Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Oh, I found another thing I agree with Oberon here: casting from tower juice is both totally made up and doesn't fit.

'Since Yesterday' suggests that it started yesterday, else it would be 'all day'. Being linked all that time seems pointless since the volcano demonstrated that if there's a warmup period it's insignificant. Pointless, that is, unless they needed to be linked all that time to pull off Kingworld.

Also, Vanna had been hired by Jillian for speeding up heir production.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:02 pm

The real problem that has to be figured out here is how the "taking two turns worth of juice" actually happened, mechanically speaking. Because there is definitely no answer in the comic, so all theories we suggest to explain it are equally made up. Possible explanations (all equally possible because no evidence exists on the subject) are:
  • The spell was being charged over the two turns because they had insufficient juice to do it instantly (unlike the Volcano, where they apparently had enough juice easily). This would explain why they were linked so long.
  • Charlie or Vanna pulled juice from their respective towers.
  • Combined, they had enough juice to pull the whole thing off, but that combined pool was about twice Vanna's normal juice maximum.
In the latter two cases, the length of the link could be simply because Charlie needed some time to interact with Vanna and together figure out how to weave the spell.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:24 pm

I am of the opinion that it was the last option. Charlie is almost without a doubt the highest level caster in the comic thus revealed due to his age and simply because of how much he's done; though we don't know what level he is, I would postulate that he has a lot of Juice to contribute. By pooling their respective Juice, which is a part of what a trimancer link does, they were able to complete the spell and when Charlie broke it off, Vanna only had a small portion allocated back to her (whether from how the mechanics of how such things work or because Charlie kept more for himself, but that's not really relevant of this conversation).

Jillian wasn't asking how much Juice Vanna had left to figure out how much the spell had cost, she was asking because she wanted to know how much Vanna had for the purpose of Turning Ansom. Vanna's reply that it had 'cost two turns worth of Juice' was just an explanation about why she was 'low' after the trimancer spell. It was basically her way of impressing on Jillian, a warlord, how taxing the spell had been without being able to put a hard number on it. Casters have repeatedly said that they remember little of the details or the 'how' of things that were done when they were in a link. Vanna might not have had a hard number to put on the cost, just a feeling of how immense the cost had been.

Also, I don't think it's ever been stated that Casters put Juice into the tower. Whenever they talk about spells going into the tower, they are 'spelling it up' or 'casting spells on the tower' specifically for the purpose of air defense/offense. I don't believe they can pull Juice out of the tower, because they're never really putting 'pure' Juice into it. All they can get from the tower is it's bonus, though we don't really have any idea how that applies or what it applies to other than the caster's bonus when attacking from the tower.

So, I don't think Vanna or Charlie could have pulled Juice from any tower to power the spell.

Take any or all of this as speculation or whatever, to me it just all fits within the frame of what we know so far. Like I said before, sure 'Kingworld' might be Overpowered, but pretty much anything a trimancer link can do can be viewed as OP. Both times we've seen a trimancer spell cast the reaction was pretty much jaw-dropping awe and incredulity.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:35 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:Also, I don't think it's ever been stated that Casters put Juice into the tower. Whenever they talk about spells going into the tower, they are 'spelling it up' ... So, I don't think Vanna or Charlie could have pulled Juice from any tower to power the spell.
I'm inclined to agree, it would have been more accurate for to say that perhaps a part of the spell was already cast and stored in a tower, like the way epic spell seeds work in D&D for example. Cast part of the spell, then call it up later to complete everything.
Also, I think Bust a Cap showed us there may be some degree of flexibility when a Caster fires tower charges. Given the niche applications of his school, it seems likely Lloyd was responsible for the bulk of the tower defenses, yet Cubbins was able to drain it all and manifest it as Hat Magic. Perhaps this is because the Dittomancy was simply amplifying his own spell and charges, but still it's possible that spells aren't set in stone (pun intended)....but more like...drawn in thick mud.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:05 pm

It has actually been stated that casters put 'raw' Shockmancy into the tower in the Book 0 updates. We don't know if other types are possible, but I'm inclined to say that it isn't due to the relation that Shockmancers seem to have with Air Defenses and towers.

