Book 2 – Page 112

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Goshen » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:26 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:In light of those facts its not too hard to argue that Charlie is Parson's true enemy and the only one he needs to be concerned with really.


Yes, for all the reasons stated.

Also, Jetstone is more likely to lick their wounds at this point than be a threat to GK.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Whispri » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:26 pm

The trouble with Jetstone is that they'll persuade other Sides to wage war upon Gobwin Knob. Not that Charlie isn't Parson's most dangerous enemy, but Jetstone is the keystone of the RCC II.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Based on Parson promoting himself mid turn though, I'd assume it gives him move. I'm not sure exactly -why- he promoted himself though. He can go through the portal to GK and back without problems without move, but maybe going to Jetstone counts as a move, only your home portal is move free. Actually, come to think of it, he promoted himself off turn from a garrison unit to a regular unit. That raises interesting questions. If it did give him move, that means that movement at night -is- possible, but only for units promoted from garrison. If not, then it raises the question of why he bothered promoting himself in the first place, since he wouldn't have gained move, which is the only known benefit of being promoted from garrison... So either it gives move or Parson did something entirely pointless. And given that this is Parson we're talking about.... yeah.

Well being a field unit would allow him to leave Spacerock the next turn. It's one thing to be stuck in the Capital... Also, his being a garrison unit was one of the objections Maggie was making to his decision to join the fighting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:52 pm

Suppose that's true, it could be that he just wanted to be able to move again next turn and wouldn't get the move unless he promoted himself now, though it still makes Maggie's argument about being a garrison unit somewhat odd. Of course, it could have been academic as opposed to strictly required/forbidden, which seems to be the case for alot of the tactics Parson has used so far. It isn't that casters -can't- go through a portal, it is just that they -don't-. It isn't that garrison units can't attack an enemy capital, it is just that they... kinda don't generally get there.

And yeah, Jetstone is more a problem for political reasons than direct threat ones. That and they will become a direct threat if allowed to lick their wounds and build back up.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby LordAcme » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:45 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Suppose that's true, it could be that he just wanted to be able to move again next turn and wouldn't get the move unless he promoted himself now, though it still makes Maggie's argument about being a garrison unit somewhat odd. Of course, it could have been academic as opposed to strictly required/forbidden, which seems to be the case for alot of the tactics Parson has used so far. It isn't that casters -can't- go through a portal, it is just that they -don't-. It isn't that garrison units can't attack an enemy capital, it is just that they... kinda don't generally get there.

And yeah, Jetstone is more a problem for political reasons than direct threat ones. That and they will become a direct threat if allowed to lick their wounds and build back up.


Actually garrison units have 0 move. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg. So they cannot leave their city hex (although I don't know if that counts for / in the MK).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:30 pm

Yeah, they have 0 move, but going through a portal to or from MK doesn't take move, as demonstrated by Jack, Wanda, and Maggie all going through off turn, as well as Parson when he was still a garrison unit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Mikalyaran » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:19 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Ah, couldn't quite remember how the zones were split up. I knew there was some movement allowed because Wanda wasn't stuck in the atrium any more.

Based on Parson promoting himself mid turn though, I'd assume it gives him move. I'm not sure exactly -why- he promoted himself though. He can go through the portal to GK and back without problems without move, but maybe going to Jetstone counts as a move, only your home portal is move free. Actually, come to think of it, he promoted himself off turn from a garrison unit to a regular unit. That raises interesting questions. If it did give him move, that means that movement at night -is- possible, but only for units promoted from garrison. If not, then it raises the question of why he bothered promoting himself in the first place, since he wouldn't have gained move, which is the only known benefit of being promoted from garrison... So either it gives move or Parson did something entirely pointless. And given that this is Parson we're talking about.... yeah.


I think a garrison unit definitely wouldn't have been able to go to Spacerock.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby ftl » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:45 pm

Maybe he just didn't want to risk it. I mean, who knows if going from your portal to the MK to an enemy portal would take move? It's never done, who knows if he'd run into an invisible barrier on his way in to Spacerock. Well, we know now, but he didn't. Safer just to promote yourself, especially since you're going to need to do that anyway to lead the army from Spacerock on.

