Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby kbuyle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:46 am

Up to this point I have been an epilogue reader (as opposed to a watcher/listener.) If the rest of the epilogues had been done like this, it would be the other way around. Awesome.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:17 am

Free Radical wrote:There's a very simple answer for why Parson gave Charlie those first answers that might have gone against Duty - Charlie almost certainly wrote the terms so that if Parson hadn't agreed to the calculations he wouldn't be prevented from croaking Stanley with Transylvito, so Duty wouldn't be clear that answering the question was worse than not answering.

Actually this probably makes the most sense. Charlie's obligations only held as long Parson kept up his end of the bargain and visa versa.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Diacritic » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:02 am

OH MY GOD THAT SOUND MAKES ME STABBY
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:20 pm

Y'know, while I have said I really like what they did with the video... I actually wonder if the voice over was appropriate for this one. Afterall, they a speaking through instant messaging, not speaking vocally. Not to mention that I don't really like the videos when they have more than one person talking since the characters sound the same. Would be better if maybe we had more than one person doing voice overs so that we could get different voices to distinguish between the characters. Or maybe if the voice actor used a bit more range in their voice; kinda like how they gave Vinnie a bit of accent... different accents for different characters, or using a higher or lower voice between characters. That might be nice. Not sure though

wih wrote:My take RE: Book 1's calculation - if Parson didn't offer the chance of him taking GK in Book 1, then Charlie would have taken that as a "You could overrun us right now, come attack". It would have been in his best interests to give a figure that would have ensured him to not attack then and there. Duty would have compelled him to answer.


not really. Charlie made two requests; first to tell him if he could take GK with 14 archons, and then how many additional archons it would take. Since the answer to the first question was "no" that means that charlie could NOT have overrun them; even if he interpretted parson's lack of an answer like you said, all it would have resulted in was Charlie's loss. The second question however could not be interpreted the way you say. Even if Parson gave Charlie the first answer, at that would mean to Charlie is that 14 archons is not enough; he would have no idea how many more archons he would need to overrun GK

Free Radical wrote:There's a very simple answer for why Parson gave Charlie those first answers that might have gone against Duty - Charlie almost certainly wrote the terms so that if Parson hadn't agreed to the calculations he wouldn't be prevented from croaking Stanley with Transylvito, so Duty wouldn't be clear that answering the question was worse than not answering.


No. Parson would only be in violation of their deal if he refused to give the calculations for no good reason. As this page/video implies, Parson is NOT required to provide Charlie with calculations that could harm his side... Their deal supposedly makes an exception for any calculations that could be used to harm GK
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby splexis » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:09 pm

SnowballMan wrote:Dredged this old account out of the muck and debris to ask one very important question:

Why are they using phrases like "U mad bro" and "Trololol" when those didn't become popular until after Parson left our world?

(I haven't really been keeping up on the text portions or any of the discussions so I may have missed if there was a stated reason why modern elements are making their way into Erfworld but even if the world itself is synched with ours why would Parson be using phrases from after he left?)


I few ideas: First, possibly because such lexical forms were a result of digital networked technology in day-to-day use: that technology exists in Erfworld (eyebooks), and therefore, it's not so surprising to see, for example, "u" instead of "you." Second, possibly because Erfworld is a distorted mirror (miwwow?) of Earth (spiders/sipdews, etc.), so: Erfworld != wargamified anachronistic RPGland, but rather, Erfworld = wargamified wierd and metonymic RPGland.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Free Radical » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:42 pm

MonteCristo wrote:No. Parson would only be in violation of their deal if he refused to give the calculations for no good reason. As this page/video implies, Parson is NOT required to provide Charlie with calculations that could harm his side... Their deal supposedly makes an exception for any calculations that could be used to harm GK

No. I'm not talking about Parson being in violation of their deal. That's irrelevant.

I'm suggesting Charlie only needed to screw over Transylvito if Parson came through on his end of the deal. Charlie could easily have written the contract in such a way that if Parson refused to do a calculation on any condition (which would include on the basis of Duty), Charlie wouldn't have been contractually obligated to hold his end of the deal.

