Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:42 pm

victor227 wrote:One thing I'd always wondered about the Deal of a Lifetime. Why didn't Charlie just wipe out Faq while they were in El-Efbaum? The deal was a sure thing, sure, but it would have been a lot cheaper and easier to send in a dozen Archons or just use the High Elves already outside the city (it's pointed out a dozen times they could have, and should have, taken and razed the city). Can't have been sentimental value for the city, as Faq was going to raze it in their wake anyway. With the High Elves, there's not even a hint of culpability, and no chance for the trial that would have revealed so much about him.

My guess? Charlie & Faq have a Fate date.

One of the big themes running through IPtSF is how Fate will not be denied in Erfworld. Wanda serving under Olive, and Jillian croaking the Ruler of Haffaton... Wanda tried to deny Fate in the first case, and Olive tried to manipulate the second (by setting up the Ruler to be croaked, y'see)

Depending on how Carnymancy works with/against Fate, Charlie might know what would happen if he just tried to wipe-out Faq. And Olive demonstrated that a simple dodge, like trying to make someone else the target, wouldn't work either. But getting the entire court to let him edit their memories and condition them to LEAVE HIM ALONE? All very friendly, all very nonviolent, leaving all the pieces in place so Fate can't replace them with someone else...
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:59 pm

No one in particular wrote:
victor227 wrote:One thing I'd always wondered about the Deal of a Lifetime. Why didn't Charlie just wipe out Faq while they were in El-Efbaum? The deal was a sure thing, sure, but it would have been a lot cheaper and easier to send in a dozen Archons or just use the High Elves already outside the city (it's pointed out a dozen times they could have, and should have, taken and razed the city). Can't have been sentimental value for the city, as Faq was going to raze it in their wake anyway. With the High Elves, there's not even a hint of culpability, and no chance for the trial that would have revealed so much about him.

My guess? Charlie & Faq have a Fate date.

One of the big themes running through IPtSF is how Fate will not be denied in Erfworld. Wanda serving under Olive, and Jillian croaking the Ruler of Haffaton... Wanda tried to deny Fate in the first case, and Olive tried to manipulate the second (by setting up the Ruler to be croaked, y'see)

Depending on how Carnymancy works with/against Fate, Charlie might know what would happen if he just tried to wipe-out Faq. And Olive demonstrated that a simple dodge, like trying to make someone else the target, wouldn't work either. But getting the entire court to let him edit their memories and condition them to LEAVE HIM ALONE? All very friendly, all very nonviolent, leaving all the pieces in place so Fate can't replace them with someone else...


I'd have to agree with that. Charlie and Olive come from the same 'school' when it comes to Fate, having both been part of the whole original Easteros/Westeregg conflict. He's already employed one Fate-guided missile in the form of Judy, he'd be a fool not to take such matters very, very, seriously.

Perhaps it ties into what he did to Jillian? That's the only one we got a perspective on, but there's always the possibility that he altered other members of the Court during their own agreements, or at least Wanda, who was in a similar state. He plucked something from Jillian, what it is I can't really hazard a guess, but whatever it was, it was something that he wasn't doing for kicks. He was fundamentally altering the nature of a unit, risking who-knows-what kinds of damage, all to fight 'the only enemy worth fighting', I'd presume that's Fate, but how the jester ties into that...

He has a similar line with the doppleganger King Slately, how now that he's been cut, he's free. He may be a mere double, condemned, but he has the power to go against Fate itself. Perhaps Jillian's new Faq has a similar role. It's interesting that she was the only one of the RCC members that was not somehow innately predisposed to believe that Charlie was responsible for the mess that broke up the first round, and the only Ruler to allow him to interfere in the coming battle through them (the Haggar manipulation wouldn't have done a damned thing if Jillian didn't let him get that turnamancer into position and linked). Was Fate messing with the RCC, making use of Slately's non-royal paranoia and the Toolism surrounding Wanda to force Charlie to keep his hands off of the coalition so that GK could safely steamroll them as we now know would have happened?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby El_Chupacabra » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:05 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Tonot wrote:Yes, exactly, and Parson can't possibly either demonstrate that. He works a menial position at Kinkos, not at a political science think tank, or the IMF or something. I mean, even if he ran his own successful business, how does that qualify him for setting up an entire world ad hoc?
Parson would have no hope of doing it for Stupidworld, but Erfworld is not Stupidworld. So many things in Erfworld are simplified and given strict structure, so much so that Parson might actually be able to understand all of the rules of Erfworld. It seems like everything that isn't important for fighting is glossed over in the very laws of nature, so that it is possible for every single unit to be specialized for combat, with no need for farmers or butchers or bankers or any other occupation that is so necessary in Stupidworld. Erfworld somehow takes care of all the little things automatically, which means that Parson doesn't need to think about any of those things. Since fighting and magic are the only complicated things in Erfworld, if Parson were to design a world order that didn't involve fighting, all he would need to know about would be magic and at the moment he is surrounded by a whole community of the world's top experts on that subject.

