Book 2 - Page 113

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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Squall83 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:14 am

twhitt wrote:
Squall83 wrote:What's that curvy line in the last panel, a bit to the right and upwards from... I think it's Wanda's head? At least I think it's her because then she'd be standing symmetric to Sizemore.
You're either talking about the bow being held - almost certainly - by Artemis, or you're talking about a wisp of smoke clearing in the wind. It's tough to say based on your question. The bow is silver/white at the top and red for most of the middle area. The smoke is... gray, or maybe brown, about the same color as the stone.

Thanks, I was talking about Artemis.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Lipkin » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:15 am

Divusmors wrote:Yeah, I had forgotten which of the Jetstone casters got out. I remembered Cubbins being found, but not the jetpack or the dittomancer getting out. Will have to read back through that section of the comic. As for the healomancy, I'd imagine hiring someone would put some level of duty on them during the hire. Otherwise some less honorable side would send a caster or two out to be hired, and then backstab the employer. I can't estimate Sizemore's juice, since the only hint is from Parson asking if he's got it or not, but even one to three defensive barriers would make a big difference on aimed shots.

All of this is just speculation on if it turned into a fight. With his issues about leading fights probably still on his shoulders, and having just barely came out alive from a fight, I wouldn't be eager or quick in any form to get into another spat so soon if I were in his shoes.

That wasn't Cubbins, it was Ace. The other casters made it out with Trem on flying mounts. Cubbins stayed behind and fired off the air defense, they was flown out on the Jetpack's autopilot, so he got clear too. The only Jetstone caster that they have to decrypt is Ace.

As for the hired healer, Janice hired her to heal Parson. She did. Job done.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby dholm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:19 am

OneHugeTuck wrote:
dirocyn wrote:
Deo wrote:Think Parson has a basement filled with even more troops then we are seeing?

Hell, I'd put money on just one caster. Take your pick:

1. Joe Dirt Drops Rocks. Or digs a pit under them. Or turns the ground to mud and they can't move. Or. Or. Or.
2. Any one hippiemancer stops all aggression. Or or or
3. Any one turnamancer does who knows what. Or or or
4. Any one carnymancer does who knows what. Or or or.
5. Any one thinkamancer does who know what including zapping one or more leadership.

1. "Drops Rocks"? What rocks? The rocks he just blasted into pieces? That's not exactly a worry. As for digging a pit, what good is that gonna do?
That's assuming Sizemore doesn't just counter everything he does.
2. Janice is on Parson's side. There aren't any other Hippiemancers in the vicinity to our knowledge.
3. There is no Turnamancer in the vicinity to our knowledge.
4. If a single Carnymancer could defeat a stack of infantry, they'd be the most valuable casters in direct battle.
5. The Great Minds that Think Alike are on Parson's side.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby MonteCristo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:04 am

I don't think Parson is gonna launch an attack... Main reason for thinking so is that he came up with this plan BEFORE wanda decrypted Jack and Ace.

One thing Parson has yet to confirm is whether or not a decrypted caster can still cast. A sneak attack on the magic kingdom could work, but only if Parson can use the fallen casters in his offensive; if the casters come back without any combat ability then they are pretty useless and Parson would be limited to just his troops; and i think the magic kingdom has enough numbers that they could beat the number of troops Parson seems to have available. Afterall while the casters may not have much of a chance to coordinate, every caster at least has a basic ranged attack spell they can use to defend themselves; in addition shockamancers would prove most effective at attacking on the fly, while some like dirtamancers and dollamancers can create golems to fight; heck we've even seen that the florists can quickly transform local plants into units; there's no telling what other ways they can fight. If Parson were to try and take over the magic kingdom, i don't think he would until AFTER confirming that decypted casters maintain their casting abilities. Heck when it comes down to it, the magic kingdom is only really worth taking over if he can keep the casters casting for him. Not to mention making sure the casters maintain their casting ability would be a good way to cut his losses if he realizes he's loosing the fight; if he realizes he's loosing the fight he could atleast get some compensation out of it by taking as many decrypted caster with him when he retreats.