Since, if Charlie wasn't held to his part of the deal at the time, Stanley would almost certainly have been croaked, Duty would have been unclear on whether telling Charlie the results of the calculation was bad for the side by increasing the chances of Charlie taking the Capital or good for the side by saving the ruler without whom the side would fall, or possibly it would even outright favouring telling him.

Since Charlie's part of the deal is completed, Parson's Duty no longer needs to take into account "if I don't answer this question, Stanley dies next turn, ending the side", which is why he's now being more affected by Duty when forced to do a calculation against the interests of his side when he wasn't on the first night.
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How many calculations does Charlie have left?

Postby sorceror » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:00 pm

I seem to recall the original deal was for ten calculations; I don't have time to dig through the archives, but it would seem that around six have been used so far. Anyone have an exact count?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby bladestorm » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:35 pm

MadZuri wrote:I wonder how many of those "red archons" are actually dolls. We have already seen Ace build items that grant abilities that mimic archon abilities: flight, shockamancy, limited foolamancy. It would only take a little bit of realization to put all that together in one unit.

Since a dollamancer can grant abilities they don't have access to, I wonder if they could grant leadership or the dollamancy special as well. If that is the case, and if archons can build doll archons, then doll archons could build doll archons. Recursive.

Also, I am sure if it isn't possible, it could be with just a little bit of bending the rules. Should be a doable task by a master class carnymancer with access to an arkentool.

Maybe that's how Charlescomm has such a high production rate for Archons.... Maybe they aren't real archons, but just doll facsimiles of archons. That would make them much more expendable. Maybe the only real Archons are the inner circle Charlie keeps around himself.... Hmmm
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby badninja » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:43 pm

Ok this is a way to end this book, all Attack of the Clones route with out a sappy, poorly written love sup plot. Charlie now knows Parson is aware of his past, witch he would have liked to have kept secret and Parson revealed a little to much about his plans. Charlie is now sweating the small things because Parson has learned one of his top secrets, now he will wounder what else Parson can understand.

The last panel is truly scary, guns in Erfworld. I see the industrial revolution coming to Erfworld and as Stupidworld has shown once that begins war gets ugly fast and requires a new way of thinking. Back in Book 1 Parson stated that that battle for GK was designed to be about cheating, GM vs Players. The players had to find a way to cheat the GM to win. The next battle is coming and the rules have changed in an unexpected way how will Parson cheat to win this time?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:30 pm

MonteCristo wrote:
No. Parson would only be in violation of their deal if he refused to give the calculations for no good reason. As this page/video implies, Parson is NOT required to provide Charlie with calculations that could harm his side... Their deal supposedly makes an exception for any calculations that could be used to harm GK

Parson wouldn't be in violation of the deal if he had refused. But Charlie could have written his part of the deal such that his part is contingent on Parson giving him all calculations he asks for. Say:
[Not helping TV croak Stanley] so long as Parson has not refused to supply any calculations. Parson could have refused to help Charlie get the right number of Archons, but then Charlie would just croak Stanley.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby No one in particular » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:49 pm

Re: Calculations
There should maybe be a separate page set up for these, but for now there's a nice summary of them at the bottom of the Parson-Charlie page
According to the wiki, the deal was for 12 calculations and with his last update 6 have been used.

Re: The Calculations in TBfGK
Parson may have refused to run the odds if they hurt his side... but the issue becomes "would those calculations really have hurt the Side?"

Which would hurt the Side more? Losing the City but keeping Charlie out of the fight with the Tool, so the Ruler can still escape? Or letting Charlie keep the alliance with TV and stomping the Tool on the way to Faq?

Re: Memes, LOL
Do we know when Parson was sucked into Erfworld? I think it's supposed to be 2006, right? According to "Know your meme", the U Mad thing was as early as 2003/2004, so that's not unreasonable.

TROLOLO appears to be from 2009 though, so I have no explanation for that. *shrugs*
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lamech » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:01 pm

Perhaps Erfworld is constantly updating with new Memes?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby multilis » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:55 pm

Lamech wrote:Perhaps Erfworld is constantly updating with new Memes?

I guess same thing, Erfworld already modifies Parson's sleep and sword of ruthlessness, not such a stretch that background ideas are stuck into his head.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:07 pm

And twoll regeneration.

