Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby ThisIsNotDan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:30 am

I didn't get the Airplane! reference right away--that is awesome. I really appreciated how the video zoomed in on the different casters as they were mentioned in the script--takes a lot of guesswork out of figuring out who's who. I like how the video narration changes to reflect whose inner thoughts are being expressed, as well. The first one sounded kind of stuffy, but that's because Artemis is kind of stuffy. Ace's sounded pretty "far out," and now Roger's definitely has a hint of snobbery. I like it.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:33 am

I don't believe an Empire technically requires multiple separate factions/states unified under someone, I think it's really more of a fanciful term. Perhaps in an Erfworld context it would be appropriate for a Ruler who had conquered multiple capital sites, yet kept those unit types alive rather than razing the cities. Then you would be Ruler of many "different" sides, without actually needing other Rulers to pledge to you.
That, or it could be a purely aesthetic choice and is no different from a Queen.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Zippy the Squirrel » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:16 am

I've been playing a lot of Crusader Kings lately, so the mechanics of Empires from that game were on my mind when I saw the Empress Thinkamancer. I think it's just a name for her, but it did give me thought on how there can be different types of Sides. I think an Empire could be done, if it's set up properly using Royal relatives. It may even help to solve the whole diminishing returns problem each Side faces. Not to mention the presumably increased pop rate of casters and nobles. You could factor in Parson's musings on how to build a no-combat side into it, maybe have, like.. a core of Sides built for making money, funding border Sides' armies, things like that.

Yeah, it probably wouldn't work or be too redundant/convoluted to be practical, but I likes ta dream.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Mad Raven » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:19 am

Hmm. They didn't poll Maggie. Granted her [Necessary] is probably a given, but she's there and one of them. Seems a bit rude.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:24 am

I think it'd certainly be a good exploit, but would need to be done very carefully, and still may not last forever. We know heirs are definitely NOT inherently positive towards their parents, so you'd probably want a Sign-Date-Think link to deeply assess whether an offspring was really suited to run another side while remaining loyal, and to boost their Loyalty as well. If you were lucky enough to start off with those 3 casters you're in a good spot for the expansion phase....
but eventually those heirs you picked would have heirs of their own, the family would get diluted, and eventually a bad apple would crop up without the "patriarch" side's casters noticing, and the whole empire would rot from within.

Mad Raven wrote:Hmm. They didn't poll Maggie. Granted her [Necessary] is probably a given, but she's there and one of them. Seems a bit rude.
This ties into my earlier point that this group of Great Minds seems to be some kind of leadership. Just because you are part of the Thinkamancer alliance doesn't mean you get a say in their decisions.....in fact I just thought of it another way. I've been arguing that Thinkamancers on capital sides wouldn't be able to help the Great Minds because of their loyalty, but it could be the other way around. The Great Minds might only allow Barbarians to be the in leadership council to avoid any of them pulling the group in a direction that favors a Side.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:25 am

Mad Raven wrote:Hmm. They didn't poll Maggie. Granted her [Necessary] is probably a given, but she's there and one of them. Seems a bit rude.
It's been a while, so I don't recall exactly, but Maggie may be out of Juice or still blocked by Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby ElKingo » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:35 am

[Mistake]

But Ace Hardware could fix that.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Goshen » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:42 am

Speculations on building an empire very interesting. I presume it's based on the idea that a side can only get so big, before upkeep costs make it impossible for that site to maintain an army of any size. That would be clever bit of game design on the Titans part to ensure perpetual war, or perhaps a too-quick end with one side conquering all. Wanda's decrypted upkeep-free troops throws a wrench into that mechanism. But I think all of this has been discussed at length, before.

In real life, before the industrial age, empires tended to top out in size, also. That is usually because the conquering nation was only able to extend its cultural "operating system" over a geographic area and/or population of a certain size. The really big ones, that managed to stick around a while, tended to be fairly flexible about how their local portions ran their affairs. At the same time they were successful in imposing their culture on the conquered peoples. This was true of the Romans, the Mongolians, the first Chinese empire, the British Empire, Spanish Empire, and a few more.

In erfworld, by contrast, it's all pretty much based on game mechanics.

Just thinking out loud....
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:54 am

The empress had a write up in one of the books... she is in fact a disposed ruler. Restarting her side is frowned upon by the MK. IIRC.

Also for empire building, thinkamancy would be uniquely suited to the task. My idea would be to spin off puppet rulers, and layer the leadership and commanders with suggestion spells. If any of them betray the ruling side the suggestion spells break and take out the leadership. Then the sides can be mopped up. You can also steal any casters that pop. Also since casters may pop based on need it might be wise to murder any side that fails to produce casters after X number of turns.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Lipkin » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:20 pm

Lamech wrote:The empress had a write up in one of the books... she is in fact a disposed ruler. Restarting her side is frowned upon by the MK. IIRC.

