Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Oberon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:27 am

Lilwik wrote:Am I the only one who sees it as a enormous leap to see MANOS and call it proof that there is an invisible supernatural entity pushing the beam? Couldn't the falling beam being critical for Parson's fate be enough to cause the sound effect?
I'm not sure that I see any agreement between your two sentences. Taking them in reverse order: If the falling beam is critical for Parson's fate, then something called fate caused it to fall. The sound effect being a reference to "The hands of Fate" is simple support for that conclusion. I'll leave out the "invisible supernatural entity" part, because that's an assumption about the nature of the manifestation of fate on Erfworld that has nothing at present to back it up.

And this isn't the only data point being used to draw conclusions about the falling beam. The wonky behavior of the bracer is huge support for the involvement of fate in the otherwise normal behavior of things. Parson had an almost 100% chance to cast the scroll, but it was also a 0% chance. That literally screams of the involvement of some outside force changing events. The nearly 100% chance would be his chance as a caster, which would be 100%, less the small chance that something would interfere. Such as a beam falling on his head at the exact moment that he was reading the scroll, or perhaps the small chance he would choke on some smoke and spoil the reading, or the sum of those two plus any other highly improbably events which might have interfered. Taken all together, they were just a small chance. What made the interruption of the casting of the scroll a 100% certainty? Fate is the only logical answer.

Lilwik wrote:It's a small miracle that the beam didn't fall on Parson long before it did.
Not at all. The bracer sequence tells us that the chance the beam would fall on Parson while he was reading the scroll was nothing like a small miracle, it was such a small odds event that his chance to read the scroll was almost 100%. Get it? You can't assign 'small miracle' status to an event that we know for certain, due to the bracer, was just a small odds chance. That is an assumption which is contradicted by canon.


Lilwik wrote:There's contrary evidence to balance it (see Book 0, Episode 24) [...]
I don't see anything in that strip which has anything to do with the relevance of sound effects.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:06 am

Oberon wrote:If the falling beam is critical for Parson's fate, then something called fate caused it to fall.
If you start by assuming that anything critical to fate must be made to happen by Fate, then the conclusion you'll reach is inevitable. The big remaining question is: why do you assume that?

Oberon wrote:I'll leave out the "invisible supernatural entity" part, because that's an assumption about the nature of the manifestation of fate on Erfworld that has nothing at present to back it up.
I don't believe that the invisible supernatural entity exists, but it does have some evidence. Even though I think it's very flimsy evidence, the MANOS sound effect is evidence and if it means anything (and I'm not saying that it does mean something) then it means that some invisible hand of Fate pushed the beam.

Oberon wrote:The wonky behavior of the bracer is huge support for the involvement of fate in the otherwise normal behavior of things.
We don't have nearly enough information to figure out what the wonky bracer means. It's very fertile ground for wild speculation and I've done a lot of wild speculating about it myself, but I think we should all admit that no one really knows what was going on with the bracer.

Oberon wrote:Parson had an almost 100% chance to cast the scroll, but it was also a 0% chance. That literally screams of the involvement of some outside force changing events.
I wouldn't say "screams." Some outside force might be part of the explanation for the bracer, but it's very hard to say exactly what outside force and what exactly it is doing. I'm tempted to think some Carnymancer trickery is involved somehow. Maybe something about the scroll was designed to interfere with Mathamancy. Or maybe there's some subtle feature of Mathamancy that causes it to not work in situations like that. Whatever the truth is, I'm sure we'll discover the answer eventually. Maybe Parson will ask the Thinkamancers.

Oberon wrote:I don't see anything in that strip which has anything to do with the relevance of sound effects.
The sound effect isn't the real issue. Episode 24 deals with the nature of Fate, and the nature of Fate that it presents contradicts what the sound effect suggests, so in a very indirect way it seems to be telling us to not take sound effects seriously.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Oberon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:20 am

Lilwik wrote:If you start by assuming that anything critical to fate must be made to happen by Fate, then the conclusion you'll reach is inevitable. The big remaining question is: why do you assume that?
I do not assume that. The canon of the strip presents this to us, and I will accept it at face value until something else comes along that has a stronger canon support.

