Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:08 pm

Free Radical wrote:That update specifically says "So she [Marie] insisted on placing the spell with Wanda". Based on Marie's predictamancy, the spell was placed with Wanda to cast.
Your quotation does not support your assertion... Placed with Wanda, as a caster from GK who was "in the know", does not mean "intended for her to cast it." Nor does the fact that GK was offered casting services which they could afford. If Stanley hadn't been stubborn about it, Wanda wouldn't have been the caster of the scroll.

shamelessmerc wrote:N.B. I found it amusing I could think of so many historic generals I had to stop, but only three great peacemakers (and I know there are people that take issue with Lincoln)
I would not argue with Lincoln. Not only was he an excellent statesman but as a man with no military experience he still had the vision to rid himself of several under-performing generals.

El_Chupacabra wrote:It's a false equivalence between eloquence and expertise, for most. Popular entertainers (and it could be argued that high-profile preachers are entertainers of a different sort) are going to be listened to, because they can talk the talk -- especially if they're already somewhat aligned with mainstream thought. Your average scientist isn't Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Bill Nye (or hell, even the Mythbusters people), they're geeks in lab coats who aren't exactly going to push a rousing speech. And even NDT doesn't have any songs on Top 40 lists or lead roles in Hollywood Blockbusters -- or big boops.
I personally find NDT to be a very good orator/speaker. His enthusiasm for his subject comes through very strongly, and his expertise is evident. And he is capable of adding humor in a way which appeals to the common man and not just geeks.

And, you know, being the director of the Hayden Planetarium, a former presidential science adviser, and along with his educational credentials, that makes me give a damn about what he has to say on the subject of astronomy more than a Jenny McCarthy ever will about vaccinations, be she clothed or naked.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:11 pm

Oberon wrote:
Free Radical wrote:That update specifically says "So she [Marie] insisted on placing the spell with Wanda". Based on Marie's predictamancy, the spell was placed with Wanda to cast.
Your quotation does not support your assertion... Placed with Wanda, as a caster from GK who was "in the know", does not mean "intended for her to cast it." Nor does the fact that GK was offered casting services which they could afford. If Stanley hadn't been stubborn about it, Wanda wouldn't have been the caster of the scroll.

I'm not getting whatever your point is supposed to be. The predictamancers, whose whole deal is predicting how things will happen based on Fate magic, insisted that the Fate magic Summon Perfect Warlord spell be placed with Wanda and you don't think what came of it was what they predicted would happen if they took that action?

Look, I'm not sure if you actually went back and read that update in full after I linked it the first time, but there are other bits there that say Marie picked Wanda.
So they'd made it happen, without fuss, without hassles, and in secret. Janis had connections. She was listened to. Thanks to her, they pulled off the link-up without giving away the real aim. The Predictamancers all knew, of course. The Thinkamancers only sort of thought they knew. Hubble (the Lookamancer in the link-up) knew, but he was no trouble. And Janis knew.

And...Wanda knew.

After the spell was made, Marie called the shots from there. A lot of what she had said and done so far had troubled Janis. She was trying not to get uptight about the way this was all playing out, but the choice of Wanda had bugged her from the start.

"No she's really da one, I Predict it Jonnis," Marie told her whenever she had doubted. "It's Fate, my excellent friend. You don't fight Fate, you help it!"

This is talking about choosing Wanda to cast the spell, not just Wanda's side, and implies predictamancy was involved in choosing her.

So she insisted on placing the spell with Wanda, a loveless woman from a hopeless side. There were "unfinished Predictions" hanging on her, Marie said. Janis thought it was Marie who had the unfinished business, had something to prove.

But Marie was right.

After placing the spell with Wanda and seeing the results, Janis has to admit that Marie's predictamancy about Wanda was correct.

