Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Not Me » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:21 pm

joosy wrote:Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE041_LaurelB.jpg


Well, if you want to talk about retconjuring something, I found odd the following two pieces of "info".

Charlie as a carnymancer

“Between their domains stood the side of el-Efbaum, with this emerald city as its capital. It also was ruled by a caster, a Carnymancer. At the time, he only allowed himself to be called ‘The Wizard.’ You would know him as Charlie.”

Jillian shook her head. Carnymancy. Nice. Hating Charlie suddenly seemed a little more justified now. It did explain a lot about him, though.


Charlie as a Thinkamancer

“He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”


Supposedly, when Jillian was talking to Ansom and said that Charlie was a Thinkamancer, she already knew about Wanda saying Charlie was a Carnymancer.

A possible explanation for this would be that Jillian was trying to avoid giving Ansom that piece of information (about Charlie being a Carny).

But another possible explanation I fancy mainly due to all the information Wanda and Jack seemed to have had about Charlie that would have been very useful to Parson and due to Parson's actions it seemed he didn't have is that somehow, a good part of what happened in Book 0 (specially everything related to Charlie) has been erased from the memories of the witnesses of all we are learning from this Book. And if that is really the case, I hope we will learn about that at the end of Book 0.

Also I recall someone saying something about paying the price to come back from the dead (don't remember if it was in this or other thread) and I found this at the beginning of Book 0.

Ask any Mathamancer; they know. To live is to stand on one side of an equation, which must equal zero in the end. There is a price, a cost in Numbers, to be paid for staying alive.

Zero is a balance, an equilibrium. Zero is a flat country, neither far away nor near. You can travel there any time, at the cost of your life. And perhaps, if someone were to pay the price to the exact number, you could even return again.

That Mathamancers often say such things, and nod to one another soberly, is thought to be why they tend to keep to their own company. No-one knows what to say to them. Each discipline of magic has its own special insight into cosmic truths. Few casters doubted what was said of the Numbers Axis, but even fewer understood.


I want to think Charlie's big secret (or at least one of his big secrets) has to do with this. Somehow he knew what was the exact number and paid the price. I also want to think something similar is what Jojo did for Sylvia. Somehow he talked Charlie into learning what was that "exact number" and had Charlie paid the price (so Jojo is probably "eternally" in debt with Charlie).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:37 pm

drachefly wrote:Back on topic: Banhammer sure didn't make any attempt to constrain communication between the witness and the accused - that's a basic concern in the courtroom. Of course, this is the first time, so I can see why he wouldn't have ironed the wrinkles out yet. But you can bet that this test case will get him to rewrite and expand on the idea.
I doubt it. There are no lawyers on Erfworld and there probably never could be any. Olive is defending herself, as would anyone who is put on trail. It would require some revolutionary thought to have the trail work any other way, and I doubt Banhammer would think of it. If he did think of it, it would probably be rejected as being unfair to the accused. If the accused defends herself, she needs to be allowed to talk to the witness to bring forth whatever evidence she can.

The only problem here is the fact that Charlie is the ruler of a powerful side and the result of this interview could mean life or death for every member of court, not just the accused. I'd be surprised if that's ever happened in Stupidworld.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:35 pm

Perhaps disbanding doesn't lead to immediate depopping, but instead divorces you from the side? I know all the units of Unaroyal vanished when Bea went through the portal, but she had also spent all of Unaroyal's treasury to promote all the units, so they wouldn't have any purse to pay their upkeep without her.

Banhammer disbands Jill, but because Faq still has a purse, Jill gets a cut whenshe's forced out, and doesn't immediately depop from lack of upkeep?

I can already see flaws in this line of thought, but I'm just trying to think outside of the box.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Maeltne » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:53 pm

Banhammer has never really had my respect. He's a generally hypocrite that has build a kingdom of 'peace' off of the proceeds of war. But that's general; it's rationalizable, it's the way the world is. But he's never really had my disrespect either.

