Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby mortissimus » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:04 pm

Hm, what I am wondering is: How many calculations has Charlie got left to demand from Parson?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:20 pm

Tonot wrote:Yes, exactly, and Parson can't possibly either demonstrate that. He works a menial position at Kinkos, not at a political science think tank, or the IMF or something. I mean, even if he ran his own successful business, how does that qualify him for setting up an entire world ad hoc?
Parson would have no hope of doing it for Stupidworld, but Erfworld is not Stupidworld. So many things in Erfworld are simplified and given strict structure, so much so that Parson might actually be able to understand all of the rules of Erfworld. It seems like everything that isn't important for fighting is glossed over in the very laws of nature, so that it is possible for every single unit to be specialized for combat, with no need for farmers or butchers or bankers or any other occupation that is so necessary in Stupidworld. Erfworld somehow takes care of all the little things automatically, which means that Parson doesn't need to think about any of those things. Since fighting and magic are the only complicated things in Erfworld, if Parson were to design a world order that didn't involve fighting, all he would need to know about would be magic and at the moment he is surrounded by a whole community of the world's top experts on that subject.

Considering the way Erfworld seems to work, Parson's training in strategy games may actually have better prepared him for restructuring Erfworld than any experience at a political think tank could have. Wanda may not be a Findamancer, but she still had all of Stupidworld and probably much more to choose from. She could have snatched an economist or a leader. She may not have cast the spell as well as it could have been cast, but I seriously doubt she got it totally backward. Whatever it is that Erfworld needs, somehow Parson happens to have it.

mortissimus wrote:Hm, what I am wondering is: How many calculations has Charlie got left to demand from Parson?
According to Mathamancy Bracer, there seems to be 6 calculations remaining at the moment.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby QuothTheRaven » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:05 pm

Is this the final epilogue, or do we have one more?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:42 pm

Do we think Parson being summoned was actually subverted by the Big Minds or something?. So that rather than the spell bring the perfect warlord for G.K. , it brought some hypothetical "Person who Erfworld needs for World Peace" or something like that?.

If yes, why do we?.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:34 am

Tonot wrote:Do we think Parson being summoned was actually subverted by the Big Minds or something?. So that rather than the spell bring the perfect warlord for G.K. , it brought some hypothetical "Person who Erfworld needs for World Peace" or something like that?.
Parson was never meant to be the Perfect Warlord for GK. He was always supposed to fulfill the various roles envisioned for him by the casters. I'm not sure if this was in bonus material or not, but the spell wasn't sold to GK because GK was willing to buy it. It was sold to GK because that was who they wanted to cast it. They chose GK. I wouldn't call it a subversion. They didn't subvert the spell. It was always "The person Erfworld needs for the four prophecies he was supposed to fulfill."
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:58 am

Lamech wrote:I'm not sure if this was in bonus material or not, but the spell wasn't sold to GK because GK was willing to buy it. It was sold to GK because that was who they wanted to cast it.

A lot of the Predictamancers' plan behind the Perfect Warlord spell is explained here by Marie, including that they picked Wanda as the caster of the spell.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:20 pm

Tonot wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote: There are non-Royal sides after all, but unlike in this world where Autocracy relies on systematic coercion and no more,
Woh woh woh, citation please. ;)

Ha! LOL!

But, yeah, basically monarchies rely on "because god said so!" and dictatorships rely on "because this gun says so!", whereas the western democracies justification is "this is as fair a system as we can make, so you should support it both on moral grounds and out of self interest". (Hmmm, also the Communist Party now that I think about it.)

Tonot wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote: Any political restructuring Parson might wish to accomplish would have to demonstrate that the gains provided by doing things differently would offset the losses from abandoning "the old ways".

Yes, exactly, and Parson can't possibly either demonstrate that. He works a menial position at Kinkos, not at a political science think tank, or the IMF or something.


Uh... not really, he's already demonstrated a number of innovations that greatly improved the fortunes of his side. He doesn't need to create a perfect system, just create something more efficient that is not predicated on continuous war. Then he can say "You should do it my way, my way is PROVABLY better for everybody.". If he can make a side that doesn't NEED to wage war to maintain itself, then eventually everyone will switch to his way of doing things out of self interest. Then the only reasons to have a war would be the usual human greed and stupidity.

Lilwik wrote:Considering the way Erfworld seems to work, Parson's training in strategy games may actually have better prepared him for restructuring Erfworld than any experience at a political think tank could have.


Yep, that's pretty much my thinking. Also, as a game designer, he probably has quite a large knowledge of history, economics, politics, not to mention the fact that when we very first met him, his game was specifically designed to make the players "think outside the box". He's clearly not the "Plot Railroad" kind of GM everyone hates. Sizemore noted that he was both methodical and scientific in his thinking. Just because someone doesn't have a high powered job doesn't automatically make them stupid. There are more PHD's working as Janitors than anything else after all.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:39 pm

Also the scientific method and similar modes of thinking have been ingrained into our way of thought that don't seem to exist in Erfworld. That alone gives Parson an edge.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Oberon » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:15 am

Lipkin wrote:I suspect that the need for the calculation wasn't for one client, but for every client. He'll use it to paint Gobwin Knob as an even greater threat. "Gobwin Knob is coming for you, and only I can help you stop them."
Possibly. At the very least it's a potent figure to how Trem to prove that Charlie saved them and is a powerful ally.