Considering the way Erfworld seems to work, Parson's training in strategy games may actually have better prepared him for restructuring Erfworld than any experience at a political think tank could have. Wanda may not be a Findamancer, but she still had all of Stupidworld and probably much more to choose from. She could have snatched an economist or a leader. She may not have cast the spell as well as it could have been cast, but I seriously doubt she got it totally backward. Whatever it is that Erfworld needs, somehow Parson happens to have it.


It doesn't necessarily have to be something Parson is obligated to set up:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/18/tech/gami ... ten-years/

That "universe" has a peacetime configuration, but the wartime configuration is "stuck" there. If Parson can break the wartime mechanics bad enough, the system may be forced into whatever peacetime settings it has.

Unless there are legends of the first war and they pretty much date from Turn 0, it's possible the early peace years were forgotten, along with the mechanics that made "Peaceful Erf" work. Would love to see more about Erf Mythology -- however, given the possibly routine genocide of sides coupled with the lack of interest in memorials for the fallen, it's very possible the first few Turns or even Hundred Turns were uneventful.

Would be cool to see Book -1000 (many, many turns before Book 0): "The first Erf War(s)".
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:31 pm

El_Chupacabra wrote:It doesn't necessarily have to be something Parson is obligated to set up:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/18/tech/gami ... ten-years/

That "universe" has a peacetime configuration, but the wartime configuration is "stuck" there. If Parson can break the wartime mechanics bad enough, the system may be forced into whatever peacetime settings it has.

Unless there are legends of the first war and they pretty much date from Turn 0, it's possible the early peace years were forgotten, along with the mechanics that made "Peaceful Erf" work. Would love to see more about Erf Mythology -- however, given the possibly routine genocide of sides coupled with the lack of interest in memorials for the fallen, it's very possible the first few Turns or even Hundred Turns were uneventful.

Would be cool to see Book -1000 (many, many turns before Book 0): "The first Erf War(s)".
HA! Now I'm just imagining that starting off with "WOULD YOU LIKE TO PLAY AGAIN?" and Charlie going through things on New Game +. Hilarious. :D
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:12 pm

shamelessmerc wrote:It [lack of the need for a logistical supply line plus all the support elements required on Stupidworld] means that on Erfworld, ANY talented commander can carve out an empire in short order, not just Parson.
I believe that was my main point: Parson doesn't even need to be "the perfect warlord" to be successful, on Erfworld. He only needs to operate as a competent senior officer, and without the brilliance of a Napoleon or a (insert your favorite military genius here). It's only when he runs up against a game breaking reversal of fortune (ahem: Kingworld (*Ptui!*)) that he has to rise above the pale.

Note that GK managed to get to 13 cities even under Stanleys' mediocre leadership plus his penchant for selecting pretty boys rather than actually good CWLs. And after TBfGK, GK went on a highly successful re-expansion even without Parson as CWL, just acting as a sanity checker and behind the scenes adviser. For that second GK did have the twin advantages of the 'pliers and the fact that erupting the volcano both killed massive amounts of RCC/RCCII units plus gave GK an instant and upkeep free army. But still. Even bumping up under the diminishing returns mechanic (about which we know little other than it prevents growth past some unknown point), it took Kingworld (*Ptui!*) to offer the slightest impediment to GKs expansion, as evidenced by the 98.4% chance that GK would have killed Slately and ended Jetstone without it.