But if he actively attempts to disband (murder) any unit, let alone his own daughter, while pretending to hold a 'civilized' trial; he'll lose any fragments of respect that he might have had and earn my disrespect in full. Additionally the inconsistency in his logic and intelligence will be so glaring that it will be hard for that not to reflect poorly on the story without a very good explanation.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby OneHugeTuck » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:06 pm

Wanda didn't say that Charlie was/is a Carnymancer. What was actually said a couple updates ago was: "He survived by means of Carnymancy, buying back his life at a terrible cost."

Edit: I stand corrected by Lilwick. Update 66. See a few posts down.


Not Me wrote:
joosy wrote:Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE041_LaurelB.jpg


Well, if you want to talk about retconjuring something, I found odd the following two pieces of "info".

Charlie as a carnymancer

“Between their domains stood the side of el-Efbaum, with this emerald city as its capital. It also was ruled by a caster, a Carnymancer. At the time, he only allowed himself to be called ‘The Wizard.’ You would know him as Charlie.”

Jillian shook her head. Carnymancy. Nice. Hating Charlie suddenly seemed a little more justified now. It did explain a lot about him, though.


Charlie as a Thinkamancer

“He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”


Supposedly, when Jillian was talking to Ansom and said that Charlie was a Thinkamancer, she already knew about Wanda saying Charlie was a Carnymancer.

A possible explanation for this would be that Jillian was trying to avoid giving Ansom that piece of information (about Charlie being a Carny).

But another possible explanation I fancy mainly due to all the information Wanda and Jack seemed to have had about Charlie that would have been very useful to Parson and due to Parson's actions it seemed he didn't have is that somehow, a good part of what happened in Book 0 (specially everything related to Charlie) has been erased from the memories of the witnesses of all we are learning from this Book. And if that is really the case, I hope we will learn about that at the end of Book 0.

Also I recall someone saying something about paying the price to come back from the dead (don't remember if it was in this or other thread) and I found this at the beginning of Book 0.

Ask any Mathamancer; they know. To live is to stand on one side of an equation, which must equal zero in the end. There is a price, a cost in Numbers, to be paid for staying alive.

Zero is a balance, an equilibrium. Zero is a flat country, neither far away nor near. You can travel there any time, at the cost of your life. And perhaps, if someone were to pay the price to the exact number, you could even return again.

That Mathamancers often say such things, and nod to one another soberly, is thought to be why they tend to keep to their own company. No-one knows what to say to them. Each discipline of magic has its own special insight into cosmic truths. Few casters doubted what was said of the Numbers Axis, but even fewer understood.


I want to think Charlie's big secret (or at least one of his big secrets) has to do with this. Somehow he knew what was the exact number and paid the price. I also want to think something similar is what Jojo did for Sylvia. Somehow he talked Charlie into learning what was that "exact number" and had Charlie paid the price (so Jojo is probably "eternally" in debt with Charlie).
Last edited by OneHugeTuck on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Maeltne wrote:But if he actively attempts to disband (murder) any unit, let alone his own daughter, while pretending to hold a 'civilized' trial; he'll lose any fragments of respect that he might have had and earn my disrespect in full.
He's not the one who made the trial uncivilized. Jillian did. The fact that Jillian did it to save Faq and that there was probably no other way to ensure Faq's safety is an entirely different issue. Banhammer is still fighting to make the trial civilized, even though it's a bad idea.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Wanda didn't say that Charlie was/is a Carnymancer.
Yes she did. See Episode 66:
Wanda: “Between their domains stood the side of el-Efbaum, with this emerald city as its capital. It also was ruled by a caster, a Carnymancer. At the time, he only allowed himself to be called ‘The Wizard.’ You would know him as Charlie.”
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby rezby » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:27 pm

joosy wrote:
0beron wrote:
joosy wrote:My apologies, I meant where the court [of Old FAQ] was in Book 2, not Book 0.
Oooooooh! Well, supposedly they were assumed to be croaked in Stanley's attack. And I am inclined to believe it. For 1 many of them are casters of very combat-useful schools: Orwell, Betsy, and Rusty come to mind in particular. And secondly, I have to believe that if they knew Jillian was alive and FAQ re-founded, they would have shown themselves, or would be working with Marie.