I can't see any room for interpretation on this one. Marie predicted that Wanda casting the spell would give them the Perfect Warlord they needed, and set things up so that that's what happened. It hardly seems beyond what we've seen of the abilities of predictamancers to work out how to manipulate Stanley into having Wanda cast it by setting the price just right.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:20 pm

Not Me wrote:"- Hey Tram, you know I have this deal with our worst enemy that he owes me some mathamancy calculations.
- And what did you have to give to get a deal like that?
- Almost nothing, what I gave was just the difference between the RCC killing Stanely and beating GK way back in TBfGK with your two brothers and your father safe and sound in Jetsone colours and where we are right now."

Charlie might get caught however
a) Fate is a bitch. And Fate said Wanda get's the pliers. Something could have happened to screw everything up. Say... Jack recovers just a bit sooner, and points out the trap. Then Stanley sits at the hexes edge and rains lightning down on the offending forces. ALL TV warlords lost, ALL archons lost, Jillian Lost. Charlie might know of said Fate and point that out.
b) He was still acting as a merc then. He's only recently switched once it looked like GK was going to doom everyone. So he might just straight up admit it.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:51 pm

Not Me wrote:What is Charlie thinking/planning right now that is so important to contact Tramennis and then Parson in the middle of the night? Of all the sides involved, Charlescomm would be the one having their turn before the rest. What is so important that he has to gather info or solve things at night and not during his own turn?
For one thing Charlie probably wants as much time as possible to prepare for his next meeting with Tramennis so that it goes better than the last one did. More importantly, consider Book 0, Episode 27. Charlescomm may have the first place in the turn order, but unless Charlie actually shares a battlespace with Jetstone tomorrow Jetstone's turn could easily start at dawn, which means they could start making moves without giving Charlie a chance to consult them about the next turn, unless Charlie is quick.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:52 pm

It's rather ironic how Tramennis comments to Jillian that it was pretty amazing of Charlie to strong-arm Haggar into acting like a real ally, and now he's strong-arming Charlie into acting like one himself.

On a sidenote, anyone else think it's interesting that Charlescomm always has first turn in whatever battlespace it happens to be in?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 pm

victor227 wrote:On a sidenote, anyone else think it's interesting that Charlescomm always has first turn in whatever battlespace it happens to be in?

In that turn order might be based on how old a side is, maybe? Charlie moved after Haffaton (fugitive Jillian met Archons still on their turn after Haffaton had ended theirs), and moves after Transylvito when they're unallied. Haffaton definitely, and Transylvito probably existed when Charlie founded Charlescomm.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Zeku » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:48 pm

It sounds like something we've discussed before. My very poor memory suggests that the smaller sides go first? I can't remember if this is forum speculation or actual canon.

I do remember an incident of Jillian noticing that she didn't move first, and thus knew that someone was going to bump into her on that turn? But that just proves that non-conflicting sides all move first and simultaneously.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby 0beron » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:52 pm

The basis of how turn order is formed has never been reveal in-comic. We only know that each side has an independent natural turn order that never changes. Sides in an alliance all act together, at the same time as the member with the latest natural turn order.
Speculation would IMO point to it being random. It cannot be based on size, because then it wouldn't be a constant. And it cannot be based on age, because Transylvito goes before Charlescomm, and GK goes before Jetstone.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:24 am

Free Radical wrote:I'm not getting whatever your point is supposed to be.
My point is supposed to be that you're making assumptions which are not backed up by the canon. You could be right, but that's beside the point that you're reading what you want to read, and then stating it as if it were conclusive fact.
Free Radical wrote:"No she's really da one, I Predict it Jonnis," Marie told her whenever she had doubted. "It's Fate, my excellent friend. You don't fight Fate, you help it!"
This is talking about choosing Wanda to cast the spell, not just Wanda's side, and implies predictamancy was involved in choosing her.
Except that you're again reading what you want to read. "She's the one" can mean a great many things. For example, it can mean that Wanda will play a deciding role in bringing about peace on Erf, via her ownership of the 'pliers and working in cooperation with "The Perfect Warlord."
Free Radical wrote:I can't see any room for interpretation on this one.
And yet you insist on taking all the room for interpretation which makes your theory right, even though the words you are reading say nothing definitive about who will cast the SPW scroll.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:34 am

victor227 wrote:On a sidenote, anyone else think it's interesting that Charlescomm always has first turn in whatever battlespace it happens to be in?
Someone has to be first, after all. But then again, Carlie is a master class carnymancer with the 'dish. He is proven to be able to screw with the turn order just by hiring a turnamancer.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:03 am

