Book 2 - Page 113

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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Roketter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:37 pm

Now he has to. If he does all of this and does NOT attack then he'll give the enemy the initiative. Don't you think the unchecked casters could figure out a way to make the little fort and everyone in it "Explode" in like 15 minutes ?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby CNagy » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:51 pm

dirocyn wrote:What we don't know yet:
Do those bonuses provide a defense against direct combat spells? If so, those spells are just going to bounce off.
Do any of the casters present have area effect spells (fireball)? There is evidence to suggest that leadership bonuses aren't very effective against area attacks.
Does this stack have 18 decrypteds to screen, or does it have 200+?
Can anyone here effectively target leadership even with all the screens? (if so, they would do best to target Wanda first, Artemis second, and Parson third...not that they necessarily know that)
Does Janis have the juice, or the willingness, to stop them again? Are there other hippiemancers here?


Bonuses make units tougher (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-18.png) so it is a fairly safe bet that massive bonuses provide an ample amount of resistance to direct attacks (and unless falling rocks have a mechanism like falling units, this would include resistance to being killed by such a tactic.) Hoboken, for example, deals direct hits (http://www.erfworld.com/2011/11/inner-p ... isode-005/) so it is safe to say that Paron's units are significantly more protected from it than they would be without the bonuses--directly nuking the group is probably the least effective strategy.

What we don't know is if any of those bonuses give any resistance to indirect attacks; status effects, save or die effects, that sort of thing. But for the group currently steps away from Parson's force, that would involve having casters (who are likely inexperienced in close combat) effectively neutralize the leadership units in the face of screening infantry before those combat units close the small distance--at which point, dollars to donuts, any given combat unit could slay any given caster in one pass. There is a reason casters don't typically go out into the field, and I don't expect they'd fare well when the field suddenly comes to them.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Roketter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:54 pm

YRM_DM wrote:
drachefly wrote:Archons are not proper casters. They have spell-like abilities.

Dirocyn, also keep in mind that Antium was felled by an arrow. Artemis did not anticipate needing multiple arrows to fell Sylvia.


Yeah, I just saw in the speculation in the Wiki.

As non-Casters, Archons would likely not benefit from Linking and are likely not permitted in the Magic Kingdom, so they do not belong to the Thinkamancer conspiracy. However, Archons capable of Thinkamancy probably do have at least a limited, perhaps unconscious, ability to perceive and manipulate G Strings, since the manipulation of said strings is the basis of all Thinkamancy abilities. It may be that the Thinkamancers hostility towards Charlie is based on a fear that the growing numbers of Archons which Charlie is working to create will eventually damage the G Strings.


And

Archons with spellcasting capacities are not true Casters: their abilities are referred to as natural magic, for example natural foolamancy.summer-updates-007 External.png However, they use Juice just like normal casters.


But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.



Charlie's a smart guy. If the archons could go trough the portal, he would have his castle and his arkanedisc on the magic kindgom where he would reign over the casters undisputed. Any caster who disagreed would have 10 archons zaping him away. Any erfworld ruler who disagreed, would have 1000 archons coming trough his portal to put him in his place.

Why would charlie go trough all the trouble and intrincacy of becoming a puppet master and mercenary warlord if he could just rule directly, without opposition, forever ?

No, archons cant go trough portals.
There are other, multiple examples of this.
-He could have reinforced jetstone with a swarm of archons in a matter of minutes
-He could have saved unaroyal
-He could have simply killed Stanley, and no one would know how or who did it if he had just sent an invisible foolmancy archon task force.
-He could have snatched Parson from Magic Kingdom after he started the Volcano Eruption.
-He could run his organization much better if his mercenary archons could travel directly into the portals of any side hiring him.
-He coudl establish alliances with different sides to allow use of their portals, allowing him to effectively teleport his archons anywhere, whenever he wanted.
-Parson had some archons too. And he never seemed overly concerned about the possibility of charlie killing him trough his portal.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Deo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:11 pm

YRM_DM wrote:
drachefly wrote:
But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.


Pretty sure Charlie was alluding to his units being near Haggar, not Jetstone, because as mentioned before he did not want Parson to know he was working against him at the time and Archons have the ability to see veiled units.

Link: Charlies talk with Jillian. He states he does not want GK to know he is working against them.
Link: Charlies talk with Sammy. He hints that within a few turns he could overpower the forces of the city of Hagger and destroy the side completely if Sammy doesnt do what he wants.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lipkin » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:36 pm

YRM_DM wrote:
drachefly wrote:Archons are not proper casters. They have spell-like abilities.

Dirocyn, also keep in mind that Antium was felled by an arrow. Artemis did not anticipate needing multiple arrows to fell Sylvia.