Well.. that is the assumption but I would guess their fate was left purposefully vague so they could be worked back in. I imagine they are in some secret enclave waiting for a prediction from Marie to come to pass.

Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE041_LaurelB.jpg


This is Jillian Founding a brand new Side, named Faq. She wasn't aware that Charlie knew that the Barbarian Jillian Zamussels had become Queen Jillian and Founded a side. That's the Faq she's surprised he's aware of.

The old Faq is quite dead and long gone at that point in the comic, and utterly irrelevant to the current drama transpiring. Except for it being Jillian's motivation, nobody else cares about it anymore. Stanley doesn't even remember its name and he conquered it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:43 pm

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:Also, if he really was trying to disband Jill, my own theory is currently based on the fact that an extremely powerful Carnymancer with an Arkentool at his disposal is currently watching the scene. Suppose he were to step in to block the order? Can Carnymagic do that?
That actually sounds very reasonable. As far as I can figure, Carnymancy changes the rules of how things work or rig odds. Jojo changed how incapacitation worked so that Sylvia didn't die, but instead eventually got healed. He also seemingly bestowed a fake fate on her so that she wouldn't die (or maybe those were the same thing), and all in all she has been somehow linked to fire. Maybe her fake fate is that she will die in a fire, so she died in a fire in GK, then died in a fire in SR. Anyway, point is it seems possible that Charlie could rig the disband order so that it promotes Jillian instead, or just orders her to go away, or even to kill Olive. It's hard to say for sure, and I'm still banking on him disbanding the gwiffon, but Charlie might be able to interfere.
Also, Also, I don't remember there being a terrible secret that Charlie is trying to protect, or his poisoning, but if both of those things are real, then I can also bet that the secret is that he's Rigged the Game on himself, like Ginger McBurnsalot, and is actually in a constant state of dying/deflecting his Fate unto others. OOH! What if his carney/arkendish-fueled resistance to poison is poisoning the Erfworld?

That's actually a very interesting possibility. I like the deflecting fate idea. Perhaps every turn a certain number of units needs to die so that Charlie doesn't? Although that doesn't make as much sense as it might since he stopped wanting to unite Erf before he was poisoned. I like the idea someone else posed that Charlie is somehow using Schmuckers to keep himself alive, likely in some sort of Mr. House (from Fallout: New Vegas) way.

Oh, and as for all the people worrying about the possible Retconning... well, lets just say I won't be the tiniest bit surprised if this somehow ends in at least a partial mindwipe of the people present. I mean, we've seen Wanda use a spell/magic item to do exactly that, and it is almost certainly thinkamancy, so it seems reasonable that Charlie could do it as well, though he'd likely need to make terms to do it from afar. Maybe he ends up agreeing to go with the trial in exchange for all the knowledge of him to be wiped from their minds afterwards?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ff6shadow » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:That actually sounds very reasonable. As far as I can figure, Carnymancy changes the rules of how things work or rig odds. Jojo changed how incapacitation worked so that Sylvia didn't die, but instead eventually got healed. He also seemingly bestowed a fake fate on her so that she wouldn't die (or maybe those were the same thing), and all in all she has been somehow linked to fire. Maybe her fake fate is that she will die in a fire, so she died in a fire in GK, then died in a fire in SR. Anyway, point is it seems possible that Charlie could rig the disband order so that it promotes Jillian instead, or just orders her to go away, or even to kill Olive. It's hard to say for sure, and I'm still banking on him disbanding the gwiffon, but Charlie might be able to interfere.


While Charlies could possibly maybe interfere, why would he? There doesn't seem to be any profit to him. If he wants Faq dead, he implied that would be easy. If he wants Olive dead, it would be just as easy to wait and watch. If Olive does somehow survive, he could probably sweep in and kill her easily as well.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Eva » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:00 pm

Is there a way that Wanda can stop the disbanding without uncroaking? It would be a nice way to show she is not interested in all death all the time and help to build trust between them in the long run, not to mention I think even at this early stage she feels something for Jillian.