Was scrolling back through the first set of summer updates back in 2009, rather interesting how the chat between Parson and Charlie goes compared to their recent one, and a bit of extra context added too with all the Book 0 revaluations.

http://www.erfworld.com/category/summer ... 09/page/2/

There's a fun line that stands out now that we know about Fate and whatnot in a much higher detail.
LordHamster: Can't let something like that stop the Good News, brother!
LordHamster: You should be happy, though. Right? You're a Tool.
CharlsNChrg: I'm nobody's tool, Parson.
LordHamster: Oh? Not even the Titans?
CharlsNChrg: ...
CharlsNChrg: We'll see.


As well, it may have just been a sort of snide remark, but when Charlie brings up that the easiest way to disprove Toolism would be to croak an attuned tool-user, Charlie being the one to go is the first reaction Parson has. The bit from Charlie about Wanda and Stanley choosing their own narrative being equally plausible to the 'Titans' Will' is another contrast to the whole 'Fate' line that Wanda has been towing since the beginning as well, and definitely seems to establish Charlie denying 'Fate'ism' or 'Fatalism' or whatever Wanda would call it.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Dunbar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:22 am

Oberon wrote:Except that you're again reading what you want to read. "She's the one" can mean a great many things. For example, it can mean that Wanda will play a deciding role in bringing about peace on Erf, via her ownership of the 'pliers and working in cooperation with "The Perfect Warlord."


It may not be explicitly stated that Wanda was intended to cast the spell, but sometimes what is not said is just as important as what is said. From the conversation you are referencing, Marie seems completely at ease and content with the result of the casting of the spell. If she had any reservations about the result, you'd think she'd have said something. Such as "Even though Wanda cast the spell, all is unfolding as predicted" or something like that. But she gives no indication that Wanda casting this incredibly important spell was in error or a change in plans. You'd think if it was, someone from the predicatmancers or thinkamancers would have commented on it at some point.

All of this (edit: to be clear, meaning Free Radical and other posters analysis of what was said as well as the above, before I am nit-picked about how lack of mentioning something is absolute proof of it and how rubbish that is etc. etc.), to my mind, is evidence that Wanda casting the spell was intended. Now you are right, so long as Rob doesn't come out and explicitly state that this is the case there will always be wiggle room, but I think it's fair to say that there is very little to no evidence that the spell wasn't cast as intended. Yes, they offered to sell the services of a caster when they offered the spell to GK, but as has been stated that could well have been part of the plan. They set the price so GK could afford it and not be suspicious (like if they gave it for free). Offering the caster plan was so that Wanda would be willing to sell the idea to Stanley, then pricing the caster plan so high Stanley would refuse. That all seems in line with the abilities of predictamancers and thinkamancers working together, as has been stated earlier in this discussion.

Again, it does go a bit too far to say there is no room for disagreement or discussion on this issue, but I would go as far as to say that without additional evidence that Wanda was NOT supposed to cast the spell, there is little reason to back that theory over backing the opposite.

On another note, about your comment earlier on the military using civilian gamers in their war games and finding them too willing to sacrifice lives to achieve objectives, I wanted to say that I'm familiar with the same story. Also from before the internet. After your discussion about it being apocryphal or not, I googled it. I didn't manage to find anything, oddly enough. Seems weird to me that we are both familiar with the same story, yet it doesn't seem to exist online. This leads me to believe that it is just an urban legend of sorts (it does make a good yarn and sounds a bit like many of the stories debunked on Snopes), as if it were true you'd think it'd be findable. Weird.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:53 am

