Book 2 – Page 114

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Zeku » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:51 pm

"It is safe to assume [the MK] came into existence after the Titans created Erfworld". THAT is the idea that I called ridiculous


Of course it's plausible/likely the MK is a physical location within Erfworld, I wasn't debating that


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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Keighvin1 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:43 pm

Not to get too into this, but the MK could have been a Titanic creation at the same time as the rest of Erfworld, which would put it on Erfworld while not being made afterwards. Though I personally think it could be an pocket dimension.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Zeku » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:09 pm

You know, now that I really think about your "seemingly irrelevant" argument, that it matters that I didn't mention that the MK could have been formed at the same time as Erf, I realize that it is in fact significant.

If it was formed simultaneously with Erf, then that could mean that it is the Titans themselves that mandated that only casters be allowed to enter it.

Frankly, that possibility had not even entered my mind, since I assumed all along that the MK was a normal hex on some inaccessible part of the map.

If you had simply said that "this is why I think the timing of the MK's creation matters" I could have reached an agreement with you sooner.

So Zeroberon, YOU WIN THIS ROUND.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby wih » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:25 pm

0beron wrote:1) Popping doesn't cost anything, it's a matter of production.


Small point - popping costs turns of production. If you spend 40 turns popping something you could have spent that 40 turns popping something else. So yes, there is a cost to popping, it's just not necessarily measured in schmukers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby ftl » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:11 pm

0beron wrote:ecause...idk about you...but um...I didn't see a fight...did you? Nobody in the MK cared enough or was organized enough to appose him, so nobody fired a first shot.


Well, to be pedantic, Jojo cared, and TRIED to rally opposition, but Paron defused it by saying that he didn't want to conquer the MK.

I'd count that as a diplomatic win for parson, though not really of the style that everyone was debating before. A win-by-not-fighting olive-style win; he gets what he wants (safe passage through the MK whenever he wants), everybody in the MK can suck it if they don't like it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby drachefly » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:49 pm

Oh, this wasn't an Olive-style win. She's way more subtle and acting friendly, while in the long run undermining the peace.

Parson's move was blunt and acting antagonistic, while in the long run trying to build the peace.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby BakaGrappler » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:58 pm

Okay, I did a quick head count. I counted up 10 soldiers, then did a rough estimate on the remaining space occupied by soldiers to get roughly 100 Infantry level units. I then counted 1 Knight (because they have capes as well), Lady Artemis, and Count Downer. Parson can totally add to the number of troops he has in the MK, but it seems that is all he could get through the door at this point in time.

...Maybe all that armor on the knights made them harder to carry?

And we now have decrypted casters. Oooooh.

AND I really, really hope that Artemis becomes someone of significance to the series. She has her own issues to work out, and I really, really want to see her interact with Parson since he's probably the first fair minded Warlord she's encountered in years.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:05 pm

I want to know what all of those soldiers will do in the Magic Kingdom. It seems that the only two things that could end their lives are an attack from the casters or being disbanded, but the casters are probably not looking for a fight and Gobwin Knob wouldn't disband them unless the entire side were destroyed, so they're stuck there into the distant future.

They seem to be radically out of their element. Surely they won't be accepted into any of the octants to live with the casters. Will they put up tents in Portal Park and live there forever, eternally cut off from the endless battles of Erfworld? Maybe Sizemore will build some sort of housing for them, or perhaps a little fortress even though it's not a city site. Maybe they will become old and wise, living in the perfect ideal of Faq as they slowly integrate into the caster community.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby 0beron » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:21 am

wih wrote:
0beron wrote:1) Popping doesn't cost anything, it's a matter of production.
Small point - popping costs turns of production. If you spend 40 turns popping something you could have spent that 40 turns popping something else. So yes, there is a cost to popping, it's just not necessarily measured in schmukers.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Someone was making a direct schmucker comparison, and I was trying to point out (in perhaps poor phrasing) that its really apples and oranges. You can't exactly draw a parallel between the schmuckers cost of the Summoning scroll with the number of turns it might have taken to make such a unit naturally, if that's even possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Gish » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:08 am