I'm left wondering why archons, who apparently fly or hover effortlessly, would ever bother to form up on the ground. The image of CharlesComm (or whatever the city is called) reminded me of London during WWII, with all the anti air defenses. But the feel is more of Nazi Germany, which armed semi-secretly after the restrictions placed upon them after WWI.

Lilwik wrote:Parson would have no hope of doing it [setting up an entire world ad hoc] for Stupidworld, but Erfworld is not Stupidworld. So many things in Erfworld are simplified and given strict structure, so much so that Parson might actually be able to understand all of the rules of Erfworld. It seems like everything that isn't important for fighting is glossed over in the very laws of nature, so that it is possible for every single unit to be specialized for combat, with no need for farmers or butchers or bankers or any other occupation that is so necessary in Stupidworld. Erfworld somehow takes care of all the little things automatically, which means that Parson doesn't need to think about any of those things.
Ever better, Erfworld makes void the military advice that a good leader knows strategy and tactics, but a great leader knows logistics. When your rations pop for you every morning, every one of your troops in the field has zero use for the lengthy supply chain which is required on Stupidworld. And this being the case, Parson doesn't need to rise to the level of a Napoleon in order to manage a was effectively. In fact, his combination of overall good strategy plus specific, unexpected tactics seems to place him about at the level of a Colonel more than even a general officer.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:10 am

Oberon wrote:Ever better, Erfworld makes void the military advice that a good leader knows strategy and tactics, but a great leader knows logistics. When your rations pop for you every morning, every one of your troops in the field has zero use for the lengthy supply chain which is required on Stupidworld. And this being the case, Parson doesn't need to rise to the level of a Napoleon in order to manage a was effectively. In fact, his combination of overall good strategy plus specific, unexpected tactics seems to place him about at the level of a Colonel more than even a general officer.


Logistics still matter in erfworld, they're just oversimplified, like everything else in erfworld is.

In Erfworld, the study of logistics would answer these sorts of questions:

How fast can I move a field army from my primary war front to my secondary, if my goals change suddenly? What can i do to improve that transfer time? build bridges? ships? maintain a strategic reserve of mounts? Is it worth it to generally pop more rapid-movement units, with weaker combat stats, solely to allow me to quickly transfer between fronts?

How much of a schmucker reserve do i need? If i can produce low level units at max production speed, and keep all of them alive and maintained, how many turns until my treasury is exhausted? am i better off disbanding low level units NOW, and placing the cost savings in the treasury, as a hedge against some day in the future, when i might need to overproduce a lot of low level units in a hurry?

What is the cost benefit of hiring natural allies, as opposed to using my own popped units? in financial terms, what is the appropriate mix of natural allies to popped units?

Which mounts represent the most cost-effective source of harvestable rations? Am i better off using expensive mounts with high combat stats, or cheap mounts, which i can afford to eat at will during financially troubled times?

how much does hiring casters from the magic kingdom cost, versus how large is the benefit gained from their spells? If i pay turnamancers and dittomancers to improve my production and harvest of food animals, will the savings in rations break even? What if i add in the costs of maintaining couriers, who can transport those rations to units on the front?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Duggles » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:28 am

Time for a delurk.

I've never registered for this forum as it has always seemed that everyone here knows far more about the comic that I - it always seemed a little intimidating.

But, not longer can I hold my tongue in fear of looking stupid - this post is more about asking for help from the uber-brains that reside here than it is putting forward any clever observations or theories.

Lord Hamster: Yeah, yeah. You're a wizard, Harry.
CharlsNChrg: Um...


Is this Charlie not understanding a cultural reference from Stupidworld, or is it Charlie being lost for words because Hamster (seemingly) knows he's a caster?

We know Charlie is a caster but I had always assumed that his powers come from the Arkendish and not innate casting abilities. Can a ruler even be a caster? Has it been explicitly stated where Charlie's casting powers come from?

I feel that I should know this from the Book 0 updates but I am struggling to remember or find anything useful.

Thoughts?

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:54 am

Duggles wrote:We know Charlie is a caster but I had always assumed that his powers come from the Arkendish and not innate casting abilities. Can a ruler even be a caster? Has it been explicitly stated where Charlie's casting powers come from?

We learned in Book 0 that Charlie is a Carnymancer. The witches who ruled Easteros and Westeregg were also casters. Wanda was also very briefly the ruler of Goodminton after her father died and before the capital fell and she became a barbarian. Likewise, Olive was very briefly the ruler of Haffaton before Haffaton fell.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Duggles » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:59 am

Free Radical wrote:We learned in Book 0 that Charlie is a Carnymancer. The witches who ruled Easteros and Westeregg were also casters. Wanda was also very briefly the ruler of Goodminton after her father died and before the capital fell and she became a barbarian. Likewise, Olive was very briefly the ruler of Haffaton before Haffaton fell.