Free Radical wrote:A lot of the Predictamancers' plan behind the Perfect Warlord spell is explained here by Marie, including that they picked Wanda as the caster of the spell.
Hmmmm, be careful. That update does not say that Wanda was selected as the caster of the SPW scroll. It only says "Wanda knew", just as Hubble and Janice and Marie "know". And they were not the casters of the SPW scroll, were they?

Lamech wrote:Parson was never meant to be the Perfect Warlord for GK. He was always supposed to fulfill the various roles envisioned for him by the casters. I'm not sure if this was in bonus material or not, but the spell wasn't sold to GK because GK was willing to buy it. It was sold to GK because that was who they wanted to cast it. They chose GK. I wouldn't call it a subversion. They didn't subvert the spell. It was always "The person Erfworld needs for the four prophecies he was supposed to fulfill."
If there was any subversion, it was Stanleys' refusal to purchase the support contract and then his demands for specific physical characteristics (Big! Eats marbits for breakfast!) that was the subversion. That's how they got a PWL who had never fought in combat, mush less led troops in war. That's how they got a fat, lazy gamer boy who, while having the huge advantage of being a gamer in a game-like setting, would still have to go through the crisis of conscience that any real (and good) leader of men in combat would have already gone through: Your orders cause people to die.

I've posted this a few times previously, but it's worth repeating. There was a Pentagon initiative in the 60s or 70s which brought in gamers as consultants. The thought was that even though these guys were armchair generals that they might be able to help junior officers train up faster. The result was utter horror on the part of the observers, as the gamers did what any good gamer will do: Play to the victory conditions. If you place a high victory point value on a hill and don't have a corresponding victory point penalty for losing troops, a good gamer will throw away however many 'men' it takes to capture the hill, and damn the losses. That may have been a failure of the scenarios which were designed, but that was the take-away lesson: Gamers don't value the chits on the board. They are just chits after all. Good commanders need to consider the lives of their men, and not piss them away for what might be a fleeting advantage. The war doesn't necessarily end once the scenario is completed and the victor of that engagement determined. You can indeed win all of the battles and still lose the war.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby wih » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:02 am

Do you have a source on the Pentagon initiative? Sounds interesting to read more on.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:16 am

wih wrote:Do you have a source on the Pentagon initiative? Sounds interesting to read more on.

I don't. I heard about it before the Internet existed. :o It was widely discussed amongst my gaming club at the time. I never saw any official news, and it's possible that it is an apocryphal story.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby LTDave » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:52 am

Oberon wrote:
wih wrote:Do you have a source on the Pentagon initiative? Sounds interesting to read more on.

I don't. I heard about it before the Internet existed. :o It was widely discussed amongst my gaming club at the time. I never saw any official news, and it's possible that it is an apocryphal story.


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"To be a good soldier you must love the army. To be a good commander you must be willing to destroy the thing you love."
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:56 am

By virtue of how we got it, it's definitely apocryphal (this is not a slight against you, just, this sort of thing is what that word means)
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:02 am

shamelessmerc wrote:
Tonot wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote: There are non-Royal sides after all, but unlike in this world where Autocracy relies on systematic coercion and no more,
Woh woh woh, citation please. ;)

Ha! LOL!

But, yeah, basically monarchies rely on "because god said so!" and dictatorships rely on "because this gun says so!", whereas the western democracies justification is "this is as fair a system as we can make, so you should support it both on moral grounds and out of self interest". (Hmmm, also the Communist Party now that I think about it.)


Ah, you go from Autocracy ( which you capitalised, and this is possible, if you have a list of proper-nouns at hand and are working through them ) to Monarchy which you DID NOT capitalise, which is WRONG. However, you seem to equate the two things, and given they both have subtleties and graduations in themselves that make it important that one specify things like "Absolute Monarchy" or "Democratic Monarchy" or "Federated Autocracy" or "Religious Autocracy" and on and on and on and on, I have to point out to you that, not only can you not equate Autocracy with Monarchy, you can't even say something like "Basically Monarchies rely on X" because they are too varied.