I see a lot of back and forth on the topic of what the Magic Kingdom is, and when it was created as well as where. I just assumed it to be another type of mercenary side, like FAQ and Charlescomm. In the very least a form of barbarian side, as that would explain why they don't freeroam the world. I mean no matter what all Erf units follow Erf rules. So even casters at the MK have upkeep that must be paid. On top of that a unit has to have a "side" or they either disband or turn barbarian. So units going there are actually "turning" for the sake of game rules. Units staying there, rather. Anyone can just visit in much the same way any side can have its units visit any other side they want to. But for those that are going down and sending their casters to the MK, those casters are turning to it as its own side.
So, Titan created or not, MK has to be its own side and, most likely, located on Erf. A side has to have a capital, and until I've seen an example of either one NOT having a capital or one having a capital not located on Erf, I'm placing bank on the MK being a physical location in the game world that could be sailed to. It looks like just some island. I get why thats harder to believe in, since no one would dare open portals to the other two merc sides. But maybe that's just turns upon turns of good diplomacy allowing this neutrality to exist. FAQ might not have been around long enough to earn the level of trust that would allow every side in the game to let em move in freely. Charlescomm is, possibly, even younger. The text updates aren't clear on EXACTLY when the whole deal between the florist and Charlie went down compared to Jillians time before being captured. I think it was mentioned that FAQ watched Haffaton grow into its size so its possible FAQ was around longer than merc charlie.
Does anyone recall story mention of how portals are opened? I don't think it comes with a capital. I think the portal room is an addition and the casters open it from their side after contacting the side. Did FAQ have a portal room? I can't seem to remember.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Aquillion » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:17 am

0beron wrote:
wih wrote:
0beron wrote:1) Popping doesn't cost anything, it's a matter of production.
Small point - popping costs turns of production. If you spend 40 turns popping something you could have spent that 40 turns popping something else. So yes, there is a cost to popping, it's just not necessarily measured in schmukers.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Someone was making a direct schmucker comparison, and I was trying to point out (in perhaps poor phrasing) that its really apples and oranges. You can't exactly draw a parallel between the schmuckers cost of the Summoning scroll with the number of turns it might have taken to make such a unit naturally, if that's even possible.
I don't think it is possible? As far as we can tell, it's not even possible to deliberately pop a regular warlord -- Wanda's family tried and got a Croakamancer instead. That could just be a special thing for heirs, but given that everyone has casters and nobody seems to be able to specifically choose to pop casters, it seems more likely that the way that it works is that you can just choose to pop a "hero" unit and will get something without knowing what -- could be a caster, could be a great general, could be a warlord focused on administration, whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby wih » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:43 am

Aquillion wrote:As far as we can tell, it's not even possible to deliberately pop a regular warlord -- Wanda's family tried and got a Croakamancer instead. That could just be a special thing for heirs, but given that everyone has casters and nobody seems to be able to specifically choose to pop casters, it seems more likely that the way that it works is that you can just choose to pop a "hero" unit and will get something without knowing what -- could be a caster, could be a great general, could be a warlord focused on administration, whatever.


You choose to pop a commander. It's almost always a Warlord, but there's a small chance* it'll be a caster.

So if you're trying to pop a Warlord, you'll order one commander.If you're trying to pop a caster, you'll order a LOT of Warlords.

It's definitely possible to deliberately pop a Warlord. It's just not always guaranteed to work in the way you might intend.

*except for the first few. They're usually casters.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:12 am

Gish wrote:On top of that a unit has to have a "side" or they either disband or turn barbarian. So units going there are actually "turning" for the sake of game rules.
I'm curious about your reasoning. You've just explained that units can either have a side or be barbarian, so why do you then concluded that casters in the Magic Kingdom must have a side as though being barbarian isn't an option? I thought it was well established that casters who live in the Magic Kingdom are barbarian, but I can't think of anything to cite to support that; it just seems natural since they have no clear side.

Gish wrote:A side has to have a capital, and until I've seen an example of either one NOT having a capital or one having a capital not located on Erf, I'm placing bank on the MK being a physical location in the game world that could be sailed to.
Another consequence of your theory is far more interesting: a side also needs a ruler, so who is the ruler of the Magic Kingdom? I think that since we've seen no hints about that ruler there probably is no ruler and the Magic Kingdom is not a side, since barbarians don't need rulers. On the other hand it's a bit odd that they call it "kingdom" if there is no king. Perhaps the name "Magic Kingdom" is a way of saying that magic is king there.

Gish wrote:Does anyone recall story mention of how portals are opened? I don't think it comes with a capital. I think the portal room is an addition and the casters open it from their side after contacting the side.
We've seen a portal close and open in Book 2 as Spacerock stopped being the capital of Jetstone and then became the capital of Gobwin Knob. It seemed to happen instantly with no additional effort required.

Gish wrote:Did FAQ have a portal room?
I think I remember Jillian ordering Faq to hire a Turnamancer from the Magic Kingdom at some point in Book 0. I think many of the casters of Faq escaped into the Magic Kingdom when Faq was conquered by Haffaton.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Doctor Foreman » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:20 am

Gish wrote:I just assumed it to be another type of mercenary side, like FAQ and Charlescomm. In the very least a form of barbarian side, as that would explain why they don't freeroam the world.

A barbarian side is a contradiction in terms.

I mean no matter what all Erf units follow Erf rules. So even casters at the MK have upkeep that must be paid.

I assume this works like any naturally-popping barbarian units; they have to hire themselves out to sides to acquire the funds for their upkeep. Jillian kept up this lifestyle for quite a while, and it stands to reason that casters based in the MK would have even better hiring opportunities than her. Bear in mind that there are many, many sides that haven't even been mentioned yet, and it's probably quite expensive to hire casters.