Of course (/forehead-slap). Never ask questions without sufficient coffee in the blood-stream.

Hmm, is it common knowledge, outside the "deal of a lifetime" that Charlie is a Carnymancer? I know that Jack being decrypted is a way around that deal, but is Charlie aware of that? I dunno, Initially I read the "Um..." as incomprehension, but the more I read it, it could have been a back-footed reaction.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:25 am

Oberon wrote:Ever better, Erfworld makes void the military advice that a good leader knows strategy and tactics, but a great leader knows logistics. When your rations pop for you every morning, every one of your troops in the field has zero use for the lengthy supply chain which is required on Stupidworld. And this being the case, Parson doesn't need to rise to the level of a Napoleon in order to manage a was effectively. In fact, his combination of overall good strategy plus specific, unexpected tactics seems to place him about at the level of a Colonel more than even a general officer.


I'd say that was a disadvantage rather than an advantage, one of the things that makes war on Erfworld so much more attractive than our world. One of the reasons we don't fight wars as much as we used to is that they have become incredibly expensive, not just in direct terms, but in economic terms due to the disruption in trade (it's bad business sense to make war on the country that provides your grain) It means that on Erfworld, ANY talented commander can carve out an empire in short order, not just Parson.

If Parson can't change the fundamental instability of the current system, anything he builds will just crumble into anarchy after he goes (unless he sets himself up as a "living god" and rules forever). The aim of the Hippymancers is not "Peace through Superior Firepower" after all, it's "Peace through a Better Way".

I'm assuming of course... Olive Branch was trying Peace through Superior Firepower, but it was pretty grim.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:43 am

Duggles wrote:Hmm, is it common knowledge, outside the "deal of a lifetime" that Charlie is a Carnymancer? I know that Jack being decrypted is a way around that deal, but is Charlie aware of that? I dunno, Initially I read the "Um..." as incomprehension, but the more I read it, it could have been a back-footed reaction.

The thinkamancers seem to have particular interest in Charlie, and even they weren't sure until Parson told them what Charlie's discipline was. They take Parson at his word without any supporting evidence, which suggests to me that Carnymancer was a top contender in their arguments, but if they weren't sure of it I think it's safe to say it isn't common knowledge.

Charlie probably can't figure out any more from what Parson said than that Parson knows he's some kind of caster though, and he doesn't seem to hide the fact that he hires casters from the magic kingdom to link up by Arkendish to make new kinds of spells, so I'm not sure if Parson actually gave away anything important there.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:55 am

Duggles wrote:Hmm, is it common knowledge, outside the "deal of a lifetime" that Charlie is a Carnymancer? I know that Jack being decrypted is a way around that deal, but is Charlie aware of that? I dunno, Initially I read the "Um..." as incomprehension, but the more I read it, it could have been a back-footed reaction.

Considering what Charlie did (and bargained away) to get Faq to sign the Deal of a Lifetime, Charlie's past as a Carnymancer seems to be one of his most closely guarded secrets.

Since there's never been Decrypted before, Charlie probably doesn't know how being brought back interacts with the DoaL. Heck, with everything going on in Spacerock, there's a smallll chance he didn't even see Jack get croaked.

More than just Charlie being a caster or a Carnymancer, it's that Parson called him a wizard that caught him off guard. Back when Charlie was ruling Haffaton and the Emerald City, he was called The Wizard. That is some personal, specific history to Charlie, history he's done a lot to keep hidden (see: Deal of a Lifetime again).

And on that note, welcome to the boards! Don't be shy, we like to see new faces. :D
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:02 pm

No one in particular wrote:
And on that note, welcome to the boards! Don't be shy, we like to see new faces. :D



We* do like to see them wearing silly hats, specifically, so, get busy.
j/k, Hello Duggles, don't be shy, make more posts. ( Pssst. There are two circle-berons, that can be confusing when they start to argue (seemingly) with themself . )



* We means me, here.
Last edited by Tonot on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby victor227 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:07 pm

One thing I'd always wondered about the Deal of a Lifetime. Why didn't Charlie just wipe out Faq while they were in El-Efbaum? The deal was a sure thing, sure, but it would have been a lot cheaper and easier to send in a dozen Archons or just use the High Elves already outside the city (it's pointed out a dozen times they could have, and should have, taken and razed the city). Can't have been sentimental value for the city, as Faq was going to raze it in their wake anyway. With the High Elves, there's not even a hint of culpability, and no chance for the trial that would have revealed so much about him.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:09 pm

Oberon wrote:I'm left wondering why archons, who apparently fly or hover effortlessly, would ever bother to form up on the ground.


Possibly so that any misses from the target practice above, having been aimed into the air zone, would have a much lower chance of striking them? Perhaps like how the dwagons avoided some of the quadrupled arrows by landing when arrows had been aimed at them in the air, at Expository Bridge.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-28.jpg

~~~~~

Victor, your plan would have had an unacceptable risk of a caster escaping to the MK.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lipkin » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:19 pm

Couldn't risk the information getting out. Had Charlie attacked, Jack could have veiled the casters as they all fled for the portal room, and then Charlie's secrets are loose in the magic kingdom.
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