Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:52 am

arin wrote:Charlie being a Carny was information not to reveal to an enemy, but Jillian doesn't strike me as the type to take that precaution.

Oh I disagree, Jillian may not be smart/cautious in all things, but she has demonstrated she knows the value of information. While still working for Old FAQ, she was beyond paranoid about all the ways "innocent" information could come back to haunt her. So I think she's smart enough to avoid telling Ansom about Charlie's real nature if she still knows it.
On this general topic, I think some people are suggesting that Rob made an error and that he wrote that conversation with Jillian before he had decided Charlie was a Carny. Sure, while writing book 1, Rob didn't know if it'd continue, and I'm sure he has "filled in some gaps" as he went along...but no even halfway decent writer would start a story without deciding on the "basic bio" of all his main characters. Rob has always known Charlie is a Carny, he just waited until the proper time to tell us. So Jillians statement is either the result of her cleverness, or a mind-wipe, not Rob's error that needs to be retconjured.

arin wrote:It's a nice neat solution to multiple problems, and she was nothing if not shrewd.
Agreed, I think all three reasons [Sentiment, Treasury, and Nuetral-sitting-duck-itus] likely motivated her.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Rothkal » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:03 pm

So, my pieces to throw into the discussion here.

When it comes to who is being disbanded, I think Banhammer is targeting Jillian, not the mount. If he was targeting the mount, because its an animal, wouldn't he harvest it instead?

Next, I could see there being a delay between declaring a unit is disbanded and the actual disbanding, sort of a "click ok to continue" because in most cases there is no benefit to disbanding a unit. This would also give a unit time to go barbarian if they are attempting to take over their own side by force. The court will call Banhammer out on trying to disband Jillian in the middle of a trial and not giving her a trial in pursuit of justice, so Banhammer will decide not to disband Jillian, but will decide that she will be tried after the current trial.

Lastly, and a little more out there, can Charlie link with Olive? If I recall correctly, Charlie was linked with Vanna in book 2 for the Kingworld spell at a distance. In all this commotion, could Charlie link with Olive and use her to start casting spells and really mess things up? Heck, this could be the first time such an ability is demonstrated. It would give the method to the memory wipe people are discussing. It would give Jillian the knowledge that such a thing can be done when it came time for book 2 and know what is going on.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Zeku » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:29 pm

The whole situation reminds me of the Marvel Watchers. Because they have sworn never to interfere, they end up interfering about as much as everyone else.

Charlie has such important secrets, so of course, a standard percentage of the main characters know most of those secrets.

The real way to keep a secret is to make sure you're the only person who knows about it, and hide it in plain sight, preferably behind a thick wall of trifling and childish disinformation, so as to prompt people's unwillingness to appear silly by investigating further. The question is whether Charlie is a Xanatos-tier villain who has nested secrets and/or is making a play for something that has no connection to Erfworld or war.

Given how closely he is now modeled after the Wizard of Oz, I would say no.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:53 pm

Rothkal wrote:If he was targeting the mount, because its an animal, wouldn't he harvest it instead?
The only point of disbanding the mount would be to save Olive's life, not to kill her. She's trapped inside the gwiffon and unable to breath. Disbanding the gwiffon would make it vanish. Harvesting the gwiffon would just turn it into a dead gwiffon which is still wrapped around Olive. Maybe Olive could pull herself out of a dead gwiffon, or maybe she would need someone to dig her out, but either way it's not nearly as good as disbanding for accomplishing the goal that I strongly suspect Banhammer has. Disbanding Jillian wouldn't directly save Olive either, though I'm sure Banhammer could command the gwiffon once Jillian is gone.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:20 pm

I like the idea that the Dish gave Charlie a view of Erfworld as a game as opposed to a real world, but I like to think that instead of it being a computer game that people are still playing (or the equivalent) it simply has the victory condition of only one side remaining (or whatever), at which point the game will end, or restart, or whatever. Thus conquering the world results in your own death. Basically the same as already put forward, but without there being 'players', and without Erfworld being an actual game.

And if the above is true, I wonder if, being a Carnymancer, Charlie is working towards not simply prolonging the 'game' forever, but instead working up the levels/resources to work his magic on the victory condition of Erf itself. Come to think of it, given how old he is, he must be like.... level 15+ already. I mean, Olive was 12, and she was younger than Charlie, and a few hundred turns at least have passed since then.

This would all explain alot about Charlie, but there are two things in particular that it would explain: It would explain why he opposes Stanley so much. He thinks Stanley might actually win, thus ending the world. It also explains why he is so very interested in Parson. Parson would no doubt be able to aid in the operations that Charlie is already undergoing, but would also be uniquely situated to understand what Charlie knows, and, among other things, help him in breaking that big rule.

Oh, and as someone else stated, it would show his comment about 'you can't possibly imagine what that would mean' being about Jillian being unable to understand the victory condition, as opposed to how much knowledge of his secrets getting out would hurt him.

