Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 8:55 am

Well we have different signatures and avatars so it's pretty easy to tell apart, and usually pretty different styles of writing. When quoting however, sometimes people clarify by amending the names to zeroberon and ohberon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lamech » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:11 am

Ditto wrote:Fate had a specific action in mind when Jillian was fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton. Jillian may not have known which one, but Fate did.

I don't think Fate does need to be that specific. Remember when Wanda was talking about it? It was Jillian killing the ruler of Haffaton. Judy, Olive, or even Olive's successor. Or perhaps some other agent if they actually croaked Jillian. Fate doesn't seem to have a complete script. It has key points that it forces to happen.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:27 pm

I really liked this episode. I don't think any one so far, in Inner Peace, or the comic has filled me with so much emotion. The events in this episode came as a surprise, felt tragic, made me sympathize with Jillian, and made me really want to smack Betsy around. So good job Rob. In a world where loyalty and duty are stats, and mind control is common, the characters somehow have more depth that most things I have read or seen.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Sir_Dr_D » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:30 pm

Lamech wrote:
Ditto wrote:Fate had a specific action in mind when Jillian was fated to kill the ruler of Haffaton. Jillian may not have known which one, but Fate did.

I don't think Fate does need to be that specific. Remember when Wanda was talking about it? It was Jillian killing the ruler of Haffaton. Judy, Olive, or even Olive's successor. Or perhaps some other agent if they actually croaked Jillian. Fate doesn't seem to have a complete script. It has key points that it forces to happen.


Well I don't think fate had it exactly planned how Jillian would kill the ruler of Haffaton. But it did want something to happen first. It wouldn't let Jillian shoot her down , and instead Jillian had to shoot Olive's broom. So something between then, and the gate falling on Olive was also part of fates plan.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby peteratjet » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:13 pm

So now I'm wondering how present day Jillian differs from book zero Jillian, after Charlie and Betsy went all "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" on her. She apparently has no memory of her deal with Charlie, or anything at all about Charlie, which suggests that a very interesting conversation with Jack lies ahead.

Wanda should have noticed something missing, which maybe helped motivate her to bring about the fall of Faq. Did Betsy survive that?

Then there's the question of what Charlie was up to. I guess Jillian somehow posed a threat to him. But what? Erfworld is full of warlords. He wanted to remove some specific aspect of Jilian's mind, surgically. The rest was misdirection (he is a Carny after all).

My guess, worth what you paid for it. Her internal jester was a manifestation of a latent ability to atune to the Hammer, and Charlie has an inside steer that the Hammer is going to be Fate's instrument of his destruction. That might explain how and why the anti-Stanley alliance got going at a later date, if Charlie was subtly stroking the G-strings (sorry) of the leaders to remove the threat,

:ugeek:
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Tonot » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:40 pm

ZaMussels with the Hammer of the Titans?. And all those Dwagons?. Everybody better invest in a lot of air defence. Or "Protection" money might be better, pay off the flying death, send her on her way. Let her go sacking over the horizon.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:42 pm

Tonot wrote:ZaMussels with the Hammer of the Titans?. And all those Dwagons?. Everybody better invest in a lot of air defence. Or "Protection" money might be better, pay off the flying death, send her on her way. Let her go sacking over the horizon.
#crapsackOP
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby peteratjet » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 pm

Thinking a bit more , Charlie expunged all knowledge of what he had done from Jillian's mind, so the only other witness to what went on inside her head was Betsy. She may not have understood it,and she [was!is] not a Thinkamancer, but she would still represent a loose end, and we know what happens to loose ends ...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:27 pm

Ansom's being captured by Jilllian was clearly Fated. Maybe Fate wants him to "save" her, and it has something to do with this mind wipe. If so, then Jillian's heir will probably be a Thinkamancer or Healomancer.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby effataigus » Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:47 pm

Had a breather between projects and read a bit of forumizing.

