Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby nargbop » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:03 pm

Charlie wanted the Garden... but has heroine buds anyway... that means there are other plants, like a memory-erasing plant, that could be used on Jillian.

Of course, that bud could be Foolamancy. And maybe there's a spell that will cause actual memory loss , not just sealed communications.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:32 pm

Lipkin wrote:Contracts are Signamancy. Nailed it.
Okay, I now agree without a doubt that making contracts is Signamancy, and almost certainly the signing of contracts is Natural Signamancy. I don't consider the fact that there was a link-up with Charlie to be at all important. In principle it could mean that Carnymancy or Thinkamancy are also involved in making contracts, but we also have to consider the way that people talk about it. "Brother Labeler, he's serious about his croft." Since Marie is giving Labeler's craft credit for the contract, we really have no choice but to agree with her.

Even so, I don't believe this proves that Signamancy follows the reality-warping model where changing appearances changes the truth of things. The Signamancy used to write the contract isn't necessarily the same kind of magic that enforces the contract. We now have only that Signamancers are the discipline that's best at understanding and writing contracts, which makes a lot of sense. The enforcement of contracts could easily be some natural magic that has nothing to do with the writing of a contract.

Jack says that it hurts to think about the events of the morning, so that pretty much guarantees that enforcing a contract is Natural Thinkamancy. I don't think there's any other kind of magic that reaches into a person's head and controls their thoughts. On the other hand, Jack says that there is a physical cost to disobeying the contract, and that doesn't sound like Thinkamancy. Perhaps contract enforcement is a combination of multiple kinds of natural magic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:52 pm

I have my own subject I would like to discuss in parallel to the Signamancy one.

Alot of people speculated about caster rulers. They asked why you would ever have a non-caster ruler if you could afford to, since the ruler can escape into the magic kingdom while you keep fighting to reclaim a capital site. But then Marie said this:
“Each discipline comes with its buhden. Special knowledge you cannot share. It shapes you.” She looked down at the paving stones of the courtyard. “Disconnects you.”
Bolding added by me for special emphasize.
So, do you suppose that's the reason sides often don't try to use a caster ruler? They become detached from the day to day reality of peoples lives to the point that they become dysfunctional individuals who can't manage a side well anymore? Sort of like this song?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby ftl » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:59 pm

Well, I'd guess a bigger part of it is that you don't pick your ruler. Like, if you're a caster and you're a ruler, great! Good for you! But if you're not a caster, and you're a ruler, what are you going to do, abdicate (or disband yourself? can rulers even abdicate?) so a caster can take over for a minute tactical advantage?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lilwik » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:19 pm

ftl wrote:Well, I'd guess a bigger part of it is that you don't pick your ruler.
Rulers are chosen by other rules, at least in many cases. We've just seen Jillian trying to split off a new side, meaning that the ruler of that side would be chosen by Banhammer. Banhammer is also free to choose anyone to be his heir, except for the fact that royalty demands that Jillian should be his heir. So in principle he could choose one of his many casters. I expect that the only way to get a ruler that's not someone's deliberate choice would be to have a ruler pop in the wild as the ruler of a barbarian side.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Shai_hulud » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:31 pm

Yeah, they can pick who spins off and who is heir. So my point still stands. Why ever pick a non-caster if you don't have the Royalist religion? Seems like Marie was implying they might go a bit funny in the head with higher skill? It just seemed interesting with all the speculation on that subject.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:48 pm

Maybe Parson can speak to Isaac about it and hire some Signamancer to break or find a loophole around Wanda's contract. It's not like Gobwin Knob needs to worry about Charlie doing the same, since the contract doesn't benefit them and Faq is an enemy side right now anyways.

Shai_hulud wrote:Yeah, they can pick who spins off and who is heir. So my point still stands. Why ever pick a non-caster if you don't have the Royalist religion? Seems like Marie was implying they might go a bit funny in the head with higher skill? It just seemed interesting with all the speculation on that subject.

Casters are rarer to pop than Warlords, and are thus less likely to be the founder of a side. It does make sense to pick a caster as heir for a non-royal side, but maybe the side as a whole tends to go down with the ruler. It's not like rulers enter battle very often if they can avoid it, they are most likely to croak in a capital fight.

As to Royals, caster rarity applies again. Empress Saltina is thus far the only named caster with a Royal title. A Royal Ruler would have increased incentive to pick one of his children to be heir, and he is unlikely to have any casters among them.

As to the matter of splitting off the side, casters are precious. That means one less caster for the side they split off from, and it probably decreases the new side's chances of popping casters as well. I'm sure there are loopholes around this, but it's not like Erfworlders are creative enough to find them.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby name lips » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:52 pm

I'm still guessing that the Arkendish can act as a surrogate Thinkamancer, so this is a Signamancy-Thinkamancy-Carnymancy linkup.

So maybe Signamancy IS the discipline for legal contracts and agreements, but Carnymancy might allow rules to be enforced that would otherwise be unenforceable. Or maybe it allows Charlie to exploit loopholes that would be automatically closed off to others.

The addition of Carnymancy makes the "End Turn" spell make a lot more sense. It needed a turnamancer, but involved outright cheating. You should not be able to end other sides' turns. That's against the rules. Charlie can do it anyway.

Basically Charlie with the Dish seems to be able to bend/tweak/reinterpret/break a lot of the rules everybody else needs to abide by. Which is why he's managed to acquire a position of such power and influence -- he's literally not playing the game on the same difficulty setting.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:28 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Contracts are Signamancy. Nailed it.
Okay, I now agree without a doubt that making contracts is Signamancy, and almost certainly the signing of contracts is Natural Signamancy. I don't consider the fact that there was a link-up with Charlie to be at all important. In principle it could mean that Carnymancy or Thinkamancy are also involved in making contracts, but we also have to consider the way that people talk about it. "Brother Labeler, he's serious about his croft." Since Marie is giving Labeler's craft credit for the contract, we really have no choice but to agree with her.