So all in all, i think that if parson was planning a take over of the magic kingdom he would have seen the results of Wanda decrypting Jack and Ace BEFORE he would have ordered the troops to start gathering bodies. Sure he could've assumed that it would work, but that bit of info is a bit too important for him to leave to chance and he's not exactly in a rush. Heck another important bit of info i doubt Parson has is information on everything the magic kingdom has to throw at him... Parson is still a novice when it comes to magic in erfworld and i don't think he knows even a fraction of what the magic kingdom could throw at him. He'll be dealing with multiple masters of every discipline. In a sense, when your enemy is made up of nothing but casters you may have far too many variables to know how to plan a fight
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby LordAcme » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:40 am

cheeseaholic wrote:
LordAcme wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Nope. Stack needs to be directly lead.

"For instance, groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations. Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals. I don't know how melee works without a Warlord in the group. With a Warlord the fight can be directed, or the group can choose not to initiate a fight."


http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_40a


Nope. Unled stacks with leadership in the hex stand fast until ordered. Without leadership, they autoattack.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -05-19.png

Parson's early notes don't have all of the information. Ex. his first Stupidworld meal's tips omitted the fact that flying units could be attacked over forests by forest-capable units. He had to find that out by study.


I think the thing being missed here is the word "contact". Either that or "having" a leader means one being in the same hex.


IGood point on the "having a leader". I can't think of any examples that would clarify things. I'm assuming contact is within attack range, and for infantry that's same hex. The earlier quote is accurate in that unled stacks auto-attack, but there's plenty of evidence that an unled stack in the same hex as a leader obeys orders from the leader.
One example would be Book 2, Artemis as she gave orders to the archery stacks. Those stacks were not led, yet obeyed orders from her and from other warlords all throughout the battle. Adding in Wrigley's story, should all leadership have fallen, those stacks would have fired at any targets of opportunity instead, and without volley either.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby LordAcme » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:10 am

dholm wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:
dirocyn wrote:Hell, I'd put money on just one caster. Take your pick:

1. Joe Dirt Drops Rocks. Or digs a pit under them. Or turns the ground to mud and they can't move. Or. Or. Or.
2. Any one hippiemancer stops all aggression. Or or or
3. Any one turnamancer does who knows what. Or or or
4. Any one carnymancer does who knows what. Or or or.
5. Any one thinkamancer does who know what including zapping one or more leadership.

1. "Drops Rocks"? What rocks? The rocks he just blasted into pieces? That's not exactly a worry. As for digging a pit, what good is that gonna do?
That's assuming Sizemore doesn't just counter everything he does.
2. Janice is on Parson's side. There aren't any other Hippiemancers in the vicinity to our knowledge.
3. There is no Turnamancer in the vicinity to our knowledge.
4. If a single Carnymancer could defeat a stack of infantry, they'd be the most valuable casters in direct battle.
5. The Great Minds that Think Alike are on Parson's side.


Wow, huge assumptions going on. The Great Minds are NOT on Parson's side, they will not stack with him and kill everything at his command. Neither is Janice going to go into killing mode for Parson. We also don't know how much juice Sizemore has left.

And "every caster in the Park can take a shot at him". Welcome to the city of Hoboken.

And lastly, all casters are NOT equal. MK has at least one Master-class in multiple disciplines (Isaac). I think it's safe to presume more.

Parson has no offensive casting capability besides Hoboken. The MK has an unknown quantity and level, but it's safe to presume they have some, and not wise to presume it's weak. His archery force does offset that, but Lookamancy changes that. In fact, for every advantage other than melee and the 'pliers, the MK have a counter.

This is in no way a good situation for Parson. I look forward to seeing why he'd do something this insanely risky.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:19 am

LordAcme wrote:
cheeseaholic wrote:I think the thing being missed here is the word "contact". Either that or "having" a leader means one being in the same hex.


IGood point on the "having a leader". I can't think of any examples that would clarify things. I'm assuming contact is within attack range, and for infantry that's same hex. The earlier quote is accurate in that unled stacks auto-attack, but there's plenty of evidence that an unled stack in the same hex as a leader obeys orders from the leader.
One example would be Book 2, Artemis as she gave orders to the archery stacks. Those stacks were not led, yet obeyed orders from her and from other warlords all throughout the battle. Adding in Wrigley's story, should all leadership have fallen, those stacks would have fired at any targets of opportunity instead, and without volley either.