Comics have sure gotten kooky lately. Erfworld is seldom what it seems normally, and I'm really not sure what to make of all of the drug/dream sequences.

I think we're being slowly brought around to the idea that Charlie is using extreme and morally dubious measures to fight an even more sinister foe... and probably the same foe that walloped Parson upside the head with a falling beam. Yes Charlie seems to have devoured a piece of Jillian just now, but who or what put that piece of Jillian there? Why did Jillian always perceive the Jester as a separate entity in her mental landscape rather than keeping it as part of her own perception of self? I don't recall her perceiving any other aspects of herself as other competing voices.

If we looked into the mind of a decrypted person, would we see a jester wearing Wanda's regalia? How about into the mind of a tamed dwagon? Mind control is evil business, and Erfworld runs on the stuff. The question is then whether Charlie is trying to fight that fire with fire of his own, or just profit from from the flames?

Anyway, old ideas...

An unrelated warning for zeroberon that an isolated word in quotes can be interpreted as emphasizing the fact that that was the exact word that the original source used... as well as the doubt-casting air quotes that you seem to have intended.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Tonot » Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:22 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Ansom's being captured by Jilllian was clearly Fated. Maybe Fate wants him to "save" her, and it has something to do with this mind wipe. If so, then Jillian's heir will probably be a Thinkamancer or Healomancer.



Yeah, maybe so with the idea that "Fate" wants her to save him, because (imho) Erfworld is a computer programme run/written/designed by some human person. So that person might well "tweak" the storyline for pleasure/pathos/bathos reasons, aesthetic enjoyment. Wants a happy resolution to a love affair.

Of course, conversely, maybe Fate actually wants Ansom to "save" her. :twisted: Maybe Toolism is the will of the Titans, and the Titans, the Instruments of Fate?.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:56 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Ansom's being captured by Jilllian was clearly Fated.
That's not clear to me. Could you please explain what you're looking at that shows that Ansom's capture was Fated, just so that it's clear to everyone.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Jacinth and Rubies » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:12 pm

Hmm, I know that a lot of people have been suggesting that the Jester is/was Fate - and it may possibly be so. However, after re-reading episode 52, another thought struck me:

What if the Jester doesn't represent Fate, but some aspect of Nobility or Royalty? As weirdly at odds with his appearance as it is, the Jester's behaviour is often... well, rather noble. What exactly is the difference between a Royal Ruler and and Overlord, like Stanley? We still don't know Charlie's official stance on Royals - he may still hate/fear them, even though he's more than happy to work for them (for a reasonable fee, of course). What is the Noble Duty of those born with Royal status, anyway? And it seems that Nobles and Royals enjoy a freedom from some aspects of Duty that other units do not - thus allowing them to turn against their Ruler, as has happened with Transylvito. I'm not saying that Fate isn't part of this, but I am wondering if royalty plays into it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby No one in particular » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:02 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:Hmm, I know that a lot of people have been suggesting that the Jester is/was Fate - and it may possibly be so. However, after re-reading episode 52, another thought struck me:

What if the Jester doesn't represent Fate, but some aspect of Nobility or Royalty? As weirdly at odds with his appearance as it is, the Jester's behaviour is often... well, rather noble. What exactly is the difference between a Royal Ruler and and Overlord, like Stanley? We still don't know Charlie's official stance on Royals - he may still hate/fear them, even though he's more than happy to work for them (for a reasonable fee, of course). What is the Noble Duty of those born with Royal status, anyway? And it seems that Nobles and Royals enjoy a freedom from some aspects of Duty that other units do not - thus allowing them to turn against their Ruler, as has happened with Transylvito. I'm not saying that Fate isn't part of this, but I am wondering if royalty plays into it.
Ooh, you could be on to something there...

Keep in mind, it's also a mental construct, so it would be Jillian's idea of what Royalty is. Who's the most important Royal figure in her life? Her father. How does she feel about Nobility? It's ridiculous, silly when made to deal with life away from court & on the battlefield.

