Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Dystopianman » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:35 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:They come pre-programmed ready, willing, and expecting to be ruled. It isn't an issue of culture, it's the way Erf is made. To try and turn it into a democracy would pull the rug out from under them. The majority of units flat out would not know how to function without natural thinkamancy directing them.
That's probably true for people like Wrigley and the Sagittari family of Book 2, Text 55, but I doubt democracy would be a problem for commanders. Jillian would have loved to have more influence in her father's decisions. Perhaps Erfworld can only handle a elitist democracy of commanders, sort of like only allowing people to vote if they have been successfully trained in the knowledge and skills necessary to make the decisions of government. Imagine a democracy where only people who have taken college-level courses in economics, law, or international politics are allowed to vote. In Erfworld, those people are warlords and casters.


Right now, I'd agree that your basic units, and most leadership units (depending heavily on side culture, who knows, maybe theres a "eagleland" side or an "ancient Athenian" side) would find the concept of liberal democracy...or even Athenian style democracy so alien that arbitrarily imposing it would be cruel. As for a democracy of the warlords and casters, Renaissance era Italian Republics and United Provinces would be the closest real world equivalent to what you describe as they are examples of Aristocratic and Oligarchic Republics respectively.

What I'm trying to get at though is not how this could be accomplished within the existing/known rule sets, but how ironclad are Erfworld's "rules?" themselves. Example: Parson was censored, which at the start was ironclad. That censorship has gradually eroded since he first came here. Was that because Parson's presence in the world caused Erfworld to "update its ruleset" or because Parson tapped into a newer, deeper level of Erfworld's ruleset?

Just how complex is Erfworld's system? How deep does it go?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Miryafa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:41 pm

That's a heckuva lotta enemies and guns. The only thing that could possibly get through all that is a single small, agile unit.

I think we're get Touhou up in this place.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby drachefly » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:05 pm

Charlie is UN Owen.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Krennson » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:24 am

Dystopianman wrote:
Right now, I'd agree that your basic units, and most leadership units (depending heavily on side culture, who knows, maybe theres a "eagleland" side or an "ancient Athenian" side) would find the concept of liberal democracy...or even Athenian style democracy so alien that arbitrarily imposing it would be cruel. As for a democracy of the warlords and casters, Renaissance era Italian Republics and United Provinces would be the closest real world equivalent to what you describe as they are examples of Aristocratic and Oligarchic Republics respectively.

What I'm trying to get at though is not how this could be accomplished within the existing/known rule sets, but how ironclad are Erfworld's "rules?" themselves. Example: Parson was censored, which at the start was ironclad. That censorship has gradually eroded since he first came here. Was that because Parson's presence in the world caused Erfworld to "update its ruleset" or because Parson tapped into a newer, deeper level of Erfworld's ruleset?

Just how complex is Erfworld's system? How deep does it go?


I don't think Parson's censorship was a 'rule' of erfworld. What's more likely is that the thinkamancy portion of the summoning spell 'forced' him to speak "Language" as it was known on erf, and wasn't programmed to allow for loan words from his original language, or for the fact that the two different languages would overlap so much.

When parson learned to swear, he was probably 'breaking' the thinkamancy spell controls over him with regards to language, which fits with the scene we were shown. that's not a rule of erfworld as such, just a specific form of thinkamancy magic.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:56 am

Krennson wrote:When parson learned to swear, he was probably 'breaking' the thinkamancy spell controls over him with regards to language, which fits with the scene we were shown. That's not a rule of erfworld as such, just a specific form of thinkamancy magic.
I very much like that theory. It fits very well with the fact that we know that Thinkamancy spells can be broken, such as when Jillian broke free of Wanda's control in Book 1.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Tonot » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:12 am

El_Chupacabra wrote: Leave the vitriol for another board.


Does one know what the English word "vitriol" actually means?. Guess what, it isn't your place to take me to task, which is a good thing, because you did a terrible job of it.

Vitriolic : Adjective, Filled with bitterness and invective. Synonyms are Acrimonious, Bitter, Savage, Malicious, Malignant, Malign.