My initial request for citation, was in hope that you would look at what you wrote, and realise it was hopelessly too broad, and just wrong.
"Autocracy relies on systematic coercion and no more". It is wrong in more than the "And no more" part, but it is the "And no more" part that made me sqwark.

The kind of "More" that various Autocracies rely on is vast in scope. One of the best "Mores" any of them rely on is the undeniable fact that one kind of Autocracy/Monarchy provides the most equitable and happy society (for all the Commonwealth Nations,) of any of the human societies ever known.

That isn't to ignore that the Commonwealth Nations have a basic underpinning of force, or the promise of force, but then so does every society made up of humans. Any society of humans that tries to do without force as its ultimate arbiter, falls over in a matter of weeks.
Tonot wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote: Any political restructuring Parson might wish to accomplish would have to demonstrate that the gains provided by doing things differently would offset the losses from abandoning "the old ways".

Yes, exactly, and Parson can't possibly either demonstrate that. He works a menial position at Kinkos, not at a political science think tank, or the IMF or something.

shamelessmerc wrote:[

Just because someone doesn't have a high powered job doesn't automatically make them stupid. There are more PHD's working as Janitors than anything else after all.


That might be so, though I doubt it really. But it wasn't my point. Not one person in a million has the depth of understanding you would need to set up and entire working society. You feel otherwise, but I have a trump card.

I have worked a large part of the last forty years in various jobs that keep society running. Farming, plumbing and warehousing. You probably think that you know something about all three of these trades, it is a common thing, in the modern world, to believe that we know about things, we are more interconnected than any society before us.

But if you , or 99% of the members of any society, were told "There is going to be a new society built from the ground up, these three tasks are yours, sit down here, and design them for an entire world of people who HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT THEM, and get it right first time, we can't have any downtime when the new world starts".

How do you think you would do?. I know, absolutely, that you would try, and you would fail. You know why I know that?. Because I HAVE done these tasks for small parts of a society of other people who all know and have varied experience of the trades . . . and i would laugh incredulously if someone told me "You have done this before, design a world, right here, right now, have it work first time every time, all for a bunch of people who know nothing of it".

NO ONE, certainly not a guy who has never done anything but play games, and work in a shop, NO ONE could do this.

NO ONE could design a working world for people who have never had to work.

CAN.NOT. BE. DONE. Even with magic. Maybe ESPECIALLY with magic, because the magic requires you to make it work with one smooth flowing stream of words, and no such thing exists for human society.

Edit to add, for all the posters who say I am wrong, just you SHOW me I am wrong. Design a world of the complexity of Erfworld, right now, make it a magic spell if you like, and make it work FIRST TIME, because all their lives depend on it.

Go on, what is keeping you?. :lol:
Last edited by Tonot on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:16 am

drachefly wrote:By virtue of how we got it, it's definitely apocryphal (this is not a slight against you, just, this sort of thing is what that word means)
Except it isn't what that word means. Apocryphal means something which is commonly held to be true but which is of dubious authenticity. This story may be apocryphal, but that isn't because I can provide no citation. It could also be true, and I'd be within my rights to ask any challengers to find evidence that it is not. I could tell you that gravity pulls us down to the surface of the Earth without citation, and again that doesn't make it an apocryphal statement, even though it is a commonly held belief.

An example of an apocryphal story might be the belief of many fundamentalist Christian groups that the theory of evolution is "just a theory" and therefore does not carry any weight in contradicting the biblical creation story. That is both a commonly held belief and one which is easily countered by scientific evidence, whereas the biblical creation story is unable to provide any evidence that mankind originated in the Garden of Eden with just a single man and a single woman.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:28 am

LTDave wrote:Classic line from the Gettysburg film:
"To be a good soldier you must love the army. To be a good commander you must be willing to destroy the thing you love."
And unless this can be attributed to an actual general of the Union or Confederate sides, I'd say it is an excellent example of why actors, models, Hollywood in general, preachers, and any other idiot in the public spotlight should be given zero credence in matters of science, politics, or really anything in which they are not actual experts. Such as having big tits and being willing to take their clothes off for photographs.

Read: Jenny McCarthy - Former Playboy model with no scientific or medical training. She claims that childhood vaccination causes autism and is a spokesperson for that radical and dangerous viewpoint.