Well, there is also the battle near Exposition Bridge, where the stabbers held fast until the last leadership in the hex died, at which point they immediately charged.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:22 am

Also, I just remembered that Jack was out of juice when he died, so unless decrypting a caster also restores all their juice (which might be possible, it restores their hits after all), I suppose that the little squad in the pyramid isn't likely to be foolamancy after all.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Zeku » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:38 am

I literally cannot believe that you guys are still arguing that MK can fight this battle. Even if casters were actual units capable of fighting, there's no way you can do anything against a surprise attack. That's what a surprise attack means. It's not a surprise attack at all without the surprise. You get an entire turn or whatever to do what you want. Every enemy unit takes full, unmitigated damage.

And since casters have low health, that's a massacre. Immediately followed by: no one being left in Portal Park. Followed by another mass decryption.

Yes! If, as you say, casters are capable of fighting against ordinary units, then they can respond. (And you literally cannot document that they can fight at all. I can document many cases of casters saying that they cannot and should not ever enter into a fight with a normal unit.) But Parson doesn't have to continue to brute force the issue. He would now have casters under his command, along with normal fighters.

Please...just, please. I know it's unpleasant to think 'hmm maybe I was wrong.' But you're just being silly at this point. At least accept this is a surprise attack, even if you refuse to believe that pure casters always lose to pure fighters.

Edit: let me add a third issue. Casters are intelligent. They're intellectuals. There are countless examples of casters being shy, timid, cowardly, or at least reserved. And they're now facing enemies that are not capable of having low morale. How many of these casters (people like us) are going to say 'oh snap I need to start firing lightning bolts at this zombie invasion force. Hey fellow forum-goers, join me!'
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:00 am

Zeku just stop. I rarely get this mean with my word choice, but you are being a complete idiot and treating everyone else like THEY are the idiots just adds a whole new level to it. There is so much wrong with everything you say it's gone beyond funny, beyond sad, beyond pathetic even. This is the MK, there are no turns so people can react instantly. And even in normal hexes units don't just "stand there and take it" like you suggest in a surprise attack. Casters fight all the time, rarely hand-to-hand, rather from range, and guess what? They're at range right now, far from hand-to-hand range.

It's perfectly valid to think that Parson is going to win, but YOU are believing it for allllll the wrong reasons. So shut up and go home, or actually listen to the people who are on your side but have decent arguments.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:05 am

Mogster2 wrote:
Mikalyaran wrote:Also is this the first time we've heard of a caster being "Qualified"? Whenever folks talk about The Magic Kingdom I've always felt like there wasn't really any political structure we knew of. There should be some structure logically but there very little to indicate what it might be. But now we have this term which seems to hold some particular meaning. I wonder how one becomes qualified.

Personally, I read "Quorum of the Qualified" as "Coalition of the Willing," which was Dubya's half-assed attempt to legitimize the US invasion of Iraq. Not totally sure what Jojo means in panel 7 tho'.

Also, I haven't seen the movie Joe Dirt, but does he say "Git 'r done"? I've only heard that from Larry the Cable Guy.


I think being Qualified might have something to do with being a permanent resident of the magic kingdom. Like being a citizen there with certain rights and responsibilities. There must be laws in the MK beyond just the enforcement of neutrality for Jojo to mention them. I don't think someone whose whole schtickt is rigging the rules wouldn't make up laws, meaning the idea of an illegal structure here, to get their way. You've got to know the system to abuse it.

I like Git' r done as a dirtamancy spell. It may not be Joe Dirt's line but I think it fits nicely here.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby drachefly » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:09 am

I was tossing around ideas in my head of how this could be a veil cast by Isaac after he read a proposal by Parson that he thought was 'interesting'. But there are so many casters around, and I'd expect carnymancers to be fairly veil-piercing, that I doubt it.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby dholm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:16 am

LordAcme wrote:
dholm wrote:
OneHugeTuck wrote:Hell, I'd put money on just one caster. Take your pick:

1. Joe Dirt Drops Rocks. Or digs a pit under them. Or turns the ground to mud and they can't move. Or. Or. Or.
2. Any one hippiemancer stops all aggression. Or or or
3. Any one turnamancer does who knows what. Or or or
4. Any one carnymancer does who knows what. Or or or.
5. Any one thinkamancer does who know what including zapping one or more leadership.