Can you articulate some other rationale for the fact that the beam fell on Parson and prevented him from completing the scroll? One which takes into account the behavior of the bracer? Can you provide an alternate explanation for the fact that, while Wanda supposedly can take poison or leap off of a tower, she simply will not because that is not her fate as verified by a predictamancer?

Lilwik wrote:Even though I think it's very flimsy evidence, the MANOS sound effect is evidence and if it means anything (and I'm not saying that it does mean something) then it means that some invisible hand of Fate pushed the beam.
If the sound effect occurred in a vacuum (um, you know what I mean...) I would agree with you that it is flimsy evidence. But it didn't. It was accompanied by the behavior of the bracer indicating that something would prevent Parson from reading the scroll. And backed up by canon information we have about Parson's role on Erfworld. Given all the talk of Parson's fate to accomplish this or that goal while he is on Erfworld, fate is a very logical conclusion. And not necessarily "some invisible hand of fate", here you are simply being too literal. A literal 'invisible hand' is not necessary to make the sound effect relevant.

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:The wonky behavior of the bracer is huge support for the involvement of fate in the otherwise normal behavior of things.
We don't have nearly enough information to figure out what the wonky bracer means. It's very fertile ground for wild speculation and I've done a lot of wild speculating about it myself, but I think we should all admit that no one really knows what was going on with the bracer.
I do not admit that. I've laid out a logical thesis for the behavior of the bracer, one which accounts for everything we know to date, and I see nothing from you but gainsaying that thesis without providing any thesis of your own.

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:Parson had an almost 100% chance to cast the scroll, but it was also a 0% chance. That literally screams of the involvement of some outside force changing events.
I wouldn't say "screams." Some outside force might be part of the explanation for the bracer, but it's very hard to say exactly what outside force and what exactly it is doing. I'm tempted to think some Carnymancer trickery is involved somehow. Maybe something about the scroll was designed to interfere with Mathamancy. Or maybe there's some subtle feature of Mathamancy that causes it to not work in situations like that. Whatever the truth is, I'm sure we'll discover the answer eventually. Maybe Parson will ask the Thinkamancers.
You begin by disagreeing with me, and then you provide your own completely unsupported theory which agrees with me... Doesn't "some carnymancer trickery" qualify as "some outside force?" Wouldn't "something about the scroll [being] designed to interfere with mathamancy", another complete ass-pull with nothing from canon to back it, qualify as "some outside force?"

Let me be sure I understand you. The scroll was designed at least in part by Charlie, who is a master class carnymancer. Charlie wanted Parson either dead or returned to Stupidworld so that Charlie could avoid the fate(s) Parson is on Erfworld to achieve, or at the very least to prevent any more interference with his own operations by Parson. And you're actually claiming that carnymancy interfered with the reading of the scroll which a master class carnymancer backed by the power of the arkendish would not have wanted to be interfered with? And/or that the scroll screwed up Parson's bracer reading when Charlie spent one of his very valuable bracer calculations telling Parson to figure the odds of success in casting the scroll? What possible reason could Charlie have for spending a calculation if he knew that the result would read 0% due to the unread scroll somehow interfering with mathamancy? Pretty shaky ground you're on there, and with absolutely no canon to back you up, and plenty of canon which contradicts you.

Step through it slowly: Parson is not fated to leave Erfworld at this time, because he has not yet accomplished one or more things which he is fated to accomplish. He begins reading a scroll which will remove him from Erfworld, and one which he has an almost 100% chance to successfully cast, superimposed by a mysterious 0% chance. He is struck by a falling beam and does not complete the casting of the spell on the scroll. And you somehow have decided to conclude that what made the bracer read 0% was an inert scroll, just sitting there on Parson's belt. And/or that what prevented the casting was some kind of carnymancer spell, when there are no carnymancers in the hex? That's a pretty ridiculous conclusion.

Lilwik wrote:Episode 24 deals with the nature of Fate, and the nature of Fate that it presents contradicts what the sound effect suggests, so in a very indirect way it seems to be telling us to not take sound effects seriously.
Could you explain how a sound effect which directly references fate is contradicted by applying it to an event which strongly appears to have been caused by fate? Without simply claiming that you disagree with my "strongly appears" statement? Perhaps you could explain how the sound effect is in any way related to your carnymancy theory? Or your mathamancy theory?