Whoopi Goldburg - Actress with very outspoken political beliefs.

Pat Robinson - Preacher with very outspoken political beliefs.

Why do people even bother to listen to these tools?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:35 am

Oberon wrote:
LTDave wrote:Classic line from the Gettysburg film:


Read: Jenny McCarthy - Former Playboy model with no scientific or medical training. She claims that childhood vaccination causes autism and is a spokesperson for that radical and dangerous viewpoint.

Whoopi Goldburg - Actress with very outspoken political beliefs.

Pat Robinson - Preacher with very outspoken political beliefs.

Why do people even bother to listen to these tools?

I might be wrong, but I think it is because intelligence isn't an imperative in human relationships, and humans are just evolved monkeys*. Monkeys get stuff done by shouting the loudest and waving the more attractive stick, and other monkeys watch them in enthralled(brainless) interest.


*Is aware humans are Apes.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:48 am

Oberon wrote:
Free Radical wrote:A lot of the Predictamancers' plan behind the Perfect Warlord spell is explained here by Marie, including that they picked Wanda as the caster of the spell.
Hmmmm, be careful. That update does not say that Wanda was selected as the caster of the SPW scroll. It only says "Wanda knew", just as Hubble and Janice and Marie "know". And they were not the casters of the SPW scroll, were they?

That update specifically says "So she [Marie] insisted on placing the spell with Wanda". Based on Marie's predictamancy, the spell was placed with Wanda to cast.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:47 am

Oberon wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote:It [lack of the need for a logistical supply line plus all the support elements required on Stupidworld] means that on Erfworld, ANY talented commander can carve out an empire in short order, not just Parson.
I believe that was my main point: Parson doesn't even need to be "the perfect warlord" to be successful, on Erfworld. He only needs to operate as a competent senior officer, and without the brilliance of a Napoleon or a (insert your favorite military genius here).


Yeah, but my point is that a Napoleon/Patton/Hanibal/Caeser isn't ENOUGH. He needs to be a Gandi/Lincoln/Mandela AS WELL! There is no point in him winning the war if he can't win the peace. If all he does is move Erfworld from a "Feudal Skirmish" level of war to modern Industrial Total War instead, that would just make him the worst monster in Erf history.

N.B. I found it amusing I could think of so many historic generals I had to stop, but only three great peacemakers (and I know there are people that take issue with Lincoln)
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:30 am

Tonot wrote: Not one person in a million has the depth of understanding you would need to set up and entire working society. You feel otherwise....


Uhhhh... No I don't, AND NEVER SAID SO! :evil:
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Not Me » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:06 am

Haven't read the hold thread yet so not sure if someone had already posted about any of this, but thought to post a few things that came to mind.

As much as I understand this update is taking place during the night of the same turn of the battle for Spacerock. The encounter at expository bridge, the archons spying on Haggar's army and Charlie giving a "reason" to Sammy for joining Jetstone (Charlie's archons had their turn at dawn), all the battle, Stanley switching capitals, Parson in the MK, Jetstone fleeing to their former capital with the archon prisoner, Ceasar getting drunk and asking Vinny about Faq's defenses all took place this last turn.
What is Charlie thinking/planning right now that is so important to contact Trammennis and then Parson in the middle of the night? Of all the sides involved, Charlescomm would be the one having their turn before the rest. What is so important that he has to gather info or solve things at night and not during his own turn?

Also, we have no confirmation that the image is from Charlescomm at the same time Parson and Charlie are having the Eyebook conversation but I guess we are supposed to assume it is. This would mean that either Charlie has a lot more archons that what the decrypted archons informed Parson during the Summer updates (600 archons with 80% of them on the field with clients or near hot spots = around 120 archons at home) or that somehow Charlie decided to get most of them back home during his turn at dawn (or in previous turns) before all the fighting of that turn took place and before knowing the outcome of the battle.
Only thing I can think of is that ever since TBfGK either Charlie has been boosting his production and/or recalled many of his archons to reinforce his capital. Or is there something else on his mind?