Also for empire building, thinkamancy would be uniquely suited to the task. My idea would be to spin off puppet rulers, and layer the leadership and commanders with suggestion spells. If any of them betray the ruling side the suggestion spells break and take out the leadership. Then the sides can be mopped up. You can also steal any casters that pop. Also since casters may pop based on need it might be wise to murder any side that fails to produce casters after X number of turns.

I think you probably mean deposed?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby drachefly » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:22 pm

You don't need to do anything complicated like suggestions. Just take the rulers hostage.

Lipkin wrote:I think you probably mean deposed?


No, she released her system resources and is ready to be garbage collected.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby atalex » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:30 pm

Mad Raven wrote:Hmm. They didn't poll Maggie. Granted her [Necessary] is probably a given, but she's there and one of them. Seems a bit rude.


My impression is that Maggie, while a Thinkamancer, is not a member of the GMTTA, or at least not a part of its leadership. The fact that she was kept out of the loop on Isaac's plans for intercepting Parson suggests that she's more of an agent. Indeed, the fact that she's out in the field, subject to Loyalty to an outside agency (Stanley) and the possibility of capture by enemy forces, makes it even more unlikely that her views carry particular weight within the cabal.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby BCCroaker » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:52 pm

Azukar wrote: And Isaac "Cipher"...? Hmm.

Well it could be to do with the (Isaac) Newton Cipher (or code).
http://newtonscode.wordpress.com/the-ba ... tons-code/
That was all to with end times and the Illuminati tosh the Thinkamancers seem to be into.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby atalex » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Chevalier wrote:And I realized in the shower that Roger Victor Clarence is also an Airplane! reference:

"Roger, Roger."
"Vector, Victor?"
"Clearance, Clarence."

I'm sure someone will post a link to a clip.


Thank you! I've been trying to figure out that reference all morning. I guess I just couldn't conceive of anything remotely funny about Clarence Thomas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVq4_HhBK8Y
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby Knott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:13 pm

The Book 2, issue 2 bonus pages contains the profiles of the GMtA members featured in this epilogue.
Go buy it. It provides info on what side they used to belong to, their approximate age (in turns), their level and mastery in their discipline (and other disciplines if applicable), and a background story. Those pages might not be critical to the overall story, but it should put some of the speculations to rest.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby No one in particular » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:46 pm

Knott wrote:The Book 2, issue 2 bonus pages contains the profiles of the GMtA members featured in this epilogue.
Go buy it. It provides info on what side they used to belong to, their approximate age (in turns), their level and mastery in their discipline (and other disciplines if applicable), and a background story. Those pages might not be critical to the overall story, but it should put some of the speculations to rest.

What's the verdict on putting info from the bonus pages on the wiki?

And if it's okay, would someone with the books chip in on updating the wiki?

[edit] To clarify, I'm not asking for full page scans, detailed summaries or transcriptions of the bonus pages, just, you know. Naming names. Adding facts. None of the meat, just the bones, y'know?
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:49 pm

My personal opinion is that it should be shared if it becomes plot relevant, because I don't think it's fair Rob hide that stuff (case and point, the fact that Issac can perform Lookamancy, the fact that this wasn't common knowledge led to confusion) but otherwise it's an extra people paid for, so it's also not fair to Rob for it to be shared unless needed.
However that's simply my opinion, I'm not aware if Rob has made a formal statement on it.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby balder » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:50 pm

No one in particular wrote:What's the verdict on putting info from the bonus pages on the wiki?

And if it's okay, would someone with the books chip in on updating the wiki?

[edit] To clarify, I'm not asking for full page scans, detailed summaries or transcriptions of the bonus pages, just, you know. Naming names. Adding facts. None of the meat, just the bones, y'know?


At this point, I'll say transcription is okay. Please don't upload the images.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby ShieldOfAthena » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:59 pm

wih wrote:I have a feeling that imbuing someone with Duty might be Weirdomancy.
Doing your "doody" is clearly natural Dirtamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Epilogue 04 – Thinkamancers' Poll

Postby gobe » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:46 pm

About the idea on Empires, I think it's genius!

There seems to be a missing link though: how to ensure loyalty without, you know, a Loyalty stat (or Duty)? I think the answer is Contracts!

Contracts can be abused to no end as a game mechanic (Hi Charlie!) and I believe they can be binding either to a side or an individual. If you bind a whole side to your Empire, perhaps requiring some clever wording to avoid all sorts of pitfalls later, then you're in business. And I really like using your own nobles or princes to start offshoots, so in that case, you give them only one city first (a capital site), they immediately have to agree to the extremely binding contract of forever servitude or face the whole empire's wrath, and then you can appropriately give it resources to use once it is contractually secured. This has a huge advantage over the magical link suggestion: 1) you don't have to worry about the casters you entirely rely on from dying or going rogue or whatever; 2) when the first ruler dies, you'd have to quickly go back and cast the spell on the new ruler who might be hostile now... good luck with that; 3) nothing stops you from doing both for extra safety.
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