1. "Drops Rocks"? What rocks? The rocks he just blasted into pieces? That's not exactly a worry. As for digging a pit, what good is that gonna do?
That's assuming Sizemore doesn't just counter everything he does.
2. Janice is on Parson's side. There aren't any other Hippiemancers in the vicinity to our knowledge.
3. There is no Turnamancer in the vicinity to our knowledge.
4. If a single Carnymancer could defeat a stack of infantry, they'd be the most valuable casters in direct battle.
5. The Great Minds that Think Alike are on Parson's side.


Wow, huge assumptions going on. The Great Minds are NOT on Parson's side, they will not stack with him and kill everything at his command.

....

I never said they would start killing for Parson. I was saying they are not likely to fight AGAINST him. OneHugeTuck was saying a single caster could defeat Parson's force, which is ridiculous on the face of it.

LordAcme wrote:And "every caster in the Park can take a shot at him". Welcome to the city of Hoboken.

Uh, no, they can't. The vast majority of casters don't even know he's there!

LordAcme wrote:And lastly, all casters are NOT equal. MK has at least one Master-class in multiple disciplines (Isaac). I think it's safe to presume more.

Sure. So what? They haven't been shown on-screen. If there's a multiple discpline Master-class caster around the portal, I think we'd have heard of it by now.

LordAcme wrote:Parson has no offensive casting capability besides Hoboken.

Parson hasn't shown any casting capability aside from an ability to suddenly understand a scroll (which immediately left him when he was incapacitated). Whether he can cast Hoboken at all is up in the air.

LordAcme wrote:The MK has an unknown quantity and level, but it's safe to presume they have some, and not wise to presume it's weak. His archery force does offset that, but Lookamancy changes that. In fact, for every advantage other than melee and the 'pliers, the MK have a counter.

You said I was making "huge assumptions", yet you are the one insisting that all casters are somehow instantaneously available and willing to fight for the Magic Kingdom against Parson. If they aren't, the Magic Kingdom does not necessarily have any of those "counters" you speak of.

In the immediate situation, the only relevant casters are those in the immediate vicinity of Portal Park, and more directly, those around Gobwin Knob's portal.

If it becomes a battle, then the rest of the Magic Kingdom may unite and go against Parson, in which case the unknown potential of the casters becomes important. But so far, it isn't.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby drachefly » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:02 am

Parson likely doesn't know Hoboken. It was stated to be something most casters pop with, but he's extremely atypical. I suspect he has capacity to learn, but very little magical ability presently.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby dirocyn » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:06 am

I'm thinking most of the casters don't have direct combat spells, and most of them don't have many hits. The evidence we have is countless examples of people saying casters don't belong in combat. Plus Jack (a high level foolamancer), disabled by a couple of arrows, and Punxatawney Phil knocked on his butt by a single punch. Oh, and there's that: when predictamancers get into a fight with Carnies, it's a fistfight. The Carnies threw a spell or two, but those were not deadly. We have no evidence of a thinkamancer taking out multiple enemies with a single action. Sizemore's traps made deadly area effects, but those were set up ahead of time--maybe over hundreds of turns. Collapsing buildings on enemy forces took out a few, back in the battle for Gobwin Knob, but was largely ineffective.

Counter-evidence: Wanda has a base attack of 6 or more (the weakest in that stack of mostly heavies back in text update 33), which is more than double your average infantry and perhaps on par with a low level heavy--probably higher than Parson. Which just goes to show, level matters--and we know some of these casters (Isaac for one) are high level. We saw Cubbins take out several (3?) Archons with "pop a cap." Note, that may have included the tower defenses and those archons had lost their leadership, croakmancer, and artifact bonuses and may not have even been stacked up.