And black dwagons.

And... Yeah, Parson should know the game's AI is a cheating bastard.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Jorgath » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:35 pm

On the subject of the calculations: y'all are missing a simple theory. Back in Book 1, although Parson considered Charlie a potential threat, he didn't consider him an outright enemy yet. Now he does. His Duty to avoid revealing information is therefore stronger now than it was.
"It matters not how strait the gait,
how charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul."
--William Ernest Henley, Invictus

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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby IronBear » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:20 pm

Guppy wrote:If the red glow is indeed decryption, then this has some serious strategic consequences. Aside from zero upkeep, it also means that Wanda's snowball-mechanic no longer functions vs. Charlie (cannot re-decrypt fallen Archons).

The second issue is how Charlie managed to apply decryption to his troops. I'm thinking it is a multi-caster Carnymancy effect, and that decryption is a status effect just like "flying" or "heavy unit" and Charlie has managed to reverse-engineer it from the captured Archon. If Carnymancy can manipulate decrypted status, this also brings up the question of whether decryption status can be removed from a unit (and whether this would dust the unit or render it living again).


How could Charlie have reversed engineered a decrypted archon, when Jetstone still has his decrypted archon?
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby IronBear » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:40 pm

SnowballMan wrote:Dredged this old account out of the muck and debris to ask one very important question:

Why are they using phrases like "U mad bro" and "Trololol" when those didn't become popular until after Parson left our world?

(I haven't really been keeping up on the text portions or any of the discussions so I may have missed if there was a stated reason why modern elements are making their way into Erfworld but even if the world itself is synched with ours why would Parson be using phrases from after he left?)


I have noticed that creep also. Parson always seems fresh, but from our prespective he was taken to Erfworld years ago.

One simple explaination is that Parson was actually taken the day after the series ended, NOT the day that the comic first came out. So if Erfworld ends on May 25, 2017, then the day Parson was plotted out of Stupidworld was May 26,2017. Nothing in Parson's appearance in Stupidworld concretely ties him to a specific point in time (the magazine he is reading could be old, and Dungeon magazine something that can be read years after it was published).

Now that said, if this comic does go on for 15 years, then Rob can no longer make the excuse of a floating start point. He will definately have to watch Parson's mannerisms and make sure they are timely. Like for instance if Kinko's changes its signage or goes out of business in 2015, and Parson is wittly tosing around the lingo of 2020, then it will be very damaging to the paradigm.

Another possiblity is that Erfworld is actually in a dream-like existance. When Parson sleeps in Stupidworld he wakes in Erfworld, and vice versa. If that is indeed happening, he would remain up on pop culture. The constantly updating pop culture refferences could in this case be foreshadowing.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby Lilwik » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:06 pm

IronBear wrote:Another possiblity is that Erfworld is actually in a dream-like existence. When Parson sleeps in Stupidworld he wakes in Erfworld, and vice versa. If that is indeed happening, he would remain up on pop culture. The constantly updating pop culture refferences could in this case be foreshadowing.
I don't think that's really a possibility. Parson has no way of knowing that Erfworld isn't a dream, but we know that Parson physically vanished from Stupidworld in a blast of magic. But that doesn't mean that Erfworld and Stupidworld aren't somehow connected. On the contrary, we know that they are connected, since travel between the two worlds is possible. Perhaps some natural magic for some reason causes ideas from Stupidworld to show up in the minds of Erfworlders, or perhaps Stupidworld is a nothing but a reflection of Erfworld through a funhouse mirror, like Erfworld's twisted stupid twin.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby ftl » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:26 pm

Another solution: stupidworld isn't exactly our world. There, u mad bro and trololol were around earlier. And, coincidentally, all other memes that appear on the internet for us get retconjured into stupidworld-before-parson-left.
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Re: Epilogue 25 - Parson and Charlie

Postby IronBear » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:26 pm

Dystopianman wrote:Call of Duty, Modern Warfare.

That being said, going off the modern/World War motif thats been going on lately, can Erfworld's rules of rulership be changed or adapted to fit more progressive forms of government than Monarchy/Dictatorship? Right now, from a political science point of view, the world thus far seems to be divided between Monarchists and Autocrats (overseers.) The rules of rulership of Erfworld reflect this reality (ruler has absolute power over subordinates can disband/end existence at whim.)