Hmm, it was off-turn anyway, so maybe he wouldn't have had move anyway...

Or maybe you need to be in the capitol to promote? Then he'd think he needed to promote himself before going to Spacerock.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Aquillion » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:32 am

I can see how he might not have wanted to risk being unable to enter the other side's portal due to some obscure rule about garrison units. Remember, the plan was that he would dash there at a full run before anyone had a chance to react -- if he tried to enter Jetstone's portal and bounced off, he'd be in trouble and might not have time to promote himself before the casters attacked him. (He might bounce off not because of move, because we know he wouldn't have one anyway, but because garrison units just can't enter another hex by any means; the MK might not count as a hex.)

That's a lot of 'mights', I guess. It could just be that he was tired of being a garrison unit and wanted an excuse to promote himself.

EDIT: Also, one problem with Parson using the portals to attack with decrypted. The decrypted probably cannot leave the MK if decrypted there. So to attack, he'd have to carry them through -- which would be very difficult, since they'd have to be carried past potentially hostile casters, then carried into the portal to be decrypted there. It just doesn't seem feasible without some other trick to make it work.

This assumes it's even feasible to enter the portal without controlling the other side. Parson went to Jetstone, but only after his side controlled the zone he was entering. It's possible that someone who enters a portal without seizing the other side would immediately be considered captured.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:33 am

Aquillion wrote:EDIT: Also, one problem with Parson using the portals to attack with decrypted. The decrypted probably cannot leave the MK if decrypted there. So to attack, he'd have to carry them through -- which would be very difficult, since they'd have to be carried past potentially hostile casters, then carried into the portal to be decrypted there. It just doesn't seem feasible without some other trick to make it work.


Jack Veils himself and Maggie. Maggie mind locks the guards in the room. Portal room is secure, so Wanda steps in. Sizemore makes a conveyer belt all the way to the portal and Parson steps half and half, giving a Chief Warlord bonus while having a foot stil inside the Magic Kingdom, sliding the corpses in from the conveyer belt. Wanda Decrypts high value units to make a beachhead, and there is a new Stabber in the room every few seconds. And thus the invasion becomes the rolling boulder that Antium described. And no interference from other casters if Sizemore has wrapped a proper fortification around the enemy portal.

There is a flaw to this plan. If there is a Croakamancer present in Portal Park, she would be able to see the corpses, and raise them before they get into the portal. Which would leave a beach head group without any back up, to ultimately be crushed. Or if the Side has two or more capitols and the king is in the seat of power.

But caught by surprise, Parson has all the tools required to make such a tactic work.

EDIT:
You know what, this tactic would totally work against Jillian, since she is ALWAYS away from her capitol. In fact, it may work this round, or next round. Who knows?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Goshen » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:49 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:Jack Veils himself and Maggie. Maggie mind locks the guards in the room. Portal room is secure, so Wanda steps in. Sizemore makes a conveyer belt all the way to the portal and Parson steps half and half, giving a Chief Warlord bonus while having a foot stil inside the Magic Kingdom, sliding the corpses in from the conveyer belt. Wanda Decrypts high value units to make a beachhead, and there is a new Stabber in the room every few seconds. And thus the invasion becomes the rolling boulder that Antium described. And no interference from other casters if Sizemore has wrapped a proper fortification around the enemy portal.


The plan sense, but it depends utterly on Maggie being able to do a long-distance "mind lock" on the guards. It's plausible, but I've not seen it in Erfworld. Something like that would have to be pretty powerful, so I guess she'd have to spend a lot of juice.

Instead, maybe jack could step through the portal with a couple of heavies, all veiled to look like someone the guards would expect. That would require good intel, but Maggie could help gather that more plausibly.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Talisid » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:20 pm

Althernai wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I think the problem with razing Spacerock is that if they did that, the order of events would likely be:
1) GK looses it's capital.
2) GK side is defeated because it has lost its capital.
3) All GK cities go Barbarian

Are you sure that this is what happens when a capital is conquered or destroyed? Before Charlie's intervention, it did not seem like Slately was thinking of going to the throne room to change capitals. If the side ended when the capital was captured, that should have been his first order of business -- escaping is not worth much if they lose all of their cities in the process. Instead, he only changed capitals to trap Parson. It's entirely possible that sides which have a reserve city on a capital site automatically transition to it if something happens to their capital.