Dunbar wrote:Yes, they offered to sell the services of a caster when they offered the spell to GK, but as has been stated that could well have been part of the plan. They set the price so GK could afford it and not be suspicious (like if they gave it for free). Offering the caster plan was so that Wanda would be willing to sell the idea to Stanley, then pricing the caster plan so high Stanley would refuse. That all seems in line with the abilities of predictamancers and thinkamancers working together, as has been stated earlier in this discussion.
I think that's getting too complicated. It seems to me that a more natural interpretation of Marie's conversation is that Wanda was chosen to be the one who they offered the spell to. Remember that the whole story started with Wanda presenting the possibility of the Summon Perfect Warlord spell to Stanley, so Wanda must have learned about it in the Magic Kingdom and been given the option to buy it even though I'm sure there were plenty of other sides who would have loved to have a perfect warlord. I expect that the scroll takes care of all the important details of casting the spell, like assembling flat pack furniture by following the instructions, so the details of whether Wanda cast the spell personally or hired a Findamancer probably wasn't important to Fate or Marie, because either way it's still Wanda's side that gets the perfect warlord.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:14 am

Dunbar wrote:Now you are right, so long as Rob doesn't come out and explicitly state that this is the case there will always be wiggle room, but I think it's fair to say that there is very little to no evidence that the spell wasn't cast as intended. Yes, they offered to sell the services of a caster when they offered the spell to GK, but as has been stated that could well have been part of the plan. They set the price so GK could afford it and not be suspicious (like if they gave it for free). Offering the caster plan was so that Wanda would be willing to sell the idea to Stanley, then pricing the caster plan so high Stanley would refuse. That all seems in line with the abilities of predictamancers and thinkamancers working together, as has been stated earlier in this discussion.
Lilwik ninja'd me on the "getting a bit complicated there" point. Wheels within wheels is all well and good, but wouldn't it have just been easier to sell the scroll to GK and not even mention that they were willing to cast it for GK? Then you avoid the whole issue of "Oh, crap. They bought the support plan! Now what?" Right? Who makes a plan which offers two options, one which you want to occur, and the other which absolutely screws your plan over if selected?

Dunbar wrote:Again, it does go a bit too far to say there is no room for disagreement or discussion on this issue, but I would go as far as to say that without additional evidence that Wanda was NOT supposed to cast the spell, there is little reason to back that theory over backing the opposite.
I'm not sure who you're referring to here, but I've agreed a couple times that Free Radical might be right. He's the one using phrases such as "I can't see any room for interpretation on this one", not me.

Dunbar wrote:On another note, about your comment earlier on the military using civilian gamers in their war games and finding them too willing to sacrifice lives to achieve objectives, I wanted to say that I'm familiar with the same story. Also from before the internet. After your discussion about it being apocryphal or not, I googled it. I didn't manage to find anything, oddly enough. Seems weird to me that we are both familiar with the same story, yet it doesn't seem to exist online. This leads me to believe that it is just an urban legend of sorts (it does make a good yarn and sounds a bit like many of the stories debunked on Snopes), as if it were true you'd think it'd be findable. Weird.
I don't find it odd at all that you didn't find any reference to it. I also searched and came up with nothing. You just mentioned a vast repository of urban legends and hoax debunking, and if it's not there that's a point for it rather than against it in my mind. Of course, there are a lot of things that happened 35 years ago in niche communities such as a single military program or within the gaming community which simply aren't findable on the internet. For example, the gaming club I was in for about 10 years where I heard this story? Not a peep about it on the Internet, and I tried several different search terms referencing our club name, the public location we met at, and the names of some of the officers. The Internet simply does not care what our ~100 people did for fun 35 years ago. We had a newsletter and everything. Today, it would most likely be an online newsletter, as why waste time and money photocopying when you can just post it to the web page your provider gives you for free, or any one of a dozen other ways to get free web hosting such as blog sites, etc.? If our club still exited today you could find it with ease. But since it predated the Internet there's just no electronic record for Google to spider their way into possession of.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:09 am

Oberon wrote:Who makes a plan which offers two options, one which you want to occur, and the other which absolutely screws your plan over if selected?