Also, I can't find anywhere that it says Cubbins was using spells from the tower or anyone/where else to power his 'Bust a Cap', and considering how the tower was breaking apart, I wouldn't even say with any certainty that he had gotten a bonus from the tower at all. I think he was just dumping all his juice into one final spell moments before his untimely (or so he though) death.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:12 pm

Book 0, Episode 78 wrote:Jillian put most of the rest of them to work spelling up the tower. Useful for a change, Rusty Trombone designed and directed the implementation of an interlocking array of spells that would draw on some of the magical disciplines they had to work from.
This contradicts the earlier statement, so presumably both methods are options.
I coulda sworn somewhere somebody (I think it was Ace) says Cubbins drained the Tower too, I'll go looking for that now because it will be harder to find. The Book 0 thing i knew exactly where to find.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:59 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:It has actually been stated that casters put 'raw' Shockmancy into the tower in the Book 0 updates. We don't know if other types are possible, but I'm inclined to say that it isn't due to the relation that Shockmancers seem to have with Air Defenses and towers.


Reading that, I think the rawness isn't so much that it's not clad in spells, but that it's direct damage. After all, in the same update, surrounding that, we have

Book 0 episode 20 wrote:The actual effect the new air defense spells might have on an enemy wasn't something she understood well. It was for a warlord to say how useful something might be in battle.
She'd told Tommy about spelling up Minnow Tower, and he'd said it was smart thinking. But he never said what kind of effect the raw Shockmancy they were storing in the tower might have in battle. He had let her believe that it might, in fact, be enough to save the capital. Was he only trying to boost her confidence?
Oh... and he must have also told Fritz just how pathetic those few extra spells really were, because Fritz wasn't even surprised.


"air defense spells"... "spelling up"... "few extra spells"

So raw or not, it's still a spell.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Sir Shadow » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:02 pm

I never said it wasn't a spell, I was more indicating that it as Shockmancy as opposed to Predictamancy or Luckamancy they were putting into the tower.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:11 pm

There was a question earlier as to who hired Vanna. We know the answer to that. It was Charlie's idea, and he is fronting her bill. Jillian said that in one of the text updates. As for who she is formally allied with, I'm going to guess Jillian, because Slately didn't seem to detect any Charlescom units on the tower.

And it was my understanding that any allied casters on the tower automatically got the tower bonus. I have no proof of this, but since every other bonus has been passive and due to proximity, it's not really a stretch. Jillian is an ally of Jetstone, so if Vanna is in her employ, she'd get the tower bonus.

*sits back and waits for Oberon (*ptui!*) to go off again.*
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby drachefly » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:16 pm

Sir Shadow wrote:I never said it wasn't a spell, I was more indicating that it as Shockmancy as opposed to Predictamancy or Luckamancy they were putting into the tower.


Well, that's interesting, but regardless, my point is, we have no precedent whatsoever for plopping juice as juice into a tower. If it worked that way, we really probably would have seen it by now.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby 0beron » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:20 pm

Lipkin wrote:As for who [Vanna] is formally allied with, I'm going to guess Jillian, because Slately didn't seem to detect any Charlescom units on the tower.
We have even better proof. Vanna is boosting FAQ's production queues, so she must be in the employ of Jillian. Charlescomm and FAQ can't be formally allied, because Jillian is allied with the RCC and they won't have Charlie among them. So in order for Vanna to boost, she's gotta be allied with the side she's boosting.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:32 pm

