Book 2 – Page 108

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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Lipkin » Thu May 02, 2013 9:03 am

Doctor Foreman wrote:
Lipkin wrote:Sizemore, a filthy rich rock star, is able to keep the side funded until they are able to start making bank.


The thing is, Sizemore is rich in Rands, while normal Erfworld economics is dependent on Schmuckers. As far as I can tell Rands exist for the purpose of being immune to Moneymancy and therefore preventing Moneymancers from gaming the system. Having Rands be exchangeable at a fixed rate for Schmuckers or giving them "real-world" applicability outside the Magic Kingdom would seem to negate that.

Is there anything preventing Sizemore from paying rands for the services of a Moneymancer in the MK?

And seeing as how Sizemore is largely responsible for harvesting the gems of GK, I don't think it's unlikely his entire fortune isn't rands.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby arin » Thu May 02, 2013 9:07 am

Lipkin wrote:Parson would need to be the only unit in Spacerock.


Actually, now that you make me defend it, I realize there's concrete evidence to refute that in Book 0, Episode 64. King Banhammer and all Faq units are barbarians when the pre-trial events in Efbaum go off.

Jillian wrote:Olive had left the garrison. That was the only explanation. After Jillian destroyed the golems, Orwell must have been the only Haffaton unit in Efbaum’s garrison. Therefore, when the Overlady fled to the airspace, the city fell to Faq.


So barbarians CAN claim a new capital just through uncontested control of a garrison.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby drachefly » Thu May 02, 2013 9:24 am

Airspace may not be a proper city zone.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Thu May 02, 2013 10:06 am

Drach, Airspace, Outer Walls, and Tunnel are all city zones of GK. Airspace is the only way to attack Tower. It's all in the Book 1 Klogs.

______________________________

The "Order Antium to split Side and take Jetstone" plan seems to fail, too.

We are used to a Side capturing a city. It's splitting hairs, but Charlie says:
Charlie wrote:If you go barbarian to found a Side, then you can't claim a capital if there are any units of another Side there.


1) He says in "city", not in "garrison".
2) He says of "another Side", not "any enemy side".

This puts paid to the "Set Antium up as Ruler" theory, too. With a limit of "city" instead of garrison, Parson can't order units into Outer Walls to permit Side capture.

And Alliance tricks won't work. The city has to be empty of all but Barbarians aligned with you.

___________________________

So, what have we got? There's an Inferno that has to be put out. According to Theory, only a Dirtamancer can save it now. We need to get Sizemore in. Charlie blocks Comms, but Parson got his request through before they shut off.

1) Maggie is with the GMTTA, and is aware of the Comms problem. The GMTTA might break his hold with a Tri-mancer Master Class Thinkamancer link. Might.

2) With Comms known down, Stanley's hatred of Charlie may make him realize Charlie doesn't want the Capital switch, so he might do it just to piss him off. That may have to wait for Maggie to literally run to Stanley and tell him.

As for the Scroll, there is no way it will work on a non-living entity like the Inferno. That would be so totally random, I'd stop reading the comic. I might just go throw up, it disgusts me that much.

So, let's jump to Meta-thinking.

1) There's a new artist for Book 3.
2) Parson is the Protagonist, and should be responsible for his own fate.

Parson needs to survive. We have a Book 3 coming. So there is a way out.

Parson looks Rules-locked -- an Absolute Rule that he must die. He has no Casters to get creative with. All Units die in INferno. He can't use the Tonton trick, because decrypted dwagons go to dust. The river nearby appears to be outside the City hex, so the Hercules-stable trick doesn't work.

The one trick I know should work, but due to the absoluteness of the Inferno rule may not is back-burning.

In back-burning, firefighters will start a fire ahead of a blaze in order to create a region where there is no fuel, when the uncontrolled fire arrives later. It is used in major city fires, too, thought rarely. Often they'll just knock buildings down to create a low region, which stops fire spreading by bringing it down out of the wind in that region. Unfortunately, this has less success because city fires can jump a long way, and they don't want to knock down a lot of houses unnecessarily.

Using the reds, Parson could totally annihilate a small region, move himself and others inside, lay the reds down as a wall, and maybe survive the blaze. Parson doesn't need to worry about local civilians' houses, so he can cast a wide burn.

This would test the absoluteness of the rule system in Erfworld. Can Physics trump the "game" rules that demand Parson's death? Wil the very rock itself burn without fuel in order to ensure Inferno remains absolute?

It should satisfy everyone. It's outside-the-box thinking. It throws back in the face of the world creators. It's an active solution. And Parson should be aware of the technique.

It does not help Parson survive the onslaught if Charlie decides to flood him with Archons next Turn, but we may be asking too much of Parson to solve everything at once. Survival comes first.