A predictamancer who knows which one you're going to choose?

We've seen how predictamancy is used in battle, where Delphie or Marie could see whether a shot they were about to take would hit and only choose to take the shots that would hit. The Summon Perfect Warlord spell was Fate magic, so it's not one of the things predictamancy can't see. It doesn't actually require any additional assumptions about predicamancy to think that Marie would know as she prepared to offer Wanda the spell at a particular price whether it would result in Wanda casting the spell or not, and if not, simply not offer at that price.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:25 am

The two prices might have been necessary to sell Stanley on it. Let him think he was doing it on the cheap.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Dunbar » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:33 am

Oberon wrote:Lilwik ninja'd me on the "getting a bit complicated there" point. Wheels within wheels is all well and good, but wouldn't it have just been easier to sell the scroll to GK and not even mention that they were willing to cast it for GK? Then you avoid the whole issue of "Oh, crap. They bought the support plan! Now what?" Right? Who makes a plan which offers two options, one which you want to occur, and the other which absolutely screws your plan over if selected?


Well, my thinking on this was that it was Wanda they talked to (since she was in the MK), and it was her they sold the plan on. She had to convince Stanley it was a good idea. So maybe Wanda wouldn't have thought the spell was a good idea if they told her that she would have to cast it, so they offered the support plan, since otherwise she wouldn't have tried to get Stanely to buy it. Then the priced the support plan so that Stanley wouldn't buy it. Actually, as I recall Stanley was not interested in the spell very much until Wanda mentioned it was cheaper without the support plan. Then he changed his mind, because suddenly it was a deal. Maybe without the price drop, he wouldn't have bought it. And as Free Radical said, hey, they are predictamancers, so they knew which option would be selected, and so designed the situation to get what they wanted. (edit: and drachefly beat me to it on the price drop being a way to sell Stanley on it)

Also, this argument can be turned around. If they wanted some other caster to cast it, why offer the support plan separately? Sell the scroll and the casting as a single unit. Again, why offer them an option when they only want one option chosen? Assuming there was no predictamancy to determine what GK would do with the spell, it makes no sense to give them options if only one option is desired. This argument works against both sides here.

Which actually leads to option 3: maybe it didn't matter who cast the spell! Maybe Fate just wanted Wanda to get the spell (since they wanted GK to be the side for whom the spell was cast), then as long as it was cast all would be well and good. Maybe the spell would have chosen Parson no matter who cast it, as Fate had decided that Parson would be summoned. In that case the whole game about offing a caster plan and how they priced the spell and the casting plan was all just designed to get Stanley to buy the spell.

Back on the topic of the Military and gamers, it is weird that there is nothing about it. I know a lot of stuff pre-internet never made it to the internet, but historical facts tend to show up on wikipedia and such. I can't find any mention of this when I read through articles on the history of wargaming in the military, and I would think such an event would be worth a mention. My guess is that this was an urban legend that ran its course before the internet, and thus disappeared, but maybe you are right and it was just not an interesting enough story to be preserved. Just kind of cool that we are both familiar with the same story from days of yore :lol:
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby spriteless » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:01 pm

When I heard that story about a gamer beating the generals at terrible human cost, it was a compute that had done the playing, after running every variable. The computer had a huge amount of cheap vessels that it just threw at the enemy suicidally. They changed the rules so each craft had to have a certain amount of mobility, so the computer changed it so there are a huge amount of cheap vessels that would suicide if they were damaged (to avoid game over from mobility).

So... I wonder what outstanding predictions Marie expected Wanda to fulfill while in Haffaton. Lots of opportunities to mess with Charley and stuff there.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby El_Chupacabra » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:28 pm

spriteless wrote:When I heard that story about a gamer beating the generals at terrible human cost, it was a compute that had done the playing, after running every variable. The computer had a huge amount of cheap vessels that it just threw at the enemy suicidally. They changed the rules so each craft had to have a certain amount of mobility, so the computer changed it so there are a huge amount of cheap vessels that would suicide if they were damaged (to avoid game over from mobility).