You make assumptions, such as claiming without any canon evidence that it was a 'small miracle' that a beam hadn't hit Parson already, when the bracer tells us, proves to us, that you are simply wrong, and that the chances of that were very low indeed. And then you concoct some carnymancy theory, also based on absolutely nothing canon, you just pulled it out of your ass, and then you argue that a perfectly logical conclusion that has multiple points of canon support is wrong.

I may be proven wrong as time passes, but right now I at least have a theory which doesn't just make stuff up, as yours does.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:41 am

Oberon wrote:Can you articulate some other rationale for the fact that the beam fell on Parson and prevented him from completing the scroll?
The building was burning. Parson's soldiers were fighting the fire to try to give Parson some extra actions before he started taking damage from the inferno, but there were only three of them and there's a lot of fire, so Parson didn't get much action value out of their efforts. Fiddling around with his bracer didn't count as full actions so the inferno rules allowed him to get away with it, but when he tried to take some serious action like casting from a scroll, the inferno rules demanded that he take some damage. I don't know; it's just a guess, but since you asked.

Oberon wrote:One which takes into account the behavior of the bracer?
No one knows what the bracer means. It's not clear that it has any connection to the falling beam. We could simply be seeing the bracer struggling with the limitations of its Mathamancy. We know Mathamancy has limits from Book 0, Episode 33.

Oberon wrote:Can you provide an alternate explanation for the fact that, while Wanda supposedly can take poison or leap off of a tower, she simply will not because that is not her fate as verified by a predictamancer?
There's only one way that Wanda can kill herself and still will not do it, and that's by making the free choice with no magical force controlling her or dropping beams on her. If Fate is flying around Erfworld pushing beams and doing similar things to keep the plan on track, then Wanda cannot kill herself. Therefore, Fate doesn't do that. Knowing that, I conclude that Fate must simply be a preview of events that are yet to come. Delphie doesn't see the plan of some supernatural entity; what she sees is an insight into Wanda's personality: that Wanda isn't the kind of person who would kill herself to prove a point about Fate. Nothing needs to force Wanda not to kill herself because she makes that choice freely.

Oberon wrote:It was accompanied by the behavior of the bracer indicating that something would prevent Parson from reading the scroll.
There bracer didn't clearly indicate that. The brace produced two answers.

Oberon wrote:And backed up by canon information we have about Parson's role on Erfworld. Given all the talk of Parson's fate to accomplish this or that goal while he is on Erfworld, fate is a very logical conclusion.
But how can you be sure which is the cause and which is the effect? Does Parson fail to go home because Fate demands he do certain things, or does he have a certain Fate because he fails to go home? When seeing the future is involved, sometimes effects can come before causes.

Oberon wrote:What possible reason could Charlie have for spending a calculation if he knew that the result would read 0% due to the unread scroll somehow interfering with mathamancy?
Charlie's future calculations would lose all value if Parson died or went home, so it costs almost nothing for Charlie to spend one. We should also remember that 0% is not the answer that Parson actually got from the bracer. 0% was what the bracer seemed to be trying to tell Parson, but Carnymancy seems more concerned with outcomes than intentions. People tried to shoot arrows at Sylvia, but in the end the arrow was deflected, and in the end Parson got the answer .980104773, so if Carnymancy were involved then 98% may be the answer that the Carnymancy was going for. Or maybe Charlie only wanted the bracer's answer to be confusing enough to get Parson to want to find the real answer by practical experiment.

Oberon wrote:Pretty shaky ground you're on there, and with absolutely no canon to back you up, and plenty of canon which contradicts you.
I don't know anything about the canon you are talking about, but I agree that I am on shaky ground, and so are you. No one knows what caused the bracer to go wonky and there is no canon to back up any theories about that because it is a completely unprecedented event. We can only guess. Your guess is as good as mine.

Oberon wrote:And you somehow have decided to conclude that what made the bracer read 0% was an inert scroll, just sitting there on Parson's belt.
I never claimed to have concluded that or anything like it. I'm just speculating, mentioning possibilities. I admit with no hesitation that I don't know what caused the bracer to go wonky.