Werebiscuit wrote:We can surmise that the instruction was to Vanna and it was to loose the spell effect but it's stretching it to say it makes it a one turn spell, granted it's also stretching it to make it a two-turn spell but what i'm saying is that it doesn't define it as one or the other apart from personal speculation.. Therefore it has no objective evidence to show as you seem to think.
The objective evidence is that we just see Vanna standing there. No casting going on. If you can point me at another example of casting which requires no words or actions, I'll agree. But I don't think that such an example exists. So, very objective evidence that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) was a one-turn spell.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:12 pm

Oberon wrote:If you can point me at another example of casting which requires no words or actions, I'll agree.
Jack seems to be able to do it in Book 0, or at least no one pays any attention to him when he's casting spells. For examples: Episode 21, Episode 57, and Episode 62. Those sorts of situations would be quite awkward for him if he had to openly say some magic words to make the spells happen.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:42 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:If you can point me at another example of casting which requires no words or actions, I'll agree.
Jack seems to be able to do it in Book 0, or at least no one pays any attention to him when he's casting spells. For examples: Episode 21, Episode 57, and Episode 62. Those sorts of situations would be quite awkward for him if he had to openly say some magic words to make the spells happen.
I don't see Jack casting in any of those images. And in Episode 62 he is throwing the axe in the air, which would have been after any casting he may have done previously. I suspect that the other two also show events either before or after any casting on Jack's part. The written words cannot be used as evidence either one way or the other, as Jack's actions could simply have been excluded, just as we don't get detailed descriptions about what all the other characters in those scenes are doing. In any event, this is not evidence that casters do not need to say or do something in order to cast.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lilwik » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:27 am

Oberon wrote:I don't see Jack casting in any of those images.
I don't see why the content of the illustrations should be relevant, but the fact that you don't see Jack casting does tend to support the idea that he can cast without doing anything obvious. The illustration doesn't show Jack casting because there is nothing to show while he was casting.

Oberon wrote:And in Episode 62 he is throwing the axe in the air, which would have been after any casting he may have done previously.
The use of the phrase "may have" suggests that there is some doubt that Jack cast a spell creating a fake Chillaxe while in full view and hearing of everyone in the room, but surely there is no actual doubt about that. It happened because the text says that it happened.

Oberon wrote:The written words cannot be used as evidence either one way or the other, as Jack's actions could simply have been excluded, just as we don't get detailed descriptions about what all the other characters in those scenes are doing.
The written words are only evidence of the things that they describe, but for those things the words are excellent evidence. What they describe is Jack casting spells without anyone noticing him casting spells. In episode 62 it would be absurd to suppose that Jack's spell required him to speak, because even if people were highly distracted by Judy, they would still have noticed Jack talking. Therefore some spells don't require talking in some situations. We can learn even more from episode 57 where Jack is floating above the tower with Faq while Faq and Haffaton are in parley. Jack's stealthy communication with Jillian couldn't possibly involve saying anything aloud; that would defeat the purpose. For the same reason, Jack couldn't be making any gestures. Doing anything like pointing toward Jillian would give away the very thing that he was trying to hide.

It's possible in each case that Jack was doing something too subtle to notice, perhaps speaking under his breath or wiggling his fingers very slightly, but it would have to be so subtle that Jack would be confident that even a caster wouldn't notice. To Wanda's casual inspection it must have seemed that Jack was doing nothing at all. Therefore these words or actions would be subtle enough that Vanna could actually have been doing them even while Slately was trying to talk to her.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:04 am

Jack cast here without gesture or magic words.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg

As we find out later, the dwagon did not croak, and he made it seem than he and Stanley flew up and away from the corpse. He used a spell later, but that was actually the illusion, because they never stopped being mounted.

Also, here.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-30.jpg

Jack casts and we never see him gesture, or hear him cast.