So... I wonder what outstanding predictions Marie expected Wanda to fulfill while in Haffaton. Lots of opportunities to mess with Charley and stuff there.


http://www.amazon.com/Nuclear-War-Benfo ... r+War+1988

One short story was about a kid who loved to play video games (specifically war), and was sequestered in a bunker to run WWIII. He won, but was cavalier about the whole game, not knowing he was fighting with real lives.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:38 pm

spriteless wrote:When I heard that story about a gamer beating the generals at terrible human cost, it was a compute that had done the playing, after running every variable. The computer had a huge amount of cheap vessels that it just threw at the enemy suicidally. They changed the rules so each craft had to have a certain amount of mobility, so the computer changed it so there are a huge amount of cheap vessels that would suicide if they were damaged (to avoid game over from mobility).

Almost the same as your story, except it's in a wargaming tournament rather than a military thing, but this seems like a good candidate to be the originating story:
In 1981, a computer scientist from Stanford University named Doug Lenat entered the Traveller Trillion Credit Squadron tournament, in San Mateo, California. It was a war game. The contestants had been given several volumes of rules, well beforehand, and had been asked to design their own fleet of warships with a mythical budget of a trillion dollars. The fleets then squared off against one another in the course of a weekend. “Imagine this enormous auditorium area with tables, and at each table people are paired off,” Lenat said. “The winners go on and advance. The losers get eliminated, and the field gets smaller and smaller, and the audience gets larger and larger.”

Lenat had developed an artificial-intelligence program that he called Eurisko, and he decided to feed his program the rules of the tournament. Lenat did not give Eurisko any advice or steer the program in any particular strategic direction. He was not a war-gamer. He simply let Eurisko figure things out for itself. For about a month, for ten hours every night on a hundred computers at Xerox PARC, in Palo Alto, Eurisko ground away at the problem, until it came out with an answer. Most teams fielded some version of a traditional naval fleet—an array of ships of various sizes, each well defended against enemy attack. Eurisko thought differently. “The program came up with a strategy of spending the trillion on an astronomical number of small ships like P.T. boats, with powerful weapons but absolutely no defense and no mobility,” Lenat said. “They just sat there. Basically, if they were hit once they would sink. And what happened is that the enemy would take its shots, and every one of those shots would sink our ships. But it didn’t matter, because we had so many.” Lenat won the tournament in a runaway.

The next year, Lenat entered once more, only this time the rules had changed. Fleets could no longer just sit there. Now one of the criteria of success in battle was fleet “agility.” Eurisko went back to work. “What Eurisko did was say that if any of our ships got damaged it would sink itself—and that would raise fleet agility back up again,” Lenat said. Eurisko won again.

Eurisko was an underdog. The other gamers were people steeped in military strategy and history. They were the sort who could tell you how Wellington had outfoxed Napoleon at Waterloo, or what exactly happened at Antietam. They had been raised on Dungeons and Dragons. They were insiders. Eurisko, on the other hand, knew nothing but the rule book. It had no common sense. As Lenat points out, a human being understands the meaning of the sentences “Johnny robbed a bank. He is now serving twenty years in prison,” but Eurisko could not, because as a computer it was perfectly literal; it could not fill in the missing step—“Johnny was caught, tried, and convicted.” Eurisko was an outsider. But it was precisely that outsiderness that led to Eurisko’s victory: not knowing the conventions of the game turned out to be an advantage.

“Eurisko was exposing the fact that any finite set of rules is going to be a very incomplete approximation of reality,” Lenat explained. “What the other entrants were doing was filling in the holes in the rules with real-world, realistic answers. But Eurisko didn’t have that kind of preconception, partly because it didn’t know enough about the world.” So it found solutions that were, as Lenat freely admits, “socially horrifying”: send a thousand defenseless and immobile ships into battle; sink your own ships the moment they get damaged.
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