However...

If Parson is supposed to launch a war to break wars, (war to end all wars aka WWI), that posits some interesting questions. World War I was the death knell of Monarchy in Europe. From its ashes, Liberal (in the classical sense) Democracy, Communism, and Fascism took its place amongst the various post war nations. While Fascism and even Communism could still conciveably function within Erfworld's rules of rulership, Liberal Democracy presents new challenges.

Can Erfworld's rules of rulership be adapted or even -changed- to reflect a truly democratic side?

Francis Fukuyama once theorized that if every single country in the world was ruled by a true Liberal Democracies, War as we know it would end, because people would never vote to go to war against each other.

Can the rules of Erfworld, and thus its very physics, be changed? Or do they evolve or adapt to reflect the new realities on the ground? Are there already rules for them already in existence that /have not been discovered by the populace yet/?

As a corollary the presence of modern weaponry within Charlie's forces, begs that same question from a military perspective. There are implications for night operations, nuclear weapons, artillery barrages from miles and miles away, and fixed wing aircraft that can only spend a limited time in the air and require specialized faculties, and so much more in the book of modern warfare. Can the rules be changed to accommodate them? Do they evolve? Or, most intriguingly, are they already in place but as yet undiscovered by the people of Erfworld?

Are there space hexes?


Actually I think it would be possible to initiate democracy in Erfworld. Here is how you could do it:

1) A ruler releases all his units as barbarians
2) The ruler allies with the units as they are released.
3) Since we have strong evidence that sides can pop rations and maintain units for other sides & barbarians, those allied barbarians would get their rations from the side they were once a part of. And even if they can not, we have proof that sides & barbarians can transfer smuckers without the need of moneymancers. The side could just transfer a stipend to these units.
4) These units now set up a democracy, and elect a leader. The ruler forfeits the capital and the leader takes the capital as its new ruler and side. The ruler effectively becomes the president of a "barbarian democracy", and when his term is over, he steps down and a new elected ruler refounds the side.
5) In order to keep the "president" in check, a group of barbarians would effectively hold the president hostage and force him to release all units he pops as a president of the side as barbarians.

There are some powerful advantages to this:
1) One clear advantage of such a "barbarian democracy" is that it is immune to decapitation attacks. Normally if a side loses its ruler, everyone in cities freezes and those outside the side disband. In a barbarian democracy, a pre-choosen vice president would just refound the side and all the barbarians would realign with it. If the capital is also taken, the outlying cities are still under barbarian control. Those barbarians can use them the captured cities as bases until they can retake their capital.
2) A barbarian democracy can utilize insurgency tactics. When a normal side looses its capital and ruler, it is game over for that side. A barbarian democracy can live off the land, waiting for a side to weaken.
3) A barbarian democracy can avoid expansion upkeep penalties. Essentially a barbarian democracy could be made up of hundreds of capital sites that each have their own senator and are answerable to a president.

There is one powerful diplomatic advantage:
1) A barbarian democracy could offer citizenship to casters from the Magic Kingdom. I imagine that a lot of casters may be interested in a steady paycheck.

There is also one overwhelming advantage that could make them clearly superior. I highly suspect that barbarians have a lower, perhaps MUCH lower, upkeep than units in sides. I point to two items as my evidence:
1) The Magic Kingdom. The Magic Kingdom has hundreds, perhaps thousands of spellcasters in it. Additionally, it seems like these casters lead a largely idealic, scholarly lifestyle. They work, but not much. And when they work it is mostly for other spellcasters. I find it inconceivable that the Magic Kingdom generates enough smuckers to keep that many spellcasters funded. However if the barbarians have lowered upkeep, it could explain a lot.
2) Jillian's Escape. Jillian operated without anyone paying her smucker upkeep for several turns when she was an escaped prisioner. All Jillian had to worry about is provisions. So there is a state of reduced smucker upkeep already in the system.

If indeed Barbarians do have lowered upkeep, then Barbarian democracy could be a very scary thing.

I have thought this possiblity out because I suspect it is something that Parson will try when he finally becomes a ruler.
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