Even so, I don't believe this proves that Signamancy follows the reality-warping model where changing appearances changes the truth of things. The Signamancy used to write the contract isn't necessarily the same kind of magic that enforces the contract. We now have only that Signamancers are the discipline that's best at understanding and writing contracts, which makes a lot of sense. The enforcement of contracts could easily be some natural magic that has nothing to do with the writing of a contract.

Jack says that it hurts to think about the events of the morning, so that pretty much guarantees that enforcing a contract is Natural Thinkamancy. I don't think there's any other kind of magic that reaches into a person's head and controls their thoughts. On the other hand, Jack says that there is a physical cost to disobeying the contract, and that doesn't sound like Thinkamancy. Perhaps contract enforcement is a combination of multiple kinds of natural magic.

Jack says the spell is very powerful to cause him harm for even vaguely referencing the events he's barred from speaking of. Maria attributes the quality of the spell to Labeler. What part of this doesn't seem like Signamancy to you?

The Dish gives Charlie what is essentially supreme Thinkomancy powers, including the creation of links. I agree that the Kingworld spell probably involved Carnymancy, I don't agree that Carnymancy is always going to be involved in a link with Charlie, and I don't see Carnymancy as needed to create the NDA. It just seems like a more powerful Signamancy spell.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:43 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:Yeah, they can pick who spins off and who is heir. So my point still stands. Why ever pick a non-caster if you don't have the Royalist religion?

Well that really depends on the casters discipline. Some casters have a use out in the field while others do not; and your ruler is the last unit you want in the field.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby 0beron » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:46 pm

Lipkin wrote:What part of this doesn't seem like Signamancy to you?
The enforcement. When Jack tries to talk about it, the pressure against him is mental in nature. So as someone pointed out earlier, it's entirely plausible that the formation of contracts is Signamancy, but their enforcement is Thinkamancy. This explanation can still allow for Marie to note the power of Labeler's work, because if the contract itself is very strongly formed and tied well to the participants, then the enforcement will kick in more effectively.

If the enforcement is Thinkamancy as suggested, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be Charlie's doing. Active Signamancy could make the contract, and Natural Thinkamancy enforces it just like all contracts.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:11 am

Step 1.) Conquer FAQ.
Step 2.) Parson Spins off new side, re-found FAQ

Result: Charlie is bound by a powerful magical contract to give Parson money to rebuild this new FAQ, never to attack it, or disclose its location, or aid any side in disturbing it. What does Parson owe Charlie? Jackshit. :) How possible would you guys say this is?

Also she says she doesn't feel compelled to sign. So what stats are low? Obedience obviously. Duty is still quite high in her argument. She want to do what she feels will really protect FAQ. Where would you guys say her loyalty is at? Scale is 1 - 11.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby ManaCaster » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:24 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Step 1.) Conquer FAQ.
Step 2.) Parson Spins off new side, re-found FAQ

Result: Charlie is bound by a powerful magical contract to give Parson money to rebuild this new FAQ, never to attack it, or disclose its location, or aid any side in disturbing it. What does Parson owe Charlie? Jackshit. :) How possible would you guys say this is?

Charlie would not be obligated to rebuild the new Faq, else Jillian would have asked for Charlescomm's help in rebuilding Faq from the beginning. That part of the deal was probably a one time thing. As to abusing the contract to make Charlie unable to attack them, I'm sure Charlie could wrangle out a loophole.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Lipkin » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:49 am

0beron wrote:
Lipkin wrote:What part of this doesn't seem like Signamancy to you?
The enforcement. When Jack tries to talk about it, the pressure against him is mental in nature. So as someone pointed out earlier, it's entirely plausible that the formation of contracts is Signamancy, but their enforcement is Thinkamancy. This explanation can still allow for Marie to note the power of Labeler's work, because if the contract itself is very strongly formed and tied well to the participants, then the enforcement will kick in more effectively.

If the enforcement is Thinkamancy as suggested, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be Charlie's doing. Active Signamancy could make the contract, and Natural Thinkamancy enforces it just like all contracts.

He describes it as physical, not mental. Other things pertain to the mind and are not Thinkomancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby MonteCristo » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:08 am

Mikalyaran wrote:Step 1.) Conquer FAQ.
Step 2.) Parson Spins off new side, re-found FAQ

Result: Charlie is bound by a powerful magical contract to give Parson money to rebuild this new FAQ, never to attack it, or disclose its location, or aid any side in disturbing it. What does Parson owe Charlie? Jackshit. :) How possible would you guys say this is?

Actually it makes me curious if Charlie's protection clause applies to the new Faq, or if Jillian's Faq is considered a different side
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Tonot » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:25 am

Ohhh, low blow. I can just imagine myself in her place, if it was a bottle of Mounty Gay 1703 they were suggesting I had an "Affinity" for.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby the_tick_rules » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:36 am

Charlie now dealing drugs? How disappointing.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:47 am

Well, he is the methadone man.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby Oliolli » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:28 am

What if Charlie's offer to Jillian isn't going to be the flower itself (as they both probably understand they are limited) but a way to get rid of the "affinity"? Jillian would understand it would help her greatly in the long run.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 075

Postby ftl » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:39 am

That would be a lot less sleazy and would actually be a good offer!
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