Before Charlie's intervention they had no money to create an heir and without that, and the King-Clone ready to disappear, there's no purpose to having an alternate capital site because the side ends when the king is croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:52 pm

Goshen wrote:
BakaGrappler wrote:Jack Veils himself and Maggie. Maggie mind locks the guards in the room. Portal room is secure, so Wanda steps in. Sizemore makes a conveyer belt all the way to the portal and Parson steps half and half, giving a Chief Warlord bonus while having a foot stil inside the Magic Kingdom, sliding the corpses in from the conveyer belt. Wanda Decrypts high value units to make a beachhead, and there is a new Stabber in the room every few seconds. And thus the invasion becomes the rolling boulder that Antium described. And no interference from other casters if Sizemore has wrapped a proper fortification around the enemy portal.


The plan sense, but it depends utterly on Maggie being able to do a long-distance "mind lock" on the guards. It's plausible, but I've not seen it in Erfworld.



You misunderstand. Maggie and Jack are standing next to each other, on the other side of the portal, and she mind locks the people she can see who are guarding the portal. The people she can see, and who can see the portal. Which opens a window for all the rest of the plan to come together.

What, did you think Maggie was mind locking from the other side of the portal, in the MK?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby The_Rats » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:55 am

BakaGrappler wrote:
Aquillion wrote:EDIT: Also, one problem with Parson using the portals to attack with decrypted. The decrypted probably cannot leave the MK if decrypted there. So to attack, he'd have to carry them through -- which would be very difficult, since they'd have to be carried past potentially hostile casters, then carried into the portal to be decrypted there. It just doesn't seem feasible without some other trick to make it work.


Jack Veils himself and Maggie. Maggie mind locks the guards in the room. Portal room is secure, so Wanda steps in. Sizemore makes a conveyer belt all the way to the portal and Parson steps half and half, giving a Chief Warlord bonus while having a foot stil inside the Magic Kingdom, sliding the corpses in from the conveyer belt. Wanda Decrypts high value units to make a beachhead, and there is a new Stabber in the room every few seconds. And thus the invasion becomes the rolling boulder that Antium described. And no interference from other casters if Sizemore has wrapped a proper fortification around the enemy portal.

There is a flaw to this plan. If there is a Croakamancer present in Portal Park, she would be able to see the corpses, and raise them before they get into the portal. Which would leave a beach head group without any back up, to ultimately be crushed. Or if the Side has two or more capitols and the king is in the seat of power.

But caught by surprise, Parson has all the tools required to make such a tactic work.

EDIT:
You know what, this tactic would totally work against Jillian, since she is ALWAYS away from her capitol. In fact, it may work this round, or next round. Who knows?


Guys...
okay 1st... hi, long time lurker, and recently backer, new forum member, hi to all :)

the tunnel... srsly the tunnel, you know the one that stand between Gobwin Knob portal location (currently disabled) and spacerock portal location? wich is curently covered with a pyramid with no window that maybe only TGMTTA can see thru?

many options here, for starter, it can be used to transport dead body to any portal, along with casters IF sizemore know what direction to dig like say... a thinkamancer walking above ground above him.

second, if all the dead body were sent back thru portal, and we left any unit capable of starting a side (warlord?) behind, could you could start a new side (wich will probably mean capture of the tresury by new side though)? GK get its portal back, and get a moneymancer to transform tresury into gem? and send it back to Stanley through the tunnel?

having a dirtamancer in Portal Park open a lot of tactical avenues
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby bpzinn » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:36 am

The_Rats wrote:Guys...
okay 1st... hi, long time lurker, and recently backer, new forum member, hi to all :)

the tunnel... srsly the tunnel, you know the one that stand between Gobwin Knob portal location (currently disabled) and spacerock portal location? wich is curently covered with a pyramid with no window that maybe only TGMTTA can see thru?

many options here, for starter, it can be used to transport dead body to any portal, along with casters IF sizemore know what direction to dig like say... a thinkamancer walking above ground above him.

second, if all the dead body were sent back thru portal, and we left any unit capable of starting a side (warlord?) behind, could you could start a new side (wich will probably mean capture of the tresury by new side though)? GK get its portal back, and get a moneymancer to transform tresury into gem? and send it back to Stanley through the tunnel?

having a dirtamancer in Portal Park open a lot of tactical avenues


Hello Ratso, welcome to the forums!