Oberon wrote:And/or that what prevented the casting was some kind of carnymancer spell, when there are no carnymancers in the hex? That's a pretty ridiculous conclusion.
Carnymancy lingers. Just look at Sylvia who had Carnymancy cast upon her many turns ago in a distant hex, and yet strange stuff was still happening around her to hold back death until she finally won that little game.

Oberon wrote:Could you explain how a sound effect which directly references fate is contradicted by applying it to an event which strongly appears to have been caused by fate?
Episode 24 claims that Fate can be defied, but will not be defied, meaning that people have free will to make their own decisions and Fate would not step in to stop Parson from reading the scroll. This contradicts how the sound effect suggests that the falling beam is Fate's active participation. Either Delphie is right or the sound effect is right, and only one of those two is a joke so I know which one I trust more.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby 0beron » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:56 am

On the issue of the bracer's behavior, allow me to put the situation in different language because I don't think either of you has considered it this way yet. Not that it will help much, since Lilwik seems to like holding the contrary opinion just for the sake of it, but here goes.

The bracer shows that the odds of Parson successfully casting the scroll are near 100%, but not quite 100% because a highly unlikely series of events could interrupt his casting. The sudden change to a 0% chance of success is indication that "Yeah, that really unlikely thing that coulda prevented you from casting? Well...it just became guaranteed to happen." That indicates some force is intervening to make the highly unlikely become unavoidable, and the only outside force we are aware of in canon is Fate.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Kornaki » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:06 am

The hand of fate in the falling beam scenario could have been more passive. Perhaps it was simply fated that the beam was going to fall in 40 seconds, and Parson was going to dick around with the bracer long enough for the beam to hit him. The bracer was saying that he has a good chance of casting the scroll, except not right now because you're going to spend too much time trying to figure out if it's safe and you're going to get hit in the head with a log for it. If he had just grabbed the scroll and cast it without invoking the bracer he could have escaped, but he's not that kind of person so he wasn't able to. Similar to how Wanda could jump off a building, but she isn't that kind of person so isn't going to.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Oberon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:49 am

Lilwik wrote:No one knows what the bracer means. It's not clear that it has any connection to the falling beam. We could simply be seeing the bracer struggling with the limitations of its Mathamancy. We know Mathamancy has limits from Book 0, Episode 33.
Now you're just thrashing around, throwing up anything you can possibly conceive as a counter to my theory. Let me ask you: Have we ever seen the bracer behave this way before? I'll answer for you: No, we have not. So trying to tie the bracer's behavior in providing two completely truthful answers: You've got almost a 100% chance to cast the scroll, and also a 0% chance, is not only grasping at straws, but it is the exact opposite of what happened. The bracer is proving that it is not limited by the interference of fate, the user just needs to be able to read fast enough (or do what Parson did and run the calc 10 times in a row) to see both answers.

Lilwik wrote:There's only one way that Wanda can kill herself and still will not do it, and that's by making the free choice with no magical force controlling her or dropping beams on her. If Fate is flying around Erfworld pushing beams and doing similar things to keep the plan on track, then Wanda cannot kill herself. Therefore, Fate doesn't do that.
Your conclusion has absolutely nothing to do with the facts you laid out before arriving at it. Fate does do that. Wanda cannot kill herself. That was spelled out pretty clearly in the strip you referenced earlier in this discussion.

Lilwik wrote:Delphie doesn't see the plan of some supernatural entity; what she sees is an insight into Wanda's personality: that Wanda isn't the kind of person who would kill herself to prove a point about Fate.
More completely unsupported assumptions. Delphie is a predictamancer. She knows how fate works. She hardly knows Wanda, and there is nothing in the canon which suggests that she knows Wanda's personality well enough to judge that she won't kill herself. Delphie says only "You won't", because Delphie knows that Wanda has a fate which must be played out, which is supported in the canon. And Delphie knows that this fate does not involve Wanda killing herself, at least not until her fate is resolved.

Lilwik wrote:There bracer didn't clearly indicate that. The brace produced two answers.
And I've explained exactly why the bracer gave two answers. But you have not. You've made two complete ass-pull guesses which have no canon to support them, and you've decided that I am wrong. Which is fine, that's your privilege. But your argument appears to boil down to "nuh-uh!" You could just as easily claim that shockamancy or dollamancy must have caused the wonky behavior of the bracer, for all the evidence that you have. Any wild-ass guess will do in a pinch, right?