Yeah, I just saw in the speculation in the Wiki.

As non-Casters, Archons would likely not benefit from Linking and are likely not permitted in the Magic Kingdom, so they do not belong to the Thinkamancer conspiracy. However, Archons capable of Thinkamancy probably do have at least a limited, perhaps unconscious, ability to perceive and manipulate G Strings, since the manipulation of said strings is the basis of all Thinkamancy abilities. It may be that the Thinkamancers hostility towards Charlie is based on a fear that the growing numbers of Archons which Charlie is working to create will eventually damage the G Strings.


And

Archons with spellcasting capacities are not true Casters: their abilities are referred to as natural magic, for example natural foolamancy.summer-updates-007 External.png However, they use Juice just like normal casters.


But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.

Erfworld used to come out more than once a week? Color me jealous.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:39 pm

Deo wrote:
YRM_DM wrote:
drachefly wrote:
But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.


Pretty sure Charlie was alluding to his units being near Haggar, not Jetstone, because as mentioned before he did not want Parson to know he was working against him at the time and Archons have the ability to see veiled units.

Link: Charlies talk with Jillian. He states he does not want GK to know he is working against them.
Link: Charlies talk with Sammy. He hints that within a few turns he could overpower the forces of the city of Hagger and destroy the side completely if Sammy doesnt do what he wants.

Think he meant back in book one where Charlie suddenly showed up with the required number of Archons to capture GK after asking Parson for a calculation for how many Archons it would take to capture GK.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby multilis » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:45 pm

A type of natural ally are called "witches", likely similar "natural" magic abilities as archons.

Elves had units with natural magic "healing" abilities, similar to healomancer.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby YRM_DM » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:27 pm

drachefly wrote:

Think he meant back in book one where Charlie suddenly showed up with the required number of Archons to capture GK after asking Parson for a calculation for how many Archons it would take to capture GK.


I'm convinced by the case against Archons being able to enter MK.

As to the above. I was referring to both book 1 where Charlie showed up with the exact number needed, and also to the text update where Jillian asked Charlie to assist her with the main land column. Charlie said he didn't want Gobwin Knob to know he was working against them. Jillian said that it wouldn't matter if Stanley knew that, as he hates Charlie anyway, but, Charlie said, "I didn't say Stanley, I said Gobwin Knob".

Charlie blackmailed Haggar into helping instead but, based on the conversation with Jillian, she seemed to feel that Charlie "could help" and Charlie only indicated that he wouldn't because he didn't want Parson to know he was working against him.

What I read sort of implied that Charlie had a force within a move of the capital, but wouldn't reveal it because that would tip Parson off to Charlie being a true enemy.

I forget which text update it was but it's somewhere around where Jillian captures Ansom.

If that's the case, well, Parson already knows, so, Charlie doesn't have to hold back and pretend to be neutral. He can bring in whatever he needs right now to take a basically empty city that doesn't have a chief warlord, croakamancer, or overlord (or most of the troops).
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:35 pm

YRM_DM wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:

Think he meant back in book one where Charlie suddenly showed up with the required number of Archons to capture GK after asking Parson for a calculation for how many Archons it would take to capture GK.


I'm convinced by the case against Archons being able to enter MK.

As to the above. I was referring to both book 1 where Charlie showed up with the exact number needed, and also to the text update where Jillian asked Charlie to assist her with the main land column. Charlie said he didn't want Gobwin Knob to know he was working against them. Jillian said that it wouldn't matter if Stanley knew that, as he hates Charlie anyway, but, Charlie said, "I didn't say Stanley, I said Gobwin Knob".

Charlie blackmailed Haggar into helping instead but, based on the conversation with Jillian, she seemed to feel that Charlie "could help" and Charlie only indicated that he wouldn't because he didn't want Parson to know he was working against him.

What I read sort of implied that Charlie had a force within a move of the capital, but wouldn't reveal it because that would tip Parson off to Charlie being a true enemy.

I forget which text update it was but it's somewhere around where Jillian captures Ansom.

If that's the case, well, Parson already knows, so, Charlie doesn't have to hold back and pretend to be neutral. He can bring in whatever he needs right now to take a basically empty city that doesn't have a chief warlord, croakamancer, or overlord (or most of the troops).

Or, it could just be that he is being Charlie, and doesn't actually have forces in range of either, but wants people to think he does. Then again, given the high move of Archons, and his tendency to spread them out in groups of 3 (especially around combat zones) I would think he could get at least 18 Archons to bear on Spacerock, which given that it has all of about... what was it, 30 troops? That'd almost certainly be enough to take it.