Two other things I thought with this update are about Charlie's way of talking to Parson about the calculation and how will he use the info to pass it to Tram.
On the one hand, it surprised me that Charlie would be telling Parson about the "collateral benefits" he was getting from the conversation while the conversation was taking place so Parson could be even more cautious of what he said or didn't say (maybe Charlie knew there was some way Parson could get around to not telling the result of the calculation and Charlie decided to said everything he did to avoid that option, but I'm not so sure about it).
On the other hand, it will be interesting how he tells Tram about the result of the calculation. If he just gives an estimate, he could have done it without spending a calculation for it. If he tells Tram the exact result he will either have to say he "hired a Mathamancer" to get that number (not sure if Tram would buy that) or tell Tram about the deal he has with Parson (which could get really interesting).
"- Hey Tram, you know I have this deal with our worst enemy that he owes me some mathamancy calculations.
- And what did you have to give to get a deal like that?
- Almost nothing, what I gave was just the difference between the RCC killing Stanely and beating GK way back in TBfGK with your two brothers and your father safe and sound in Jetsone colours and where we are right now."
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby El_Chupacabra » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:14 pm

Not Me wrote:Haven't read the hold thread yet so not sure if someone had already posted about any of this, but thought to post a few things that came to mind.

As much as I understand this update is taking place during the night of the same turn of the battle for Spacerock. The encounter at expository bridge, the archons spying on Haggar's army and Charlie giving a "reason" to Sammy for joining Jetstone (Charlie's archons had their turn at dawn), all the battle, Stanley switching capitals, Parson in the MK, Jetstone fleeing to their former capital with the archon prisoner, Ceasar getting drunk and asking Vinny about Faq's defenses all took place this last turn.
What is Charlie thinking/planning right now that is so important to contact Trammennis and then Parson in the middle of the night? Of all the sides involved, Charlescomm would be the one having their turn before the rest. What is so important that he has to gather info or solve things at night and not during his own turn?


Oversimplified theory: Charlie's still more of a "Let's you and him fight" leader... He provides the information and sells his services, his allies bear the brunt of the cost of the fight. I expect that if he weren't cut off, this would have been more of a "This is what I have on the current situation, and I'm so concerned that you be victorious that I'm waiving my usual fee", with no mention that he could actually win this by himself if he had to. Because Charlie doesn't want any realistic estimate of his capabilities, as that is TMI for any potential adversary, and would make even allies question who the threat is here.

Not Me wrote:Also, we have no confirmation that the image is from Charlescomm at the same time Parson and Charlie are having the Eyebook conversation but I guess we are supposed to assume it is. This would mean that either Charlie has a lot more archons that what the decrypted archons informed Parson during the Summer updates (600 archons with 80% of them on the field with clients or near hot spots = around 120 archons at home) or that somehow Charlie decided to get most of them back home during his turn at dawn (or in previous turns) before all the fighting of that turn took place and before knowing the outcome of the battle.
Only thing I can think of is that ever since TBfGK either Charlie has been boosting his production and/or recalled many of his archons to reinforce his capital. Or is there something else on his mind?


Good question -- I assume Charlie's Ledgers are now moving toward the Red, if these are recalled Archons. Perhaps Parson's best option is to make Charlie permanently paranoid and spend himself into oblivion in "Turtle Mode", unable to lock Parson down long enough to send a guaranteed killing force, and unwilling to chase Parson around the map and exposing himself at home.

Not Me wrote:Two other things I thought with this update are about Charlie's way of talking to Parson about the calculation and how will he use the info to pass it to Tram.
On the one hand, it surprised me that Charlie would be telling Parson about the "collateral benefits" he was getting from the conversation while the conversation was taking place so Parson could be even more cautious of what he said or didn't say (maybe Charlie knew there was some way Parson could get around to not telling the result of the calculation and Charlie decided to said everything he did to avoid that option, but I'm not so sure about it).
On the other hand, it will be interesting how he tells Tram about the result of the calculation. If he just gives an estimate, he could have done it without spending a calculation for it. If he tells Tram the exact result he will either have to say he "hired a Mathamancer" to get that number (not sure if Tram would buy that) or tell Tram about the deal he has with Parson (which could get really interesting).
"- Hey Tram, you know I have this deal with our worst enemy that he owes me some mathamancy calculations.
- And what did you have to give to get a deal like that?
- Almost nothing, what I gave was just the difference between the RCC killing Stanely and beating GK way back in TBfGK with your two brothers and your father safe and sound in Jetsone colours and where we are right now."