If the above is all true, I suppose the biggest question is why Charlie doesn't tell people? Maybe just because they wouldn't believe him? They'd think he was just trying to stop wars with some made up stuff. Or maybe other Erfworlds would be literally unable to comprehend the victory condition? Or Erf starts booping him out if he tries talking about it. One of the later seems more likely, or he would have told Olive. Perhaps he was trying to use her powers to enter Stupidworld in his mind? Hell, maybe he was somehow influential in Parson's life. I kind of hope this is true, as it makes Charlie an even more awesome character than he already is.

If it was though, I wonder why he wouldn't tell Parson? Maybe from his earlier comment about people not believing info given freely? Right now though, the only way Parson is likely to believe this is if Charlie gives it as his defense when Parson has taken his City and is standing over Charlie, ready to kill him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:54 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Come to think of it, given how old he is, he must be like.... level 15+ already. I mean, Olive was 12, and she was younger than Charlie, and a few hundred turns at least have passed since then.

Don't forget though, Olive's been croaking lots of high level units via treachery. What did Wanda say, something like 200 was it? Charlie has mostly been in business though his planning. The only way he's getting xp is from casting spells in his hidey hole, which is a lot slower than croaking units. I'm sure he's high level, but I doubt he's that high.

Speaking of age, do Erfworlders have some sort of variable turn limit on how long they get to live? After all, aged appearance seems to be based more on personality/Signamancy than on how long said unit has actually lived. If there isn't a turn limit, I wonder if there are any ancient casters in the Magic Kingdom that remember the Titans themselves?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:59 pm

What good would telling people do? I see only a few options for if he did.

1. They don't believe him.

2. They believe him, and try to become peaceful, leaving themselves as easy targets, or without the smuckers to continue due to lack of conquest.

3. They believe him, and join into an alliance to fight with him to keep war going. This just means that the conflict has grown, and the end is that much nearer.

4. They enter into a conspiracy, engaging in endless war with Charlie. They battle forever, costing countless lives, simply so there will always be war, and life will continue.

The only option of these that helps Charlie is the last one, but that requires that he A. Trust someone enough to have such a plan, and B. Trust that that ruler's underlings won't rebel under such commands.

What Charlie is doing doesn't require anyone else. He is keeping plates spinning, not trying to create a balancing act. If a plate drops, he can recover.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby davidj » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:06 am

the_tick_rules wrote:Not the best cliff hanger, we know she won't be erased.


That problem is inherent to prequels.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:58 am

davidj wrote:That problem is inherent to prequels.
It's interesting that his prequel has fully embraced that problem by giving us a Prediction that guarantees Jillian's survival, so even people who haven't read Book 1 or Book 2 still know that Jillian survives. Even so, it's somehow an excellent cliffhanger because it has me right on the edge of my seat. For the first time in a while I'm looking forward to the next Book 0 update more than I'm looking forward to Book 2.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Smoker » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:02 am

I'm finding Charlie's responses slightly un-charliesque, and quite like the idea that Jack is being a fricken legend and duping everyone.
No, no. It hit him in the brain because it killed him. - Dante
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby mortissimus » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:04 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Speaking of age, do Erfworlders have some sort of variable turn limit on how long they get to live? After all, aged appearance seems to be based more on personality/Signamancy than on how long said unit has actually lived.


Death by age has not been mentioned, so I don't think it exists in Erfworld.

If there isn't a turn limit, I wonder if there are any ancient casters in the Magic Kingdom that remember the Titans themselves?


Interesting idea. Clearly possible. But remembering that a year is considered a long time, what would they be like, these ancients? Half-transcendent and mysterious? Bored out of their minds?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby WarFAN » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:07 pm

I think Rob's paving the road for doing a Great Retconning: Maybe in Inner Peace 70 or 71, Charlie is going to wipe out some minds...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby wih » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:07 pm

I think it's far more likely that Jillian, Wanda and company remembers what Charlie is, but can't say it.

Book 2, Text 28 wrote:“He’s a Thinkamancer, right? Kind of? I guess.” Jillian bit her lip. There were things you knew you shouldn’t say, even as you felt the words coming out of your mouth. “I don’t know what he is. But he does Thinkamancy. And I think he was trying to...remove a distraction. From me.”


Reading between the lines, I think she's not saying what he is because she isn't allowed to, but she explicitly is covering herself by not definitively saying that he is a Thinkamancer. There's a distinct note of hesitance in this line. We already know that there can be agreements that are enforced, like Parson's bracer agreement with Charlie. I think it's more likely that this is what's stopping people from talking about Charlie, not a mindwipe.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:17 pm

mortissimus wrote:
If there isn't a turn limit, I wonder if there are any ancient casters in the Magic Kingdom that remember the Titans themselves?


Interesting idea. Clearly possible. But remembering that a year is considered a long time, what would they be like, these ancients? Half-transcendent and mysterious? Bored out of their minds?

Wild speculation time! If there isn't an aging function, there must still be some mechanism by which the Magic Kingdom is depopulated. Other Erfworlders just get killed in battle, so that isn't a problem, but the residents of the Magic Kingdom are pretty safe from war. Without a depopulation method, the Magic Kingdom would be either be a lot bigger or they would be using Dirtamancers to constantly expand it. Neither seems to be the case.