One problem though: It isn't Charlie's turn. And that basically eliminates all possibility of him doing anything to Spacerock before next turn.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:32 pm

Roketter wrote:
YRM_DM wrote:
drachefly wrote:Archons are not proper casters. They have spell-like abilities.

Dirocyn, also keep in mind that Antium was felled by an arrow. Artemis did not anticipate needing multiple arrows to fell Sylvia.


Yeah, I just saw in the speculation in the Wiki.

As non-Casters, Archons would likely not benefit from Linking and are likely not permitted in the Magic Kingdom, so they do not belong to the Thinkamancer conspiracy. However, Archons capable of Thinkamancy probably do have at least a limited, perhaps unconscious, ability to perceive and manipulate G Strings, since the manipulation of said strings is the basis of all Thinkamancy abilities. It may be that the Thinkamancers hostility towards Charlie is based on a fear that the growing numbers of Archons which Charlie is working to create will eventually damage the G Strings.


And

Archons with spellcasting capacities are not true Casters: their abilities are referred to as natural magic, for example natural foolamancy.summer-updates-007 External.png However, they use Juice just like normal casters.


But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.



Charlie's a smart guy. If the archons could go trough the portal, he would have his castle and his arkanedisc on the magic kindgom where he would reign over the casters undisputed. Any caster who disagreed would have 10 archons zaping him away. Any erfworld ruler who disagreed, would have 1000 archons coming trough his portal to put him in his place.

Why would charlie go trough all the trouble and intrincacy of becoming a puppet master and mercenary warlord if he could just rule directly, without opposition, forever ?

No, archons cant go trough portals.
There are other, multiple examples of this.
-He could have reinforced jetstone with a swarm of archons in a matter of minutes
-He could have saved unaroyal
-He could have simply killed Stanley, and no one would know how or who did it if he had just sent an invisible foolmancy archon task force.
-He could have snatched Parson from Magic Kingdom after he started the Volcano Eruption.
-He could run his organization much better if his mercenary archons could travel directly into the portals of any side hiring him.
-He coudl establish alliances with different sides to allow use of their portals, allowing him to effectively teleport his archons anywhere, whenever he wanted.
-Parson had some archons too. And he never seemed overly concerned about the possibility of charlie killing him trough his portal.


My understanding from Book 0 is the Charlie doesn't want to rule directly and unite Erfworld anymore. Granted that's coming out of Olive's mouth and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt. However, until the stories shows that to be a lie I think we can assume Charlie doesn't have an interesting in ruling directly. If he did he might have more than one city. Charlie is playing a very different game.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:51 pm

Roketter wrote:Now he has to. If he does all of this and does NOT attack then he'll give the enemy the initiative. Don't you think the unchecked casters could figure out a way to make the little fort and everyone in it "Explode" in like 15 minutes ?
Don't forget Book 2, Page 90, where the Carnymancers revealed that they are afraid of attacking a warlord. Warlords are a bit like a 25th discipline of caster whose specialty is killing stuff. They are going to be even more reluctant to attack Parson's little army. I think Parson has a really good chance to talk his way out of fighting and negotiate from a position of power because the casters don't want to fight. War in the Magic Kingdom is not an Erfworld tradition like it is everywhere else; the casters are going to be stunned by the possibility and are not going to be eager to fire the first shots.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby joosy » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:05 pm

My bet is that Parson plans on decrypting a good amount of casters and then leading them through Charlie's portal and doing a capital strike there. Whether that plan is successful or not will remain to be seen.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:48 pm

joosy wrote:My bet is that Parson plans on decrypting a good amount of casters and then leading them through Charlie's portal and doing a capitol strike there. Whether that plan is successful or not will remain to be seen.

If it was a success, then they've basically won and there isn't alot for book 3 to cover except how GK steamrolls the rest of Erfworld with a hundred casters and million troops.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:19 pm

dholm wrote:1. "Drops Rocks"? What rocks? The rocks he just blasted into pieces? That's not exactly a worry. As for digging a pit, what good is that gonna do?
That's assuming Sizemore doesn't just counter everything he does.
2. Janice is on Parson's side. There aren't any other Hippiemancers in the vicinity to our knowledge.
3. There is no Turnamancer in the vicinity to our knowledge.
4. If a single Carnymancer could defeat a stack of infantry, they'd be the most valuable casters in direct battle.
5. The Great Minds that Think Alike are on Parson's side.