On top of that a unit has to have a "side" or they either disband or turn barbarian. So units going there are actually "turning" for the sake of game rules. Units staying there, rather. Anyone can just visit in much the same way any side can have its units visit any other side they want to. But for those that are going down and sending their casters to the MK, those casters are turning to it as its own side.

I don't really understand this reasoning. If every unit in the MK were on the same side, they wouldn't be able to act against one another without Duty and Loyalty coming into play, and sides wouldn't be able to send casters into the MK except as a serious last-resort tactic. There is no fixed command hierarchy in the Magic Kingdom, which is unthinkable for a side.

It seems much more reasonable to believe that the Magic Kingdom is simply a hex which is in battlespace terms permanently contested; because its occupants are casters rather than simple unled troops, they can choose not to engage one another.

most likely, located on Erf

Although I do believe that the MK is located on whatever "planet" Erf is, I would hesitate to call it "most likely"; we don't really have evidence for it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:57 am

Doctor Foreman wrote:It seems much more reasonable to believe that the Magic Kingdom is simply a hex which is in battlespace terms permanently contested; because its occupants are casters rather than simple unled troops, they can choose not to engage one another.


We know this last point isn't true. Any side in battlespace with a barbarian unit would never start turn at dawn. I don't have a specific example handy, but in sure there are turns where GK starts turn at dawn and sends a caster to the MK. You can also move across the MK off turn.

It's clearly NOT a regular, but isolated, hex where the normal rules apply. Off-turn movement and natural turn order rules don't apply to units there.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Lilwik » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:23 am

GWvsJohn wrote:Any side in battlespace with a barbarian unit would never start turn at dawn.
That's a really tricky point that highlights how little we know about how turns work. Everyone always seems to have as much time as they need to do the things they are going to do, but even so time doesn't wait for anyone: the sun progresses across the sky and you can't read an entire library in a single turn. When Jillian was a fugitive from Haffaton she moved on Haffaton's turn, but before Haffaton's units, and yet she never seemed to have to deliberately end her turn; Haffaton just started moving whenever Jillian was done. It seems to me that the barbarians of the Magic Kingdom are something similar, except that because they are in the Magic Kingdom there is nothing for them to do, so their turn ends as soon as it begins at dawn, just like Jillian's would if she chose to do nothing one day while she was a fugitive.

GWvsJohn wrote:You can also move across the MK off turn.
That doesn't mean anything if the Magic Kingdom is entirely within one hex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby GWvsJohn » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:39 pm

Lilwik wrote:That's a really tricky point that highlights how little we know about how turns work. Everyone always seems to have as much time as they need to do the things they are going to do, but even so time doesn't wait for anyone: the sun progresses across the sky and you can't read an entire library in a single turn. When Jillian was a fugitive from Haffaton she moved on Haffaton's turn, but before Haffaton's units, and yet she never seemed to have to deliberately end her turn; Haffaton just started moving whenever Jillian was done. It seems to me that the barbarians of the Magic Kingdom are something similar, except that because they are in the Magic Kingdom there is nothing for them to do, so their turn ends as soon as it begins at dawn, just like Jillian's would if she chose to do nothing one day while she was a fugitive.


The neverending time debate isn't really relevant here. It's been explicitly stated that if you are in battlespace (which is basically another way of saying occupying the same hex) with another side or barbarians, then you go in natural turn order. Barbarians are first in natural turn order. You can say that they just end their turn effectively instantly from other sides perspectives, but that can't be true. It has been stated that most spells cannot be cast off turn. In the MK, Sizemore builds a Pyramid, then Joe Dirtamancer destroys it, on Jetstone's turn. If the MK followed normal turn order stuff, that shouldn't be possible

Lilwik wrote:That doesn't mean anything if the Magic Kingdom is entirely within one hex.


I was referring more to entering and leaving it, but I guess the Portals may bypass hex boundary rules.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby hehehe426 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:50 pm

I personally LOVE Jack's new look! I don't think he looks evil at all, I think he looks very pleased with himself and confident. And I don't know, beneath the calm yet quirky demeanor he's displayed up to now I've always detected a hint of pranksterism and self-confidence. I'd love to see what he's like. And I think he looks fantastic with pale skin and blue eyes. X3
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Oberon » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Nihila wrote:Is it just me, or is Parson basically declaring war on everything? Demanding the right to go to anywhere though the MK seems provocative at best, and won't make any other sides happy with him, I don't think.
Parson instead tried to calm matters. The MK is used to only having casters pass through, but now Parson is teaching them a new paradigm.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 114

Postby Sojiko » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:49 pm

I just wanted to say that Jack's new look works great, those color relly agree with him, but Ace has no such luck.
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