1. Charlie, I think, still has the mindset that he can impress Parson into voluntarily joining him? Dubious, of course, if Charlie thinks of Parson now as a "Fate-Guided Missile". Alternately, he's pushing Parson into the mindset of "I can't really hide anything from Charlie, so I might as well be compliant here".
2. Ouch. Considering that Charlie is well-known for having information from "mysterious sources", he might be able to claim he had an accurate count of the order of battle, and just hired a Mathamancer. Tram might be "obligated" to buy it unless Charlie slips -- which is more likely now since he's not used to the pressures of having two people clever enough to analyze everything he says for holes. However, one thought: if Parson appears to be a "Fate-Guided Missile" in Charlie's estimate -- and, if Charlie can convince Tram of that without revealing too much -- then I'm pretty sure that Charlie can argue that what happened at TBfGK was not avoidable and at least they got more information than what would have happened if Charlie had elected to not end the contract renewal.

"- Wait, you could have prevented this? Screw this alliance, you're out. And after I win, we'll review whether we'll allow your side to continue to exist."
"- Tram, that was then and this is now. You need me, I need you; otherwise, we're both croaked. Look at the numbers and tell me I'm wrong."
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby El_Chupacabra » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Tonot wrote:
Oberon wrote:
LTDave wrote:Classic line from the Gettysburg film:


Read: Jenny McCarthy - Former Playboy model with no scientific or medical training. She claims that childhood vaccination causes autism and is a spokesperson for that radical and dangerous viewpoint.

Whoopi Goldburg - Actress with very outspoken political beliefs.

Pat Robinson - Preacher with very outspoken political beliefs.

Why do people even bother to listen to these tools?

I might be wrong, but I think it is because intelligence isn't an imperative in human relationships, and humans are just evolved monkeys*. Monkeys get stuff done by shouting the loudest and waving the more attractive stick, and other monkeys watch them in enthralled(brainless) interest.


*Is aware humans are Apes.


It's a false equivalence between eloquence and expertise, for most. Popular entertainers (and it could be argued that high-profile preachers are entertainers of a different sort) are going to be listened to, because they can talk the talk -- especially if they're already somewhat aligned with mainstream thought. Your average scientist isn't Neil DeGrasse Tyson or Bill Nye (or hell, even the Mythbusters people), they're geeks in lab coats who aren't exactly going to push a rousing speech. And even NDT doesn't have any songs on Top 40 lists or lead roles in Hollywood Blockbusters -- or big boops.

I wonder how many more people would have been so enamored of Hitler had he made a few double-platinum albums, or won an Oscar or two, before entering politics. Nowadays, not so much, but back in the 20s and 30s?

I don't see that we have an Erf Equivalent, except possibly Olive? It would be a bit of a shoehorn exercise, but if we want to attribute something other than malice to her, could be that she started off as popular as Hippiemancers appear to be in Erf, but then went off the deep end when she was convinced her theories could bring peace. Don't quite recall some of the story (shakes tiny, tiny fist at Alzheimers-or-alcohol-addled-brain), but she does fit a bit into the "She's Pretty and Nice, and speaks well of lofty concepts, let's trust her!" mold, on first contact.

/Is "tits" a boop-worthy word?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Falcon X » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:54 pm

Not sure if this has already been addressed, but:

What if the term "Wizard" is a very specific thing in Erfworld. Not just the Oz or Stupidworld references?
For example, it could be like classic Dungeons and Dragons. All the casters in Erfworld, as they stand, act like D&D Sorcerers, gaining power through something innate to them. But Wizards are something entirely different. They are archivists, studying and thriving on the intellect. They memorize existing magic that is scribed in a written or memorized format rather than anything they are born with.

What if Charlie is something closer to that? An entirely different breed of caster we haven't met yet that has access to all schools of magic, but use them in a different manner.
Further, are Parson and Judy the same? Or all warlords for that matter (So as to include Stanley)?
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