Or there's Charlie.

Or perhaps Banhammer is out of practice disbanding and doesn't know he isn't following some rule correctly (can he only disband on their turn, etc., etc.?).

Or there's the mount, but I really hope it doesn't come to that.

The end result should be that Banhammer is brought down in the eyes of the court.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:19 pm

Eva wrote:Or there's Charlie.
Casting Carnymancy from this distance? That would be maddening deus ex machina.

Eva wrote:Or perhaps Banhammer is out of practice disbanding and doesn't know he isn't following some rule correctly.
This is the sort of knowledge that Erfworlders are built with. I would be blown away if he manages to fail because he doesn't know what he's doing.

Eva wrote:Or there's the mount, but I really hope it doesn't come to that.
It makes so much more sense than any other suggestion I've seen.

Eva wrote:The end result should be that Banhammer is brought down in the eyes of the court.
I think they've been wishing he'd disband Jillian for a long time, and disbanding the gwiffon would be a display of power that is effectively wielded to save Olive's life and maintain order for the good of the trial.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Azukar » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:36 pm

Not Me wrote: -snip-
I want to think Charlie's big secret (or at least one of his big secrets) has to do with this. Somehow he knew what was the exact number and paid the price. I also want to think something similar is what Jojo did for Sylvia. Somehow he talked Charlie into learning what was that "exact number" and had Charlie paid the price (so Jojo is probably "eternally" in debt with Charlie).


I wonder if Jillian really will disband here, but later on someone will pay the price for her to return (the 'exact number') - it might explain for her at least why she has apparently no memory of all these events in the main storyline.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Jamus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:24 pm

It's probably either the mount, or a unit being disbanded has a chance to turn barbarian instead. Especially if their duty actually compels them to. We have some evidence that warlords can intentionally turn- at least, Charlie didn't object to the idea when Parson suggested he might, to take Spacerock.

But I think we're paying way, way more attention to that than we should be.

“Of Judy? That’s...technically hericide, isn’t it?”

Banhammer cleared his throat. “Of you,” he said.

“Oh...”

“They know I’m your daughter,” said Olive, her voice low and bitter. “And they think I tried to croak you.”

Charlie gave the briefest pause, but his voice never lost its sunny tenor. “What else do they know, Olive?”

“More than you want them to,” said Olive coldly. “Still more, if this goes on.”

“Ah. So the question is, um... Hmh.” Charlie’s voice seemed to stumble and trail off. Then he instantly brightened again. “Well, the question is, how does it feel to be a ruler, Olive? I mean, are you getting a new perspective on things? Maybe changed your mind on some of those old, ah, discussions we’ve had?”


"Queen Jillian, you were not the only one who lost much at the Battle for Gobwin Knob."

Her eyes narrowed. "You didn't lose what I did, Charlie."

"I lost more than you can know," he said. "My secrets have been compromised. You can't imagine what that may mean."


There's a LOT of hints being dropped about Charlie here. I am ever-more convinced that Janis IS Olive, but also that she really honestly does intend to bring 'peace' to Erfworld, by whatever insane methods are available to her, whether that's disbanding everything to a single low-upkeep side or breaking the world with Parson.

"Still more, if this goes on." That means someone other than Charlie knows Charlie-sensitive things that they have not revealed yet. It's interesting how immediately Charlie changed his position. He obviously instantly decided he was getting involved to shut this thing down. The terrifying thing is that he thinks he has some way of resolving this situation, from afar, on Haffaton's turn. And given that he jumped to negotiating- not with Faq, but with Olive- suggests to me that his plan does not involve Olive staying with Faq. The fact that Olive thinks the garden is one of her properties still leans the same way.

One of the most tantalizing bits is that Charlie completely changed his motives after getting the Arkendish. Completely and utterly. He went from someone who wanted peace on erf to a depressed shutin to a mercenary with his finger in all the pies. I think Olive believes he betrayed her and their shared goal for peace. The LAST thing he wants is peace on erf, and his biggest fear is his secrets being exposed.