... but some part of her, (the part Don saw back at the tea ceremony), can't help but think it's RIGHT on some level.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:11 pm

Jacinth and Rubies wrote:It seems that Nobles and Royals enjoy a freedom from some aspects of Duty that other units do not - thus allowing them to turn against their Ruler, as has happened with Transylvito.
I'm not sure I agree with this. We really don't have any indication that Royals/Nobles are any freer. If anything, all Commanders seem to have equal degrees of latitude. Wanda is clearly pursuing her own agenda in tandem to the goals of GK. We might say that's because she's not native to GK so her Loyalty is lower, but then look at Maggie who is also supporting other goals despite being native to GK. Also consider that while with Goodmiten even Wanda defied convention; directly opposing her Chief Caster for one, and more subtly "disagreeing" with her father and brother.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:50 pm

0beron wrote:Wanda is clearly pursuing her own agenda in tandem to the goals of GK. We might say that's because she's not native to GK so her Loyalty is lower, but then look at Maggie who is also supporting other goals despite being native to GK. Also consider that while with Goodmiten even Wanda defied convention; directly opposing her Chief Caster for one, and more subtly "disagreeing" with her father and brother.
It has always seemed to me that Wanda is an unusually low-loyalty unit. I expect that loyalty varies naturally form unit to unit. Maggie seems to be a high loyalty unit, but she's a special case since her duty seems to have been impaired by the Great Minds that Think Alike who naturally have power over things like duty and loyalty.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:54 pm

I totally agree, which is why I feel latitude within Duty is not exclusively a Royal/Noble thing.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Shai_hulud » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:23 pm

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:48 pm

Sir_Dr_D wrote:Well I don't think fate had it exactly planned how Jillian would kill the ruler of Haffaton. But it did want something to happen first. It wouldn't let Jillian shoot her down , and instead Jillian had to shoot Olive's broom. So something between then, and the gate falling on Olive was also part of fates plan.

My interpretation was that Jillian had to kill the ruler of Haffaton, whether by stabbing her with a sword or a portcullis. If Olive had been croaked by Shockmancy from the tower, it would have been Wanda croaking Olive, not Jillian. It was Jillian's Fate, so she had to do it. She probably could have stabbed Olive as soon as she was captured, but she didn't. The when and how didn't matter, only the who, if that makes any sense.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Tonot » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:52 pm

No one in particular wrote:
Jacinth and Rubies wrote:Hmm, I know that a lot of people have been suggesting that the Jester is/was Fate - and it may possibly be so. However, after re-reading episode 52, another thought struck me:

What if the Jester doesn't represent Fate, but some aspect of Nobility or Royalty? As weirdly at odds with his appearance as it is, the Jester's behaviour is often... well, rather noble. What exactly is the difference between a Royal Ruler and and Overlord, like Stanley? We still don't know Charlie's official stance on Royals - he may still hate/fear them, even though he's more than happy to work for them (for a reasonable fee, of course). What is the Noble Duty of those born with Royal status, anyway? And it seems that Nobles and Royals enjoy a freedom from some aspects of Duty that other units do not - thus allowing them to turn against their Ruler, as has happened with Transylvito. I'm not saying that Fate isn't part of this, but I am wondering if royalty plays into it.
Ooh, you could be on to something there...

Keep in mind, it's also a mental construct, so it would be Jillian's idea of what Royalty is. Who's the most important Royal figure in her life? Her father. How does she feel about Nobility? It's ridiculous, silly when made to deal with life away from court & on the battlefield.

... but some part of her, (the part Don saw back at the tea ceremony), can't help but think it's RIGHT on some level.

Yes, it is possible. And that would explain why Charlie-of-the-Spiders first kills the jester complex in her mind. He wants her as we see her in the first book, a free agent not bound by even a small, hard to hear part of mental "Noble" duty. If she, strongly or otherwise, felt a Nobel duty to her capital, maybe that would interfere with Charlies plans for her or for FAX.
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