Personally, I would like to see Parson start a new side also, but I do not think it is going to happen right now; Moving corpses into the magic kingdom would not be necessary to pull it off.

But assuming it did happen, the Treasury would not be a problem. Firstly, apparently Parson spent a good chunk of it already this turn. Secondly, Gobwin Knob has a replenished Gem mine. Nothing has been said about this either way, but I am assuming there is a (large) stash of gems in GK. This is because gems convert to smuckers only one way without a Moneymancer, which GK lacks. And due to decrypted forces, the has less upkeep costs (and need for smuckers) than the average side. So only converting the gems as and when they are needed would have been the smart thing to do.

So when/if Spacerock was captured by Parson to spin a new side and the GK Capital reverted as speculated, then the (empty) treasury could be fed some gems from the GK mine stash to fill it. And then Wanda could come through the portal and turn to Parson and decrypt all the corpses as Parson units, and if they were really lucky, new sides have later turns, so When the RCCII ends turn, Wanda, Parson, and all the new decrypted units get a turn. And after the turn is over, if Wanda is still at Spacerock, she can portal walk back to GK and turn back to Stanley.

But like I said, does not look like it is going to happen. So I am going to have to wait to see if any hypothetical Heir Parson ordered popped would be royal or not...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:40 am

1. Wanda believes the Tools are fated to be united. She wouldn't leave Stanley for Parson.

2. If any caster were to turn to Parson, it would be Sizemore. While Sizemore is uncomfortable with Parson's shaking up of the mores of Erf, I think he respects Parson's goals. And out of all the casters, Parson needs Sizemore the most. Sizemore is the only caster that doesn't have ulterior motives. He's the only caster Parson can trust.

On the topic of Sizemore, just a stray thought I've been having. Anyone else find it weird that Sizemore was able to materialize wooden beams when he made the tunnel through the MK? I guess I had never given much thought to what fell under the purview of Dirtamancy. Building or upgrading a city doesn't deal with just stone and dirt, but cloth, wood, metal, and other materials. Could the revelation that Sizemore needs to reach master class be that everything is the same stuff, and it all falls under Dirtamancy?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Smoker » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:24 am

Just saying how happy I am to get a good look at Ace's eyes. Not that I ever believed he was alive, but in a world where characters are all misinformed liars, it's good to have proof that nobody can refute.

I feel like my life has a little bit more order in it now.

Oh no wait. Could it be foolamancy?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:33 am

Quick response to an earlier point. It's incorrect to assume that only the GMTTA can see through the pyramid. Isaac can presumably see in because he's a full blown Eyemancer. His primary class is Thinkamancy but he also has levels in Fool- and Look-amancies. So I would assume he's using Lookamancy to see inside. Meaning he may be the only caster PRESENT who can see in, but any other Lookamamcer walking by could take a peek also.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:27 pm

Lipkin wrote:
On the topic of Sizemore, just a stray thought I've been having. Anyone else find it weird that Sizemore was able to materialize wooden beams when he made the tunnel through the MK? I guess I had never given much thought to what fell under the purview of Dirtamancy. Building or upgrading a city doesn't deal with just stone and dirt, but cloth, wood, metal, and other materials. Could the revelation that Sizemore needs to reach master class be that everything is the same stuff, and it all falls under Dirtamancy?

Fairly sure that has already been established as a basic idea that everyone knows. Kind of like how we know that all stuff in our world is also made of the same things (protons neutrons and electrons).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby bpzinn » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:14 pm

Lipkin wrote:1. Wanda believes the Tools are fated to be united. She wouldn't leave Stanley for Parson.

2. If any caster were to turn to Parson, it would be Sizemore. While Sizemore is uncomfortable with Parson's shaking up of the mores of Erf, I think he respects Parson's goals. And out of all the casters, Parson needs Sizemore the most. Sizemore is the only caster that doesn't have ulterior motives. He's the only caster Parson can trust.