Which makes me read that last bit- "You can't imagine what that may mean"- in a totally different context, now. I don't think he's so vain as to think Jillian would care about any secret about HIM. More than you "can know." "You can't imagine what that may mean." I don't think he meant, "mean for my interests." I think he meant it in a much, much broader way.

So here's my epileptic tree. Charlie is either from stupidworld, or became aware of it through the dish or summons. He also has, apparently, unlimited range and juice for communication and to some extent, spying. Doesn't it seem strange that this gameworld never has a winner? What if Charlie learned a huge secret about Erfworld itself? What if he found out the players were still there? Were still playing this game in whatever way they do? The last thing he'd want is peace on erf.. because then the game's over. Jillian can't imagine what that might mean. Charlie was described by Judy as a very nice man. We know he's mercenary- literally- but maybe he really is trying to protect the world by keeping the pot stirred.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Jamus » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:34 pm

Bonus epileptic points. The arkentools turn their attuned into the avatars of the player, but it didn't work on Charlie because he is a stupidworldian and the rules don't work right on him, like Parson.

And the trees are alive! And the smoke monster is trapped under the MK! And Charlie is David Bowie!
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby BakaGrappler » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:55 pm

I think there is at least one thing everyone here can agree on.

King Banhammer is being a Complete Effing Idiot. (CFI for short.)

But I think I know why. He sees Olive as his chance to escape his Fate of being killed when FAQ falls, and so he is doing everything in his power to find the truth and satisfy his desire to leave his kingdom behind and keep living. He is desperately trying to avoid his Fate right now which is why he's getting to petulant so much here. He's always been a CFI but now he's got an agenda he's trying to fulfill. He's trying to cheat his own death.

And I think things are only going to get better once Marie calls him out for being a chicken-ass chicken-butt.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Mogster2 » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:17 am

Lilwik wrote:So you're saying that Banhammer might be just saying the words without actually disbanding anyone? It did surprise me that Banhammer wouldn't just disband by thought alone. But then again, Charlie can surely see everything that's happening, so he would see whether Jillian is disbanded or not. On the other hand, Jack is the one that Charlie is connected to, so perhaps there is an unspoken intention behind Banhammer's order that everyone except Charlie hears by Natural Thinkamancy: "Everyone act like Jillian is disbanded. Jack, fool Charlie, please." In other words, he is ordering everyone to consider Jillian disbanded, instead of actually disbanding her.

That's an awful stretch. I consider disbanding the gwiffon to be much more likely, but the fake disbanding is still better than the idea that disbanding can be ignored or survived. I remember that somewhere it was said that Mathamancers think that it might be possible to pop dead units back into Erfworld if exactly the right price is paid. I don't remember where I read that, but even that seems more likely to me than Jillian simply ignoring her own disbanding

I don't think Banhammer is that imaginative. Jack, surely, but old stick-in-the-mud? Can't see it.

Anyway, what are the odds that Banhammer did in fact disband the gwiffon, then Jillian croaks Olive by landing on her?

TheLiontamer wrote:In my head I see the Gwiffon being disbanded, Jillian falling, and Fate borrows the numbers to croak Olive when Jillian falls on her. Or even Jillian falling sword first onto her. The former being more Erf-y and Fate-y to me.

Bah, beat me to it. :P

Lilwik wrote:
drachefly wrote:Back on topic: Banhammer sure didn't make any attempt to constrain communication between the witness and the accused - that's a basic concern in the courtroom. Of course, this is the first time, so I can see why he wouldn't have ironed the wrinkles out yet. But you can bet that this test case will get him to rewrite and expand on the idea.
I doubt it. There are no lawyers on Erfworld and there probably never could be any. Olive is defending herself, as would anyone who is put on trail. It would require some revolutionary thought to have the trail work any other way, and I doubt Banhammer would think of it. If he did think of it, it would probably be rejected as being unfair to the accused. If the accused defends herself, she needs to be allowed to talk to the witness to bring forth whatever evidence she can.