Issac brings Parson into Thinkspace without casting aloud or gesturing.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -08-01.jpg
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:20 am

Lilwik wrote:I don't see why the content of the illustrations should be relevant, but the fact that you don't see Jack casting does tend to support the idea that he can cast without doing anything obvious. The illustration doesn't show Jack casting because there is nothing to show while he was casting.
No, we don't see Jack casting because the image isn't of the time he was casting. Such as I mentioned about Episode 62, the image is of Jack throwing the axe in the air, which would have been after any casting he may have done previously. His spell casting had to have been before the scene entirely, since "Jillian looked over at Dame Branch, holding the Chillaxe" makes it clear that Olive was holding the axe all along. Unless you're going to suggest that Jack can substitute a real item for an illusion while someone is holding it, which would be quite a potent ability indeed.

Lilwik wrote:The written words are only evidence of the things that they describe, but for those things the words are excellent evidence. What they describe is Jack casting spells without anyone noticing him casting spells.
They don't describe Jack casting spells at all...

Lipkin wrote:Jack cast here without gesture or magic words.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg

As we find out later, the dwagon did not croak, and he made it seem than he and Stanley flew up and away from the corpse. He used a spell later, but that was actually the illusion, because they never stopped being mounted.
Jack isn't visible other than as a speck on the back of the dwagon in panels 2-5, so not seeing him cast isn't indicative of anything. You don't think "Crypsis" is a spell? Or is that what you're referring to as Jack using a spell later?

This one is not conclusive. Jack could easily have cast whatever he used to veil himself and Wanda before poking his head through the portal.
Lipkin wrote:Issac brings Parson into Thinkspace without casting aloud or gesturing.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -08-01.jpg
This is a valid example. It's vaguely possible that Issac had his fingers at his temple or something similar before the panel where he is shown, but I won't deny that it very much appears as though he invoked thinkamancy without either word or gesture.
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:01 am

Oberon wrote:
Werebiscuit wrote:We can surmise that the instruction was to Vanna and it was to loose the spell effect but it's stretching it to say it makes it a one turn spell, granted it's also stretching it to make it a two-turn spell but what i'm saying is that it doesn't define it as one or the other apart from personal speculation.. Therefore it has no objective evidence to show as you seem to think.
The objective evidence is that we just see Vanna standing there. No casting going on. If you can point me at another example of casting which requires no words or actions, I'll agree. But I don't think that such an example exists. So, very objective evidence that Kingworld (*Ptui!*) was a one-turn spell.



Didn't have to..courtesy of Lilwik. So not objective evidence... but very subjective (i.e. open to interpretation)

we are also able to infer she is concentrating and not just "standing" from the text sources ..which apparently are inadmissable :roll:
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Oberon » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:24 am

Why inadmissible? Please make your citation. If it appears to hold water there will be no hangings today!
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Re: Epilogue 23 - Parson and Sizemore

Postby Lipkin » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:43 am

Oberon wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Jack cast here without gesture or magic words.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F114.jpg

As we find out later, the dwagon did not croak, and he made it seem than he and Stanley flew up and away from the corpse. He used a spell later, but that was actually the illusion, because they never stopped being mounted.
Jack isn't visible other than as a speck on the back of the dwagon in panels 2-5, so not seeing him cast isn't indicative of anything. You don't think "Crypsis" is a spell? Or is that what you're referring to as Jack using a spell later?

Yes, Crypsis is the spell he used later, that wasn't actually a spell, because it was an illusion of Jack (unless Crypsis is actually the word to end an illusion, and he made them hear it so they would think he was going invisible. But I think it's more likely it was all just for show, and all the illusions were made without words).

Frankly, it's near impossible to see someone not do something in this medium. Maybe Jack did make a gesture to cast, but if he did, he did it between panels 5 and 6. In panel 5, Jillian is entirely supported by the dwagon, and I doubt Foolamancy can grant flight. In panel 6, the dwagon "croaks." So if there was a gesture, it was quick.




Anyway, found this in one of my reviews.

"He knew she would have kept [Vanna] with her, were it not for the significant spell bonus afforded by the tower."

So Vanna did use the tower bonus, and it's implied she needed it to cast Kingworld, or else she would have done it from Gwiffonback.
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