Lilwik wrote:But how can you be sure which is the cause and which is the effect? Does Parson fail to go home because Fate demands he do certain things, or does he have a certain Fate because he fails to go home?
I don't see the question as being relevant. Regardless of the answer, it has nothing to do with carnmancy, and nothing to do with an unread scroll interfering with mathamancy. Both answers do, however, have everything to do with fate.

Lilwik wrote:Charlie's future calculations would lose all value if Parson died or went home, so it costs almost nothing for Charlie to spend one.
Which is a correct statement, and which assumes that Charlie is under the impression that if Parson reads the scroll that he would go away forever. After all, Charlie spent a lot of time on that scroll, which implies that he had a hand in its manufacture. But you've failed to answer the question as to what possible motivation Charlie might have to ask for a calculation and then screw with the responses of the bracer.

Lilwik wrote:Or maybe Charlie only wanted the bracer's answer to be confusing enough to get Parson to want to find the real answer by practical experiment.
That's just a steaming pile of crap. Again, it's down to motivation. If Charlie can screw with the bracer, and if Charlie wants Parson to read the scroll, then Charlie has every motivation to allow the bracer to present the near-100% number and zero motivation to cause it to present the 0% number.

Lilwik wrote:I don't know anything about the canon you are talking about, but I agree that I am on shaky ground, and so are you. No one knows what caused the bracer to go wonky and there is no canon to back up any theories about that because it is a completely unprecedented event. We can only guess. Your guess is as good as mine.
You should know what canon I'm talking about, because I've laid it out for you about three different times. Carefully. Using small words. Walking you through it in baby steps. My guess does have canon to support it. You know, things that we've actually seen in the comic, as opposed to your guesses about scrolls being able to interfere with mathamancy artifacts, or carnymancy somehow being involved when there's absolutely no indication that this could be the case.

Lilwik wrote:I never claimed to have concluded that or anything like it. I'm just speculating, mentioning possibilities. I admit with no hesitation that I don't know what caused the bracer to go wonky.
Anything is a possibility, the universe is infinite. But logic dictates that wild ass guesses be given a vastly lower amount of credence than a guess which is supported in all aspects by what we've actually seen happen. Do you understand this?

Lilwik wrote:Carnymancy lingers. Just look at Sylvia who had Carnymancy cast upon her many turns ago in a distant hex, and yet strange stuff was still happening around her to hold back death until she finally won that little game.
Please note that this use of 'lingering' carnymancy had a good deal of exposition devoted to it. You know, the canon I keep referring to. Where is the exposition suggesting that carnymancy is influencing the bracer or the casting of the scroll?

Lilwik wrote:Episode 24 claims that Fate can be defied, but will not be defied, meaning that people have free will to make their own decisions and Fate would not step in to stop Parson from reading the scroll. This contradicts how the sound effect suggests that the falling beam is Fate's active participation.
You have misunderstood. Delphie was describing "the easy way" vs. "the hard way." A person can fight against their fate, but all that does is to make things more painful for them along the way to the inevitable conclusion.

Lilwik wrote:Either Delphie is right or the sound effect is right, and only one of those two is a joke so I know which one I trust more.
Delphie's description of how fate works does not in any way contradict any conclusion that the falling beam was caused by fate. It supports it.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:28 am

Oberon wrote:Fate does do that. Wanda cannot kill herself.
According to Delphie, Wanda could have. It's in Book 0, Episode 24. "Yes, you could. But you won't."

Oberon wrote:She hardly knows Wanda, and there is nothing in the canon which suggests that she knows Wanda's personality well enough to judge that she won't kill herself.
Whether Delphie knew it or not, she felt confident enough to say it.

Oberon wrote:You've made two complete ass-pull guesses which have no canon to support them, and you've decided that I am wrong.
No, I said your guess is as good as mine, and I still think that. I don't know that you're wrong, but I do disagree with your claims of having made the canon support clear.