The only problem here is the fact that Charlie is the ruler of a powerful side and the result of this interview could mean life or death for every member of court, not just the accused. I'd be surprised if that's ever happened in Stupidworld.

Now I have to wonder. Where would Lawyermancy fall on the Axes of Magic? Numbers surely, given the prices they charge... anything else?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:27 am

Mogster2 wrote:Now I have to wonder. Where would Lawyermancy fall on the Axes of Magic? Numbers surely, given the prices they charge... anything else?


Lawyermancy is rolled up into Carnymancy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby zilfallon » Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:27 am

Eva wrote:The end result should be that Banhammer is brought down in the eyes of the court.


This. In Faq court, you lose when you rage and raise your voice.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:01 am

Jamus, are you saying that through use of the dish, Charlie gleaned the game-like nature of Erfworld, and thus realized that if one side won, the world would end, due to the game ending? If so, i love that idea. Better a world at war than no world at all.

Of course, if Parson manages to break the rules and turn Erf into a straight up rpg instead of a turn based strategy, Charlie might actually support that.

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby arin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:43 am

Oh God. Sooooo many things to respond to, I don't even know where to start!!!

Jamus wrote:Doesn't it seem strange that this gameworld never has a winner? What if Charlie learned a huge secret about Erfworld itself?


This is the most brilliant theory I've heard in a long time, and I LOVE it. It fits perfectly with what we know, it's an awesome and powerful twist... even if it's not the case here, I could see whole books based on this premise rocking peoples' worlds at The Big Reveal (no pun intended). What an exceptional idea.

joosy wrote:Also, hopefully there is some retconning of this update so that Jillian forgets about this encounter as this little trial is how Charlie 'knew about FAQ at all."
http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... aurelB.jpg


I didn't have a problem with this. "How do you know about FAQ at all?" works just as well if what Jillian is really asking is how Charlie knows that Faq has been rebuilt and revitalized, as opposed to how he knew it existed.

Not Me wrote:(blah blah Carnymancer vs. Thinkamancer blah blah)


This is a bit more suspicious, and yes, I agree that it requires a mind wipe of some sort to justify. I suppose you could argue that she was speaking to the "enemy" (Ansom) at that moment, and that Charlie being a Carny was information not to reveal to an enemy, but Jillian doesn't strike me as the type to take that precaution, nor was she really in the frame of mind to think about it whilst in the middle of confessing her deep love for him.

While we're on the subject of stuff from that era, was there any speculation on why Charlie couldn't just directly tell Jillian or Tramennis about Parson's lunch plans? Just trying to keep the secret that he can listen in on calls?

Maeltne wrote:But if he actively attempts to disband (murder) any unit, let alone his own daughter, while pretending to hold a 'civilized' trial...


That's not really fair. If you were a parent holding "trial" at the kitchen table with your son's friend as the defendant and, in the middle of the "trial", your son jumped across the kitchen table with a knife intent on killing his friend, wouldn't you be forced to take extreme measures to protect life? Possibly even end your son's life, if there was no other way, rather than see his murderous rampage through to conclusion?

That said, I'm in agreement with most that the target is the gwiffon. The least of all evils, as it were.

Oberon wrote:As for Bea, I don't think that was ever part of the evidence against at-will disbanding. The reason she sent units into the field was to burn up her treasury the only way she could. If she had manually disbanded them and then ended the side (presumably) GK still would have captured the Treasury when they took the city.


This is what I really wanted to comment on. I think Bea promoted her units to full and sent them into the field to guarantee that they would disband, because according to Parson, units in a city don't disband when a ruler dies, they just hang around waiting to be slaughtered. I would suppose that yes, she could have just disbanded them herself, but perhaps only one by one, and thus this was the method of letting her troops die suddenly rather than make most of them crap themselves as they see it coming.

I suppose it could have been both of those reasons PLUS the treasury one. It's a nice neat solution to multiple problems, and she was nothing if not shrewd.
arin
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