It's all I have left. If it's something else, I overlooked whatever loophole Rob created.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby drachefly » Thu May 02, 2013 10:19 am

Kreistor wrote:Drach, Airspace, Outer Walls, and Tunnel are all city zones of GK. Airspace is the only way to attack Tower. It's all in the Book 1 Klogs.


Then how did Faq capture Efbaum and found a side with Olive in airspace, uncaptured? You just saw the evidence, which is at the 'they did it' level rather than the 'second-hand description' level.

I drew the distinction 'proper' city zone. As in, it could be a place that's in the same hex as the city, but not in the city itself. We already know there are all sorts of distinctions being drawn here - GK was able to move from atrium down to the portal room off turn (i.e. movement within garrizon subzones), but not from airspace to atrium (into a city zone). It's not a stretch to suppose that airspace isn't even a part of the city for purposes of claiming it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Thu May 02, 2013 10:27 am

drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Drach, Airspace, Outer Walls, and Tunnel are all city zones of GK. Airspace is the only way to attack Tower. It's all in the Book 1 Klogs.


Then how did Faq capture Efbaum and found a side with Olive in airspace, uncaptured? You just saw the evidence, which is at the 'they did it' level rather than the 'second-hand description' level.

My money is on the idea that Charlie (intentionally or otherwise) slightly missquoted the rules. He definitely omitted the qualifier "living and uncaptured," so I wouldn't be surprised if he also didn't point out that Parson only needs to get the units out of the garrison rather than the city as a whole.

Though perhaps there is a difference between re-founding a side and founding a new side?

It's really only an important distinction from the perspective of the dwagons. Parson has a lot of means at his disposal of making sure he's the only living unit in Spacerock or Spacerock's garrison. With some of the rules interpretations, the Dwagons get to avoid being turned into rations for a second time in one day. I hope only that Parson not mentioning them in the eyebooks just reflects that he doesn't want to tip his hand to Charlie just yet when Chalie's carnymancer goons are gathered around the Spacerock portal in TMK... rather then him not realizing his options.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Thu May 02, 2013 10:39 am

drachefly wrote:
Kreistor wrote:Drach, Airspace, Outer Walls, and Tunnel are all city zones of GK. Airspace is the only way to attack Tower. It's all in the Book 1 Klogs.


Then how did Faq capture Efbaum and found a side with Olive in airspace, uncaptured? You just saw the evidence, which is at the 'they did it' level rather than the 'second-hand description' level.


Tower is in Garrison, Airspace is not. To capture a City, you only need to capture Garrison. So when Olive entered Airspace, she left Garrison, and handed the city to FAQ since no Haffaton units remained in Garrison.

Charlie's quote on Barbarians capturing a Capital seems to indicate that Barbarians have a different set of Rules. They need the entire City, which appears different from the previous Rule we knew concerning Sides capturing Cities. Rob may have created it as an "exception" to the Rules. But he may have overlooked Side Split as an option, and merely be doing damage recovery in creating the exception. It's common enough. There's an old DnD saying, "Never play a character that's smarter than you."
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Thu May 02, 2013 10:42 am

Kreistor wrote:The one trick I know should work, but due to the absoluteness of the Inferno rule may not is back-burning.
Methinks backburning only works when fires are burning as an advancing front (when there are strong winds). I don't believe that this is the case here, so setting a backfire would be about as likely to work as trying to leap through the advancing wall of flames to the ashed side beyond.

Mebbe not though. Maybe he can start a "controlled" fire and keep it going long enough to ash an area before extinguishing it. I don't think the solution is particularly satisfying however.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Thu May 02, 2013 10:46 am

Kreistor wrote:There's an old DnD saying, "Never play a character that's smarter than you."
One of those typically worthless expansion guides actually had a good suggestion on how to play a genius villain... assume that, more often than not, the villain knows in advance what the PCs will try to do, and prepares accordingly. This one simple rule turned a 4th level Noble NPC character into our campaign nemesis. Doesn't work for PCs though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Thu May 02, 2013 10:49 am

effataigus wrote:Methinks backburning only works when fires are burning as an advancing front (when there are strong winds). I don't believe that this is the case here, so setting a backfire would be about as likely to work as trying to leap through the advancing wall of flames to the ashed side beyond.


The fires were started in one specific location, near Tower with Sylvia, not generally across the hex. Parson is near that location, so we should see fire near him all the time.