Here is what I propose! It has been said that zero always calls. Maybe, the longer you live, the more likely Fate is going to try to croak you. Even though the Magic Kingdom people don't get killed in battle (unless they choose to take the risk of hiring out to a shaky side of course), they could still get killed in accidents. Sooner or later, Fate ensures that their Luckamancy runs out.

Maybe Charlie is one of the first casters! As the world's greatest Carnymancer, he's been able to postpone his Fate longer than any other. But after his close call, he has grown super paranoid and is trying to avoid giving Fate any holes in his defenses to croak him.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:37 pm

ManaCaster wrote:If there isn't an aging function, there must still be some mechanism by which the Magic Kingdom is depopulated.
The Magic Kingdom is finite and Erfworld is finite, which means there is only a finite amount of upkeep to go around. Whether the barbarians of the Magic Kingdom are farming, hunting, mining, or selling their services to the rest of Erfworld, there's only enough of any of those activities to keep a certain number of casters in the Magic Kingdom. The rest disband from lack of upkeep if they aren't killed in battle while serving outside the Magic Kingdom. Since disbanding from lack of upkeep is inevitable for some casters if no one dies some other way, resources in the Magic Kingdom must be tight and it's not so strange that casters would take risks to earn shmuckers like working for shaky sides and going into battles.

I expect that lack of upkeep in the Magic Kingdom is rarely an issue because all the casters are Erfworlders and so they are probably far more inclined to get shmuckers by going into battle than by farming, even if it means risking their lives, so the croaking rate in the Magic Kingdom is probably higher than you think, even without a magical Fate-monster croaking people. As far as I recall, Hippiemancers are the only casters that we've seen farming.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:45 pm

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:If there isn't an aging function, there must still be some mechanism by which the Magic Kingdom is depopulated.
The Magic Kingdom is finite and Erfworld is finite, which means there is only a finite amount of upkeep to go around. Whether the barbarians of the Magic Kingdom are farming, hunting, mining, or selling their services to the rest of Erfworld, there's only enough of any of those activities to keep a certain number of casters in the Magic Kingdom. The rest disband from lack of upkeep if they aren't killed in battle while serving outside the Magic Kingdom. Since disbanding from lack of upkeep is inevitable for some casters if no one dies some other way, resources in the Magic Kingdom must be tight and it's not so strange that casters would take risks to earn shmuckers like working for shaky sides and going into battles.

I expect that lack of upkeep in the Magic Kingdom is rarely an issue because all the casters are Erfworlders and so they are probably far more inclined to get shmuckers by going into battle than by farming, even if it means risking their lives, so the croaking rate in the Magic Kingdom is probably higher than you think, even without a magical Fate-monster croaking people. As far as I recall, Hippiemancers are the only casters that we've seen farming.

As I said in my post, it should be possible to expand the Magic Kingdom with Dirtamancers. Which would mean more farmland. Which would deal with upkeep.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:57 am

ManaCaster wrote:As I said in my post, it should be possible to expand the Magic Kingdom with Dirtamancers.
The Magic Kingdom seems pretty large. It might even be larger than an ordinary hex, because it is certainly not an ordinary hex. When the population of the Magic Kingdom is small they can ask for large amounts of shmuckers for their services, but when the population gets larger they need to work for smaller sides and fewer shmuckers, and therefore they take more dangerous jobs. At some point there would be more casters croaking on jobs than there would be casters becoming barbarian, since new barbarian casters must be relatively rare. Maybe the Magic Kingdom is large enough that there's never any need for it to be larger.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:02 am

Casters popping is supposedly pretty rare. And it's not every caster that outlives their side in the MK. The influx of casters is unlikely to exceed the rate at which they croak, or turn to new sides.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:14 am

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:As I said in my post, it should be possible to expand the Magic Kingdom with Dirtamancers.
The Magic Kingdom seems pretty large. It might even be larger than an ordinary hex, because it is certainly not an ordinary hex. When the population of the Magic Kingdom is small they can ask for large amounts of shmuckers for their services, but when the population gets larger they need to work for smaller sides and fewer shmuckers, and therefore they take more dangerous jobs. At some point there would be more casters croaking on jobs than there would be casters becoming barbarian, since new barbarian casters must be relatively rare. Maybe the Magic Kingdom is large enough that there's never any need for it to be larger.

You still haven't addressed my point. Why doesn't the farming option work? If dying in battle or not getting enough upkeep from other sides is the only way for casters die, then why hasn't the Magic Kingdom built up a large army of farming Florists over the many centuries?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 069

Postby Smoker » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:26 am

ManaCaster wrote:Why doesn't the farming option work? If dying in battle or not getting enough upkeep from other sides is the only way for casters die, then why hasn't the Magic Kingdom built up a large army of farming Florists over the many centuries?


I assume there is, since Rands are not Shmuckers, they cannot be turned into rations each day as happens for barbarians and treasuries. This means there MUST be another way of generating rations, and that means farming (or similar agrarian pursuits such as foraging or harvesting)

So the question is not about the availability of rations, but the availability of Rands to pay Florists and (perhaps) Dirtamancers for providing said rations.
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