So, seeing as you can not point to one phrase or even single word in my post where any least bit of the meaning of the term vitriol is contained, I give you the lie, sir. You are false, and because false, also , base.

In actual fact, I was not the least bit emotionally engaged with the person I was replying to, nor did I use even a single un-complementary term. I didn't even say that he was somehow "evil" in his wrongness, actually, just pointed out how a more cosmopolitan approach would view the question.

Now ask me if I actually consider your good opinion worth having, sport. ;)

HOWEVER. If you like to be friends, I like to be friends, and today, just to be a good guy, I offer this "Hmm. I suppose you read my post while you were grumpy, mate. Sorry it took you the wrong way, and you misread it, please to believe me I wasn't being acerbic to the guy I was replying to, no harm done by your post, i forgive you in the spiritoflovingkindness, don't let it worry you a minute more. :P "

Lamech wrote:
I however am going to propose a completely different system for Erfworlders:
ANARCHY


Yeah, something like the Eric Frank Russel short story "And then there were none" where they all lived happily on their own earned/won merits. After all, their present situation exists on a kind of merit based scale, right. Just sadly the merit is earned killing folks, not making cakes and leather goods. So all they have to do is change JUST "how" they earn their merit, and the whole society/ies can go on just as they do now.
Unfortunately I think that would, given many of them are STABBERS, lead to a lot of deaths. I may be wrong, maybe they are all much nicer people than us, and just begging for a chance to throw away their spears and pick up the brassard of peace . . . but sadly, that ain't where the smart money is.

Dystopianman wrote:I guess another way of putting it is which way does Signamancy work? Does the Sign make the man? Or is the Sign just showing what the man is?



AHA. There is always the chance that it is just that easy. Everyone gets a new Hat !. Democracy hats for everyone, and just like that, they think of themselves as "Voters, Pollsters and Representatives" and not "Stabbers, Casters and Rulers".

I don't think this is as silly as it sounds, possibly, because after all, we have seen lots of them take up new positions, just because someone ordered them to.

Whoever ends up ruler, of the world, could just hand out hats with "I'm a Voter" printed on them, and ORDER them to be Democrats, then leave the fine details of what kind of society fell out of the mix, up to their individual whims/position in The House in Relation to the Kings Chair.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Beeskee » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:45 am

I'm not so sure about Charlie making a move on Stupidworld.

Sure, he's got 700 Archons. We have 7 billion people.

Also there's no guarantee that the Archons could fly or cast here. There goes all the real advantages.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby multilis » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:59 am

"Democracy hats for everyone"

I think "devil is in the details".

For example you can have a democracy where 60% of people consistently vote to enslave and abuse the other 40%.

In our current western culture, US is 16 trillion dollars in debt and quickly rising, most of europe is similar shape, with everything else including creating money from nothing as quantative easing, the partisan politics of nearly every issue (if my guy does it is good or ok, if your guy does same thing it is worst president ever)... we aren't that far from what germany was like in late 1920s. German had a tradition of tolerance for hundreds of years before that brought about by all the bloodshed over the catholic/protestant split (in which catholic france strongly supported protestant side, was much about politics as well), according to earlier nazi leader was strongly against german character to kill those that disagreed.

Our "nice" democracies have potential of becoming less nice, US already has tools in NSA to become totaltarian 1984 system to an extreme never before possible where every phone call, computer message, etc is scanned by computer AI to look for "wrong" thinking. Totaltarian state can be a democracy, managed to make sure that the only candidates that have chance to win support the totaltarian state.

Democracy is only as "good" as the intelligence of those that make the decisions. People can choose a system that for example has good chance to lead to thermo nuclear war and every person dies... already to degree happened in cold war when each side needed more and more thousands of nukes, while meanwhile totalitarian china somehow gets by with only a few hundred.

In US the politicians spend as much time fundraising as going after voters in election campaign and less than 1% of population contribute most of the funds and thus have very strong influence on US government decisions. So to degree US is also a moneyocracy.

I'm not so sure about Charlie making a move on Stupidworld.

Sure, he's got 700 Archons.