Oberon wrote:But you've failed to answer the question as to what possible motivation Charlie might have to ask for a calculation and then screw with the responses of the bracer.
Maybe if the bracer gave a straight answer Parson wouldn't have tried to cast from the scroll. The bracer made it look like something was trying to trick Parson and he didn't want to fall for it. If the bracer had simply told him that he could cast the scroll, then Parson might have calmly evaluated whether he should and chosen not to do it.

Oberon wrote:If Charlie can screw with the bracer, and if Charlie wants Parson to read the scroll, then Charlie has every motivation to allow the bracer to present the near-100% number and zero motivation to cause it to present the 0% number.
And what if Charlie is incapable of getting the bracer to simply present the 98% number and the brief flash of 98% was all he could manage?

Oberon wrote:But logic dictates that wild ass guesses be given a vastly lower amount of credence than a guess which is supported in all aspects by what we've actually seen happen.
I don't think it has anything to do with logic, but I agree with your conclusion. Unfortunately in this case I don't see how we have any choice.

Oberon wrote:Where is the exposition suggesting that carnymancy is influencing the bracer or the casting of the scroll?
I don't think there is any, but I also haven't seen any exposition about anything else influencing the bracer or the casting of the scroll, so we're left to guess.

Oberon wrote:You have misunderstood. Delphie was describing "the easy way" vs. "the hard way." A person can fight against their fate, but all that does is to make things more painful for them along the way to the inevitable conclusion.
But Delphie said that Wanda could kill herself. That doesn't sound like the hard way, since Wanda would be dead and her Fate couldn't be fulfilled. In all examples we've seen, the hard way is the battles that people fight in attempts to avoid their Fate, and those battles are always painful because they are inevitably lost. Wanda dying would be an entirely different sort of thing, because then Wanda would actually win against Fate.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Oberon » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:44 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:Fate does do that. Wanda cannot kill herself.
According to Delphie, Wanda could have. It's in Book 0, Episode 24. "Yes, you could. But you won't."
I believe you are reading too much into the "you can." Parson can cast the scroll. But he won't. Why? Because fate will prevent that from happening. How do we know this? Because he decided to cast it, but he could not actually do it. The same applies to Wanda killing herself. She "can", but it's just not going to happen. You can win a $200 million dollar lottery. You can be an astronaut. You can bed a dozen super models. You are completely free to decide that these are all things you are going to do. You won't actually do any of those things, however, because that is not your fate.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby gobe » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Oberon I was with you until you tried to say that Fate is just like stuff from real life. Is that New Age? What are you smoking?

The whole point is that Fate is VERY different from real life. It's an Erfworld thing (call it a mechanic or something else). It's meant as a major difference between a game world and the real world. Your real life example makes no sense to me and I completely disagree with it.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:40 pm

Oberon wrote:I believe you are reading too much into the "you can."
There's really no reading between the lines going on here. If something can happen, then it can happen. If Fate would stop it, then it can't happen. This is a simple act that Wanda could have chosen to do, nothing like winning the lottery. I don't see why we would want to twist Delphie's words into meaning something other than what she said, especially not "Wanda couldn't have killed herself," which is the exact opposite of what Delphie said.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby BakaGrappler » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:10 pm

OH DEAR GOD!

I just realized why Overlady Judy was talking about the "Rainbow" in her appearances. She use to believe in the "Rainbow." She's tired of this "Rainbow lark." Something about the way it was said was always cryptic, which is why it always nagged at the back of my mind. And now I understand, Judy wasn't talking about Over the Rainbow, as made famous by the Wizard of Oz. She was talking about the Great Minds that Think Alike that dwell in their temple. The one with Rainbow colored pillars. And their "lark" is them telling her about prophesies she's going to fulfill. As it turned out, it would be the NEXT summoned perfect warlord that would take care of them. Or perhaps the one after Parson, but the GMtTA keep using the "current" perfect warlord for their own selfish ends.

It also shows why the Judge is so adamant on why Parson could become a greater threat than Charlie. Because the GMtTA have already summoned one perfect warlord to destroy someone using the Arkendish, and Charlie replaced her.