If Parson has stacked up so as to maximize bonuses, the decrypted will have +3 from Parson, +8 from Artemis, +8 from Wanda, their stack bonus (+8?) and an attuned artifact bonus that was described as "huge," possibly +7. At most, the casters can stack up. If the decrypted are able to engage the casters, they will cut through like a lightsaber through butter.

What we don't know yet:
Do those bonuses provide a defense against direct combat spells? If so, those spells are just going to bounce off.
Do any of the casters present have area effect spells (fireball)? There is evidence to suggest that leadership bonuses aren't very effective against area attacks.
Does this stack have 18 decrypteds to screen, or does it have 200+?
Can anyone here effectively target leadership even with all the screens? (if so, they would do best to target Wanda first, Artemis second, and Parson third...not that they necessarily know that)
Does Janis have the juice, or the willingness, to stop them again? Are there other hippiemancers here?
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby YRM_DM » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:08 pm

Erfworld started in December of 2006. Charlie started messing with Parson not long after that.

Archons are considered casters right?

Charlie has nothing but Archons.

If Parsons attacks Magic Kingdom, couldn't Charlie just send all his archons through the portal and wipe the floor with Parsons? Whatever they've got in their stack, it's no match for hundreds of archons.

Even if that's not the case, Charlie could just call in an equation, and tell his allies how many casters to also organize and send through.

---

And even if Archons aren't able to enter MK. Couldn't they just reveal themselves and take the new capital? Jillian hinted in her interactions with Charlie that he had a hidden large force nearby that he could bring to bear if he didn't mind revealing to GK that he was working against them.

At this point, I don't see how Charlie doesn't just "win it all" right here if he wants to. He's got too much power, too much metagaming, too much mobility, too much intelligence, and more allies.

I'd love to be wrong, but, I can see Parsons winning in MK only until Charlie either
A - Attacks MK with Archons
B - Attacks Spacerock with Archons

He could literally "show up" at Gobwin Knob with just enough Archons to take the garrison. Why could he not do that now to the "new capital"?

It's odd that Parsons doesn't even seem to be considering that.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby drachefly » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:20 pm

Archons are not proper casters. They have spell-like abilities.

Dirocyn, also keep in mind that Antium was felled by an arrow. Artemis did not anticipate needing multiple arrows to fell Sylvia.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby Roketter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:30 pm

He's only going to fight against the carnimancers, and there are less than 10 of them. he has 2 casters of his own, 2 more that he's about to decrypt, 300 infantary and 34 knights. Not saying he can take the whole magic kingdom, but id's say theres very good chances gobwin knob will soon have their own carnimancer squad.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby bladestorm » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:31 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Then again, if there really is fighting, which I still doubt, the Carnymancers would almost certainly be the first targets.

From the back of the stack, Parson's voice booms, "Not all of you. Just him, and anyone that stands between me and him.." With a heavy hand, he points directly at Jojo. An eight-foot wide walkway forms among the gathered casters, Parson at one end, Jojo at the other. The Knight move forward like a pack of hound intent upon ripping a cornered fox apart.
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Re: Book 2 - Page 113

Postby YRM_DM » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:32 pm

drachefly wrote:Archons are not proper casters. They have spell-like abilities.

Dirocyn, also keep in mind that Antium was felled by an arrow. Artemis did not anticipate needing multiple arrows to fell Sylvia.


Yeah, I just saw in the speculation in the Wiki.

As non-Casters, Archons would likely not benefit from Linking and are likely not permitted in the Magic Kingdom, so they do not belong to the Thinkamancer conspiracy. However, Archons capable of Thinkamancy probably do have at least a limited, perhaps unconscious, ability to perceive and manipulate G Strings, since the manipulation of said strings is the basis of all Thinkamancy abilities. It may be that the Thinkamancers hostility towards Charlie is based on a fear that the growing numbers of Archons which Charlie is working to create will eventually damage the G Strings.


And

Archons with spellcasting capacities are not true Casters: their abilities are referred to as natural magic, for example natural foolamancy.summer-updates-007 External.png However, they use Juice just like normal casters.


But that's still not 100% that they can't enter MK. If they can't, they can still retake the new capital if they're within range, right now, with not much there to defend it.

I am so... SO looking forward to getting back to a schedule with more than one update per week. Really enjoying this comic.
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