Thinkomancy and a few people having much power, unclear how well Charlie could do. Control leaders of a few big countries one way or another, NSA and save the archons for hit squads to eliminate any big problems in way that looks like accidents... they have thinkomancy, foolomancy, seduction, flying, etc. 700 is a lot of top assassins if world does not even realize they exist. ("I am an angel with message from god", "I have better drugs", "hottest sex", "world is survival of strongest and I will make you stronger"... charlie can probe minds to find out what important targets want then offer it to get them to be his pawns)

Not saying he is making a move on stupid world, but if he was, he might be dangerous depending on how his tools worked here, and how hard it was to jump across worlds. One small example is it only takes a relatively few people to control the nukes of US and Russia and create a reason to threaten to use them which gives power to wipe out most humans on earth. IF healomancy works here then radiation that kills in a year not so bad if you can heal your own teams cancer every day.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Intocabille_CZ » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:46 am

I thought they strengthened the firewalls on the books?
I guess it still was not enough... pity.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Dystopianman » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:20 am

Lilwik wrote:
Krennson wrote:When parson learned to swear, he was probably 'breaking' the thinkamancy spell controls over him with regards to language, which fits with the scene we were shown. That's not a rule of erfworld as such, just a specific form of thinkamancy magic.
I very much like that theory. It fits very well with the fact that we know that Thinkamancy spells can be broken, such as when Jillian broke free of Wanda's control in Book 1.


In Erfworld's case, game rules would be synonymous with physics. All effects in Erfworld are governed by specific quantifiable rules that also can be used for a table top war game.

No backlash in Parson's case, at least none that could be seen. Also, if its a Thinkamancy effect, whats the originator, Erfworld itself or the "man made" spell that brought him there? It has been shown that such an effect can be broken or thrown off if the subject is forced to go against who he is, presumably causing the subject to exert enough willpower to throw off the spell. Being censored like that was alien to Parson, so he could throw it off...but who or what was responsible for it? It all goes back to the original point, do the rules of Erfworld define the denizens or Erfworld or do Erfworld's denizens define the rules? When he first threw off the effect Parson spoke directly to Erfworld and voiced this same point, albeit in a much more bitter and angry way at the end of book 1.http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F149.jpg
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby tubby » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:31 am

Long time lurker, thought I'd create an account to express this little bit of personal suckage.

I can't load the video, and since there is still no text, I thought I'd check the forum to see if there was word regarding whether the text was not going to happen. Dumb move on my part. I've pretty much spoiled the ending reading the forum. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Yeah, not a fan of this particular experiment.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:58 am

tubby wrote:I can't load the video, and since there is still no text, I thought I'd check the forum to see if there was word regarding whether the text was not going to happen.
If the video doesn't work here then it may be worth attempting to watch it on Youtube. This Epilogue certainly deserves to be enjoyed as a video, so it's good that we have two ways to watch it.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:36 pm

WOOOOO!!!!!

Text version is up and it looks AMAZING!!!! :D

The splash page at the bottom looks SOOO good in full resolution.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:03 pm

Tonot wrote:Unfortunately I think that would, given many of them are STABBERS, lead to a lot of deaths. I may be wrong, maybe they are all much nicer people than us, and just begging for a chance to throw away their spears and pick up the brassard of peace . . . but sadly, that ain't where the smart money is.

Right, which is why you would need heavy duty magic to enforce it. That was the same idea behind the barbarian democracy. Erfworld is made to return to the status quo. Without some heavy duty magic, or complicated social system it will invariably return to the status quo. The reason why we need governments and such on earth and anarchy doesn't work is because people are assholes, and will invariably ruin it for everyone. Plus a lot of people would starve to death or some such without a social safety net. But in Erfworld if you are using magic to enforce behavior and magic to overcome the upkeep issues government is suddenly totally unneeded.