Jumping to the conclusion "the entire city is aflame" becase Parson is surrounded by fire is a little presumptuous. There could easily be regions of Outer Walls athat are pristine right now. And with Reds right outside the wall, Parson can potentially use their Immunity as a buffer to get him out of the currently burning region and find someplace defensible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Thu May 02, 2013 10:49 am

Kreistor wrote:Charlie's quote on Barbarians capturing a Capital seems to indicate that Barbarians have a different set of Rules. They need the entire City...
They are working under the assumption that Faq was a barbarian side at the time. Unless you contest this, barbarian sides cannot have a different set of rules from those that applied to Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby effataigus » Thu May 02, 2013 10:58 am

Kreistor wrote:There could easily be regions of Outer Walls athat are pristine right now. And with Reds right outside the wall, Parson can potentially use their Immunity as a buffer to get him out of the currently burning region and find someplace defensible.
This is a source of confusion for me that I brought up earlier, and still don't have a good answer for. In the Klog update we see that garrison inferno will spread to outer walls and kill units there eventually. However, Sylvia's plan was to burn the garrison until they got the last JS unit and then flee to the outer walls.

Can you just roll well and survive an inferno (as you seem to be suggesting)? Was Sylvia assuming that they could get the blaze under control after they had the city? Was her idea just really profoundly bad?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Thu May 02, 2013 11:05 am

On FAQ:
You're right. I had forgotten they were Barbarian at the time. Charlie is actually wrong about what must be done to capture Jetstone: it still only needs Parson to move everyone to Outer Walls. (Use Dwagons to create a "safe" zone by turning a path to ash ahead of him.) The Antium-Ruler solution is still on the table.

(Sorry Drach, you were probably trying to tell me this and I missed your point.)

On Inferno:
Inferno will "eventually" kill everything, but it doesn't need to do it by Jetstone Turn end. The blaze will continue into the night, and delay Turn start tomorrow until it has done it's work.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Kreistor » Thu May 02, 2013 11:07 am

Please delete, double post.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Doctor Foreman » Thu May 02, 2013 11:10 am

Lipkin wrote:Is there anything preventing Sizemore from paying rands for the services of a Moneymancer in the MK?

That's a good point. I'm not certain. My guess though is that a barbarian caster specifically needs Schmuckers to keep from disbanding (I assume it isn't feasible to hire a caster aligned with another side?)

And seeing as how Sizemore is largely responsible for harvesting the gems of GK, I don't think it's unlikely his entire fortune isn't rands.

True, but we don't know how much Sizemore is allowed to carry around with him. Remember he's the lowest of the low from Stanley's perspective.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Arcana » Thu May 02, 2013 11:39 am

arin wrote:
Jillian wrote:Olive had left the garrison. That was the only explanation. After Jillian destroyed the golems, Orwell must have been the only Haffaton unit in Efbaum’s garrison. Therefore, when the Overlady fled to the airspace, the city fell to Faq.


So barbarians CAN claim a new capital just through uncontested control of a garrison.


Wait a minute. Am I thinking about this right? Spacerock didn’t fall to Gobwin Knobb when Cubbins was incapacitated and buried under the rubble in the garrison zone. But Orwell was also incapacitated and in the garrison at Efbaum when it fell to Faq.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby (name here) » Thu May 02, 2013 11:40 am

The Klog update that originally discussed city zones says the attacker needs to croak or capture every unit in the garrison, which requires taking another zone to strike from.

Barbarians might operate under different rules, but more likely Charlie is being imprecise and really means units in the garrison. Without a Thinkamancer, Parson will have trouble giving orders to the other units in the zone anyway.

Wait a minute. Am I thinking about this right? Spacerock didn’t fall to Gobwin Knobb when Cubbins was incapacitated and buried under the rubble in the garrison zone. But Orwell was also incapacitated and in the garrison at Efbaum when it fell to Faq.


Efbaum fell when Banhammer tapped him on the head to capture him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby Archameades » Thu May 02, 2013 11:46 am

I'd like to see Parson order the soldiers and Antium onto Dragonback and up into the airspace, then go barbarian, and start a new side. Provided Sizemore is allowed to go in and put out the Inferno all could be well. If not, at least he can get into the Magic Kingdom. Though even Stanely would see the value in getting all his Dragons and remaining units back for the cost of a little juice.

Not that I think that it will happen.. I would like to see it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby multilis » Thu May 02, 2013 12:02 pm

Parson can't move other units out of garrison because not his turn, still Jetstone's turn. (He had to use a trick to get Wanda's forces out of airspace, and unlikely that trick works to get back up)

So he would need them to go barbarian first, which *might* happen if Wanda went barbarian, then Parson joins Wanda's barbarian side.

Red dragons are big unknown, have they all died and been decrypted once? There is a scene where Wanda decrypts a red dragon to protect her and Jack that hints all the reds may have been decrypted: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -01-17.jpg

If every unit is decrypted and every decrypted unit follows Wanda rather than Stanley, then my guess is Wanda will go barbarian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 108

Postby (name here) » Thu May 02, 2013 12:08 pm

The owner of a city can move units between zones off turn.
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