That means that eventually, the GMtTA are also going to be threats to Parson, the instant it seems Charlie is dished for good, the Great Minds, or the GMs, will turn on him. The GMtTA are another problem with Erfworld that wil need to be "sorted out."
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:40 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:She was talking about the Great Minds that Think Alike that dwell in their temple. The one with Rainbow colored pillars.
They do seem to be the only people with a solid connection to a rainbow. Charlie appeared as a rainbow one time, but that doesn't seem to be a regular thing with him. But I don't see how the Great Minds fit with what Judy actually said:

Book 0, Episode 55: Judy: "No! I wanted to believe, and I tried my disbandedest to believe, in the rainbow I tried to get over, and I couldn't!... So what? Lots of people can't!"

If she means the Great Minds when she says "the rainbow" then why was she trying to get over it? And it's not just Judy, but lots of people.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lipkin » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:07 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Oberon wrote:I believe you are reading too much into the "you can."
There's really no reading between the lines going on here. If something can happen, then it can happen. If Fate would stop it, then it can't happen. This is a simple act that Wanda could have chosen to do, nothing like winning the lottery. I don't see why we would want to twist Delphie's words into meaning something other than what she said, especially not "Wanda couldn't have killed herself," which is the exact opposite of what Delphie said.

There is nothing within the rules preventing Wanda from killing herself. She can kill herself.

But fate is going to undermine everything she does to avoid her fate until she finds a clever enough way to cheat, just like Parson was going to undermine everything his players did. Fate doesn't play by the rules. It's not a mechanic of Erf. It's story. It's the role playing element.

Suppose there is a GM of Erf. The GM created the game, and is taking an active role in running it. When an action takes place, there are a number of bonuses and penalties that need to be figured. The GM decides how high a player needs to roll to succeed, and if the player's action goes against the GM's plan, the GM can decide that the roll isn't good enough anyway even if the roll succeeds. The GM is dead set on making their plan work. The players are free to do what they want. The GM doesn't control their characters. But if they step out of line, they meet resistance that they may or may not notice.

A Mathmancer can see what needs to be rolled, see the dice that are being used, and figure the odds.

A Luckamancer can swap out dice, making someone roll better or worse. But if you need to roll very high, Luckamancy may not be enough, and without a mathamancer, you don't know how high you need to roll.

A Predictamancer can peak at the GM's game notes. They see what the GM wants to happen, but because the GM doesn't know what his players are going to do, he doesn't know the details, and can't put them in his notes. As the events in the notes come closer, the plan becomes more detailed, because how the actions of the players are going to affect the plan becomes more clear.

A Carnymancer can argue with and fast talk the GM. They don't know the plan, but they can look at whats happening and argue for something different to happen. They can get the GM to postpone the plan. But this only goes so far. The GM ultimately still has all the power, and at any time the GM can change his mind and return to the original plan.


Sylvia died in a fire, but the theoretical player in control of Jojo had an idea for her, and argued with the GM to let her live. The GM agreed, and let Jojo use Carnymancy to bend the rules and allow her to live. Eventually Sylvia pushes the GM too hard, and he goes back on his choice to let her live, and says "no, you die in a fire after all."

If Parson were a character in a game, and his player wanted to cast from the scroll, if it didn't go against the GM's plan, the GM would just let him cast. The chances of him casting successfully are so high, it's not even worth a roll to see if he COULD do it, just to see how effective he was. But it is against the GM's plan, so he has Parson roll. Whatever the outcome, the GM is going to say that Parson failed.

The GM has his screen up, and you don't get to see what he rolls. When Parson tries to cast, the GM rolls behind his screen, and whatever the outcome of the roll, the GM makes a beam fall on Parson's head. As far as the players know, it's just chance. But it's the GM directing the story as he wants it. And that's fate. Trying to go against fate is going to agitate the GM, and as he gets more and more frustrated, things are going to get harder and harder as he tries to force the players back onto his railroad. Eventually he might get rid of the characters in some spiteful or inelegant way, and start the campaign over with new players. The only way to change fate is to do something so awesome that the GM is impressed enough to change his plans. Casting a scroll to remove your character from the game is not that. That receives a flat "Not gonna happen" from the GM, and a beam to the back of the head.