Stabbers would of course be board without anyone to stab, but I believe its better than killing people for the stabbers amusement. Maybe they can turn to the side of a ruler that has elaborate war-game training drills
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby shamelessmerc » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:04 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:They come pre-programmed ready, willing, and expecting to be ruled. It isn't an issue of culture, it's the way Erf is made. To try and turn it into a democracy would pull the rug out from under them. The majority of units flat out would not know how to function without natural thinkamancy directing them.
That's probably true for people like Wrigley and the Sagittari family of Book 2, Text 55, but I doubt democracy would be a problem for commanders. Jillian would have loved to have more influence in her father's decisions. Perhaps Erfworld can only handle a elitist democracy of commanders, sort of like only allowing people to vote if they have been successfully trained in the knowledge and skills necessary to make the decisions of government. Imagine a democracy where only people who have taken college-level courses in economics, law, or international politics are allowed to vote. In Erfworld, those people are warlords and casters.


I don't agree at all - Erfworld is EXACTLY like a pre-democratic autocracy, with commoner and noble alike firmly believing that any other system is impossible. Prior to modern universal voting sufferage, every generation of thinkers believed that full democracy was impossible because the lower classes could not deal with the responsibility of voting.

The text updates have shown repeatedly that the indidividual units have the concious reasoning necessary to excersise free will, and we have demonstrations of the excersise in free will such as "turning", where the "popped loyalty" has been put at odds with the unit's reasoning and core beliefs (Ossomer), and instances of "intelligent disobidiance" such as Ceaser's revolt, and Maggie ditching her previous loyalties, to first Stanley, then to the Great Minds. There is no reason to assume that Casters and Worlords have a fundamentaly different brain structure from common units unless told otherwise.

I interpret anything that is classed as an "Uknowable Stat" (such as loyalty), to be an example of the cultural overlay of Erfworld being interpreted by Erfworlders themselves in terms of the PHYSICS of Erfworld, when in fact there is no such hard and fast rule.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Finwe » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:07 pm

shamelessmerc wrote:WOOOOO!!!!!

Text version is up and it looks AMAZING!!!! :D

The splash page at the bottom looks SOOO good in full resolution.


Also looks like the red glow was retconjured to blue.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:41 pm

Finwe wrote:
shamelessmerc wrote:WOOOOO!!!!!

Text version is up and it looks AMAZING!!!! :D

The splash page at the bottom looks SOOO good in full resolution.


Also looks like the red glow was retconjured to blue.

What are you talking about? It's always been blue.

ALWAYS. :shock:
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Zeku » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:46 pm

So now that we have the text version, I thought I'd point out that Charlie was familiar with 'U mad bro' but he didn't seem to be familiar with Harry Potter.

Does this mean something? How does he have knowledge of recent internet activity from Stupidworld? Wouldn't that make him aware of the existence of Harry Potter? Was it Parson himself who first said 'U mad bro?'

I enjoyed the video version but I still prefer the comic version, and I don't think the picture of Charlie's army and their assault rifles really necessitated special expository methods.

By the way, 'Trolololo' isn't highlighted in any of the text boxes, so it's easy to overlook it if you're just looking at the colored text.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby technojunkie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:59 pm

Zeku wrote: Was it Parson himself who first said 'U mad bro?'
Now that you mention it, He may very well have , probably beginning of book 2. Now I gotta go look...
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:04 pm

Zeku wrote:So now that we have the text version, I thought I'd point out that Charlie was familiar with 'U mad bro' but he didn't seem to be familiar with Harry Potter.

Does this mean something? How does he have knowledge of recent internet activity from Stupidworld? Wouldn't that make him aware of the existence of Harry Potter? Was it Parson himself who first said 'U mad bro?'

I enjoyed the video version but I still prefer the comic version, and I don't think the picture of Charlie's army and their assault rifles really necessitated special expository methods.

By the way, 'Trolololo' isn't highlighted in any of the text boxes, so it's easy to overlook it if you're just looking at the colored text.

I took Charlie's "Um..." less as "What does that mean?" and more "Wait, are you just making a reference or do you KNOW that I used to be called the Wizard?"

Possibly with a hint of "Oh SHIT, he knows I used the be the Wizard! He has intel on my past! WHERE DID HE GET THIS OH GOD CAN'T SHOW WEAKNESS SAY SOMETHING"
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