On the topic of Sizemore, just a stray thought I've been having. Anyone else find it weird that Sizemore was able to materialize wooden beams when he made the tunnel through the MK? I guess I had never given much thought to what fell under the purview of Dirtamancy. Building or upgrading a city doesn't deal with just stone and dirt, but cloth, wood, metal, and other materials. Could the revelation that Sizemore needs to reach master class be that everything is the same stuff, and it all falls under Dirtamancy?


I do not think the word "united" means what you think it does. Under your definition of "United" either Charley or Stanley would eventually need to stop being the ruler, so all the attuned Tool wielders could be on the same side. Nothing this far presented in the comics indicates this is a necessary condition for the unity Wanda speaks of. In the same way the tools being united does not mean they should stay in the same hex forever and ever. You can have an effective alliance without entering into an erfworld Alliance (and having all your Turns at the same time) you can be on the same side without being on the same Side. We know from book Zero that you can have more than one turn on the same day. I see the Toolists exploiting that eventually, and Wanda would be more scary as a uber caster with 2+ turns every day than as a mere ruler.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:45 pm

Lipkin wrote:If any caster were to turn to Parson, it would be Sizemore.
Sizemore's relationship with Parson is a bit tricky. We all recognize that Parson is a great guy and maybe Sizemore does too, but Sizemore is a pacifist and that makes him conflicted about almost everything that happens in Erfworld. See Book 1, Page 102.

Lipkin wrote:While Sizemore is uncomfortable with Parson's shaking up of the mores of Erf, I think he respects Parson's goals.
Sizemore is uncomfortable with the killing, and the killing is one of those mores of Erfworld. Sizemore would love to have that shaken up, but Parson doesn't seem to be doing that yet, even though it's clear that Parson would like to stop the killing. Sizemore must be aware that Parson doesn't like killing, but that doesn't change the fact that Parson kills people in vast quantities.

Lipkin wrote:Anyone else find it weird that Sizemore was able to materialize wooden beams when he made the tunnel through the MK?
It's been made very clear that "Dirtamancy" is just a name, not a definition for the discipline. Sizemore is called a Dirtamancer because that is a label that roughly fits most of what he does, but everyone on Erfworld knows that Dirtamancers work with more than just dirt; Dirtamancers can create whole cities.

I strongly suspect that none of the names of the disciplines cover all that a caster of that discipline can do. Dollamancers do much more than make dolls. The only thing that the names of the disciplines tell us is what each discipline is most famous for doing. If we want to define the disciplines then our best strategy is to look at the relationships between disciplines because that is where we have the most plentiful clues. What does Dirtamancy have in common with the other Erf-axis disciplines? What does Stuffamancy have in common with the three other Matter-axis classes: Hippiemancy, Naughtymancy, and Stagemancy? Also, what does Stuffamancy have in common with the other single-element classes: Hocus Pocus and Spookism?

I'm sure that the axes of each discipline define the discipline, somehow. The axes are not mere incidental features because no two disciplines share the same set of axes, and every combination of axes is represented by a discipline. The best evidence of all is Retconjuration, which is a discipline that only exists to fill a hole in the grid. No Erfworlder has ever met a Retconjuror, but they know that the discipline must exist theoretically and they must even have ideas about what Retconjuration can do, apparently just from knowing the hole that it needs to fill. See Book 0, Page 11.

It is left to us to reverse engineer precise definitions for each of the six axes and work out rules for how axes are combined to form classes and disciplines. Once we have that, all of the secrets of magic will be revealed.

I find the difference between Stagemancy and Clevermancy especially interesting, and most interesting of all is Hat Magic. If we knew why {Life, Motion, Matter, Erf} leads to hats then I think most other mysteries would be solved. Perhaps Stagemancy deals with so many elements that on the Erf axis the Stagemancer can only control it by focusing his juice into a partially enclosed space that happens to be about the size of a hat. That would imply that Hat Magic can be done with any partial enclosure about that size, like sacks and small boxes, and the more skilled a Hat Magician becomes, the bigger the enclosure can be. Perhaps a Master Stagemancer can create boxes that transmit units the way that magic hats transmit small objects.
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