1. All the rocks that make up the walls and remaining ceiling that Parson et all are standing under. That may not be a worry to you, but if I had forces standing under big heavy pyramid blocks, I'd worry about it.
What good is a pit? Seriously? You're advocating that infantry can close the distance to the casters without resistance (or at least, you're on the coattails of the guy that is) and that casters don't stand a chance, and you can't imagine how a suddenly appearing pit of shallow to very deep dimensions might affect that? Not to mention falling damage and risk of death from a 6 inch to 1 mile fall?
If sizemore does counter everything he does, then sizemore is useless for anything else, including countering any other dirtamancer doing the same thing (I know, I know, we don't know that there's another dirtamancer in the vicinity. We also don't know that there's not).

2. You think Janice is on his side. If he goes all aggro on mancers, how sure are you that she won't act against him? As per your general argument, we have no evidence that she won't.
Don't know of any other hippimancers in the vicinity? So? We also don't know that there's not.

3. So? We also don't know that there's not.

4. Have your read the comic? It seems that you don't have any idea how effective casters are against infantry. A single Hippimancer can stop a group, a single foolamancer can totally redirect them, a single thinkamancers can do who knows what, a single carnymancer can do who know what, etc..Why couldn't carnymancers have an equivalent mass stop/redirect/trick/stun/stats change/etc spell??
I'm utterly confused how someone that's read the comic can argue that casters are helpless against 1 or more infantry. In a hand to hand battle, I'm sure that's true. But you're ignoring the time and distance before hand to hand happens.

5. Sort of, maybe. As you'll recall they were willing to use force against him to keep him from going through the portal.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby ftl » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:49 pm

The one thing that is, admittedly, in favor of a caster losing to an infantry is Jillian's confidence that she could take on even a level 12 caster, alone.

...of course, that didn't end well for her, so her confidence turned out misplaced. But still. Seems like she believed that typically, a warlord should take out a caster 1 on 1. I don't know whether basic infantry would still have that advantage.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby OneHugeTuck » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:04 pm

I can't imagine a moneymancer performing well in ANY kind of combat situation.

Who knows, maybe then can subtract the upkeep payment from a unit(s) and *poof* they depop as if their upkeep hadn't been pain.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lilwik » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:17 pm

OneHugeTuck wrote:I can't imagine a moneymancer performing well in ANY kind of combat situation.
Actually Moneymancy seems like one of the few disciplines that ought to be able to bring soldiers into the Magic Kingdom. Croakamancers can usually only do uncroaked soldiers, but a Moneymancer might to be able to make living soldiers pop at will as long as he has juice and the shmuckers to spend. A Moneymancer's only limitations might be financial.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby ftl » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:18 pm

Based on what we've seen so far, the capabilities of casters are limited primarily by Rob Balder's imagination; he could easily write a caster as either inept at combat or capable of taking out a large number of units with a single spell. We can assume that Parson used the casters he had to their full capability, or something resembling it, so that limits what a croakamancer, thinkamancer, dirtamancer, or foolamancer could do, but we don't know much about other types' limits.

It's a fun exercise to guess how, thematically, a moneymancer could potentially fight:

1) We know that giving money to natural allies to pop more units is natural moneymancy. Maybe a moneymancer can do that? Convert money-in-treasury to combat-capable-units instantly. Possibly at a surcharge.
2) ...or vice versa, maybe a moneymancer can convert enemy units back into schmuckers for their side.
3) Gems! We know moneymancers can make gems out of schmuckers. Maybe a moneymancer can make an explosive gem.
4) If you google 'largest coin in the world', you'll get something that's friggin huge. Maybe a moneymancer can cause one of those to appear and squish an enemy.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:54 pm

I'm fond of the insta-pop idea for the moneymancer, though we've seen nothing to support it. Does that mean a barbarian Moneymancer could start their own cityless side? Actually, come to think of it, that's basically what all barbarians are, isn't it? But a moneymancer might be able to do it somewhat effectively, as they could pop units with schmuckers, then no doubt reduce their upkeep, and could more easily store large amounts of schmuckers as gems for emergencies.

I also like the exploding gems idea. I recall suggesting it somewhere before... over in the 'your games' section I think. Lots of fantasy games revolve around gems being used for magic, especially in the exploding vein, so it doesn't seem like it'd be out of place to see it here. Would be very odd from a ruler perspective to have a caster that literally uses your treasury to fight. Maybe Charlie's plan is to accumulate such a huge treasury that he could hire a master moneymancer to cast a spell that would kill everyone on Erf? :P
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby teratorn » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:31 pm

dirocyn wrote:Does Janis have the juice, or the willingness, to stop them again? Are there other hippiemancers here?


Janis pacified a small group, but she says it's not for long, so I assume it takes considerable juice to stop someone permanently.

We've seen Olive, a level 12, stop an entire hex but she had an artifact. But even assuming they could pull that one, is it an hex effect or does it only target units present there at the time? What if Parson simply converts more croaked into decrypted after the spell is done?
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