Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Lamech » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:37 pm

drachefly wrote:It is the beginnings of science. We haven't seen any hints that he's done anything quantitative with those tools. Maybe given a lot longer he could get there. He hasn't got that much time, for now.

Quantifying helps you do science but its not needed. The cycle of science is sort of "observe->make prediction (a.k.a. hypothesis)->test prediction->analyze results loop". One of the most important steps is the prediction and testing and doing it in that order. No making the hypothesis on the basis of the test. A lot of the stuff in the playground seems to be looking at stuff and thinking really hard. Not really science. Although from what we have heard of the rest of the MK its still better than them. Isaac seems to have some of the basics of science down, with his theory and the prove/disprove.

You don't need quantitative tools, but those are another big help. You can do qualitative analysis.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:50 pm

Several people have been arguing that lack of precise numbers, like the fact that dice are involved, or that the main instrument of observation is brain tissue, proves that science isn't just not done yet, but is actually impossible in the setting. Thus the reason number collection magics are being brought up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:27 am

Lamech wrote:
drachefly wrote:It is the beginnings of science. We haven't seen any hints that he's done anything quantitative with those tools. Maybe given a lot longer he could get there. He hasn't got that much time, for now.

Quantifying helps you do science but its not needed. The cycle of science is sort of "observe->make prediction (a.k.a. hypothesis)->test prediction->analyze results loop"...


You can't get past the extreme basics without making some sort of statement that can be converted into something quantitative. Even Sociology leads to quantitative metrics, and hypotheses that can be tested in terms of them, in short order after setting up definitions.

Even basic stuff like Heliocentrism? Quantitative, based on thousands of individual measurements. Noticing that different weights fall at the same speed? Quantitatively backed, even if you don't need numbers to describe the result. Taxonomy of animals and plants? Okay, you can make some progress there before you hit a quantitative roadblock.

The tools Isaac has made are suited to observation, but they don't help on measuring and recording. So unless reality is very conveniently arranged so there's a lot of taxonomy to do, and it's the sort not requiring measurements, he's not going to get very far.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby Kreistor » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:50 pm

The Observation and Experimentation stages are often identical, due to the need to gather data in both. You can't observe some phenomena without the equipment to sense it, and when you observe the experiments, you need that same equipment to sense the phenomena and detect changes due to alterations to experiment inputs. Isaac needs his equipment for the gathering of data not just for Observation, but for Experimentation, since his base senses can't detect the phenomena.

But not all scientific discovery follows the classic Scientific Method. A fine example is Quantum teleportation. This theory developed not from Observation, but by Einstein noticing a loophole in Quantum Mechanics Theory. He didn't observe nature to come up with the theory, but instead tried to disprove Quantum Mechanics by suggesting the idea of Quantum Teleportation was absurd, therefore the math that permitted it had to be wrong. Quantum Mechanics believers, on the other hand, looked forward to seeing if it worked, instead of abandoning that branch of Physics. Decades later, the equipment to observe the phenomenon could be built, and the theory was proven true, with no Observation step ever involved.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 071

Postby drachefly » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:22 am

Yeah, the elementary school view of science is overly rigid.
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