to fit more progressive forms of government than Monarchy/Dictatorship? Right now, from a political science point of view, the world thus far seems to be divided between Monarchists and Autocrats (overseers.) The rules of rulership of Erfworld reflect this reality (ruler has absolute power over subordinates can disband/end existence at whim.)

Natural sides explicitly have chiefs. Or at least can. They lead the side. We don't know how they are chosen, but if a natural side is reduced to a single unit that one becomes chief. I think if the despotism needs to be broken natural allies must be the ones to do it. Plus those are the sides that can be designed to survive in the wild.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby effataigus » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:22 pm

I tried to get through the voice acted bit and couldn't. Looking forward to the text update.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:55 pm

Here is a question. So far, it's been said in comic that it is impossible to fight at night. So then why searchlights? And why are Charlie's forces mustered for war in the dead of night? To hide their activities? No one knows where Charlie's capitol is.



Other thought. Granted, I haven't seen Tron, but after the Tron analogy was made, I read up on it. But...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-_Uy_DIwaY

Substitute "User" with "Titan."

The Master Control Program was created by Users, but had the ability to draw a User into the cyberworld. What if the same were true of Charlie? Is Book 0 the re-imagining of The Wizard of Oz, and the comic proper a re-imagining of Tron?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:03 pm

Lipkin wrote:Here is a question. So far, it's been said in comic that it is impossible to fight at night. So then why searchlights? And why are Charlie's forces mustered for war in the dead of night? To hide their activities? No one knows where Charlie's capitol is.



Other thought. Granted, I haven't seen Tron, but after the Tron analogy was made, I read up on it. But...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-_Uy_DIwaY

Substitute "User" with "Titan."

The Master Control Program was created by Users, but had the ability to draw a User into the cyberworld. What if the same were true of Charlie? Is Book 0 the re-imagining of The Wizard of Oz, and the comic proper a re-imagining of Tron?


A turnamancer might be able to allow units to fight at night. Alternately, the searchlights could be an anti-foolamancy tool, searching for hidden scouts at night.

As for why the Archons are arming at night, it will take time to issue weapons and train people on them for 600 archons. If Charlie didn't make the decision to mobilize until the end of the turn, when he knew Parson had survived, he'll have to mobilize throughout the night, in order to have units ready for movement at dawn tomorrow. Also, at this point, he has to assume that Parson could theoretically come through Charlie's magic portal at anytime, day or night, so he has to maintain a guard watch 24/7.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby My2Cents » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:08 pm

I'm guessing the cloth golems weren't included because they aren't intimidating enough to suit the tone.

How could you make a scary cloth golem? voodoo dolls maybe?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:18 pm

My2Cents wrote:I'm guessing the cloth golems weren't included because they aren't intimidating enough to suit the tone.

How could you make a scary cloth golem? voodoo dolls maybe?

http://cdn.teenidols4you.com/images/pos ... 8790-p.jpg

http://differentmaterial.com/wp-content ... gress1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HuNZrnst-fE/S ... e+band.JPG
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby technojunkie » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:22 pm

TomFoolery wrote:
Falcon X wrote:Charlie has Parson thinking that he has access to the outside world.


... But what I think is more likely from what we know of him is that he has a kind of access through the summoning spell that he himself created...


I think it's simpler than that, Lookamancy was the component of the SPW spell that allowed location of the target. This implies that Lookamancy isn't constrained just to erfworld, but to 'all of existence' If it's as simple as that then Charlie may well be competent in Lookamancy in addition to Thinkamancy and Carnymancy.

We've already learned from the caster profiles that casters can learn the other disciplines, all that's required is that one be a caster, ... (except Sizemore who seems to fail at grasping the nuances of anything beyond dirtamancy, but that may just be a maturity thing) and maybe the new discipline be in an axis they already have knowledge of (it appears that Isaac and Victor are only able to use eyemancy disciplines). Wanda on the other hand has the ability to cast findamancy(arkenshoes), dirtamancy(garden),thinkamancy(Jillian), rhym-o-mancy(Tommy), and maybe dollamancy (all of her attire quirks in book 0)

Then again Thinkamancy is on the eyemancy axis as is lookamancy, and the great minds were concerned about lookamancy being used on parsons notes...
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:25 pm

Lipkin wrote:So far, it's been said in comic that it is impossible to fight at night. So then why searchlights?
It's very hard to be sure that there isn't some heavily veiled unit somewhere up there spying on you. I suspect a doombat could easily hide and watch unless heavy precautions are taken. Searching the sky may also help train the troops in being observant.

Lipkin wrote:And why are Charlie's forces mustered for war in the dead of night?
I expect that they are training. The more they train, the better they get, and since they work for Charlie that may mean they train at all hours.

Lipkin wrote:No one knows where Charlie's capitol is.
Where do we know that from?

technojunkie wrote:Lookamancy was the component of the SPW spell that allowed location of the target.
Surely that should be Findamancy. We haven't seen much of Findamancy, but judging from its name it should be the discipline that finds things.
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