*Edit: Sorry about the long post. I let myself get carried away. I'm not looking forward to long reply were Lilwik dissects my post and tells me how I'm wrong that I know is coming.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:50 pm

Lipkin wrote:She can kill herself. But fate is going to undermine everything she does to avoid her fate until she finds a clever enough way to cheat, just like Parson was going to undermine everything his players did.
But Wanda's plan was "I could...buy some poison and drink it! What would Fate do, then? Huh? I could jump off this tower right now!" This is the plan that Delphie confirmed would work. According to Delphie, doing that would be tricky or elegant enough to prevent Fate from stepping in to stop Wanda, but it doesn't seem tricky or elegant at all to me. Where's the cleverness?

Lipkin wrote:The only way to change fate is to do something so awesome that the GM is impressed enough to change his plans. Casting a scroll to remove your character from the game is not that. That receives a flat "Not gonna happen" from the GM, and a beam to the back of the head.
So then why wouldn't the GM go "Not gonna happen" for Wanda's plan to kill herself? It seems very not awesome, and yet Delphie seemed to know that it would work. I can't figure out how this fits with your interpretation of Fate as a GM.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby ftl » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:09 pm

Fate would stop Wanda by making Wanda not want to do it. Or by distracting her. Or something else.

It's even right there when Delphie says it. "You could. But you won't."

It would be the player saying "I jump off the cliff!" and the GM narrating "your character considers jumping off the cliff, but decides against it".

I think it's pretty similar to the bracer giving answers to Parson asking whether he can cast the spell to escape the fire. He can! But he won't.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:24 pm

ftl wrote:Fate would stop Wanda by making Wanda not want to do it. Or by distracting her. Or something else.
If Fate would stop her, then Delphie was wrong to say that Wanda could do it. Wanda wasn't just asking whether she could do it in general; she was specifically asking what Fate would do to stop her, and Delphie's answer was that Wanda could do it.

ftl wrote:It's even right there when Delphie says it. "You could. But you won't."
There's a perfectly straight-forward interpretation for those words that doesn't require any twisting. Wanda could kill herself: no physical force would block her way, not beam would fall on her, no mind control would overwhelm her. But, Delphie's magic has revealed to her that suicide isn't really something Wanda has in her to do. Isn't it so much easier to just take words at face value instead of trying to contort their meaning to fit a Fate that controls people's lives?

ftl wrote:It would be the player saying "I jump off the cliff!" and the GM narrating "your character considers jumping off the cliff, but decides against it".
That would be such an annoying GM. Since when is the GM qualified to tell the players what their characters would think? I really hope that Erfworld doesn't have a GM like that. At least Delphie seems to have confirmed that it doesn't.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby 0beron » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:48 pm

Lilwik, please go study the English language a bit. "Can" means that Wanda would be mechanically capable of killing herself. That can still be true even if Fate deters her from doing it. Whether or not she actually does it has no bearing on her technical ability to do so. It's like back in grade school when you ask your teacher "Can I go to the bathroom?" and they cheekily retort "I don't know, can you?", at which point you correct yourself and say "MAY I go to the bathroom?" That is ALL that is meant by the word "can", and to try to insist otherwise simply demonstrates a horrible misunderstanding of English.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:44 pm

Lilwik wrote:But, Delphie's magic has revealed to her that suicide isn't really something Wanda has in her to do.

That option can still be explained by Enforced Fate. One possible explanation is yes, if there are no convenient beams to knock down on her head, Fate wouldn't be able to stop her from choosing to commit suicide. So it prevents that preemptively by designing Wanda to not be the sort of unit to commit suicide in the first place. Thus, she technically could, but won't. And Enforced Fate is still involved.
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Re: Epilogue 13 – Parson and the Temple

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:02 am

0beron wrote:"Can" means that Wanda would be mechanically capable of killing herself.
Agreed. So then we all agree that Fate wouldn't mechanically stop Wanda from doing it. And by extrapolation, Fate probably didn't mechanically stop Parson from reading the scroll, such as by dropping a beam on him. The beam just happened to fall, not because Fate pushed it.

ManaCaster wrote:So it prevents that preemptively by designing Wanda to not be the sort of unit to commit suicide in the first place. Thus, she technically could, but won't. And Enforced Fate is still involved.
Agreed. That is a perfectly possible guess at how Fate might work. I don't see any reason why we should believe that, but otherwise it's a fine idea.
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