Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:24 am

vintermann wrote:Doothis was an overlord - so either non-Royal sides can spin off after all, or the sides spun off from Royal sides aren't necessarily Royal themselves.

What spin-off did Doothis make? We know that Doothis founded the Side, but it's not really clear on how a Side gets founded. So we don't know that Doothis was "spun off". Doothis may have been some barbarian warlord who conquered a capital and was able to turn it into a Side.

It seems to be that Olive's attempted patricide is basically Olive siding with Haffaton against el-EfBaum (and Charlie). I wonder if, by that time, Haffaton had popped Tina (the turnamancer). Tina turns Olive, Olive turns on Charlie. Charlie sees his daughter corrupted, and his Side being crushed. He manages to kill Doothis (making Judy Gale Overlady), and then he and his Arkendish flee to some remote Capital site that el-EfBaum had captured long before.

If he truly loved Olive and felt betrayed by her turning, it really explains why he lives isolated in his tower... and why he is so obsessed with the decrypted Archons, who would undoutedly remind him of Olive's betrayal.

Also, if Olive betrayed Charlie due to Tina's turnamancy, she probably has a decent defense to the charge of patricide... which is why Wanda wants to focus Banhammer's attention on the evils of the Olive Garden.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby effataigus » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:25 am

kefkakrazy wrote:What other shenanigans might we see with tri-caster links? I'm waiting until we get to see a Dirtamancer/Dollamancer combo do a tri-link, animate a whole city, and drop the Erfworld equivalent of the Transformer Metroplex.
Haha... if this happens then I'll know for certain that all of my favorite webcomic creators are smoking the same crack. Recent updates:

http://nonadventures.com/2013/04/06/two-fer-saturday/
http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/25p98/
... and the castle/city's rampage that just ended in GirlGenius.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Doctor Foreman » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:27 am

Holy boop. Charlie's a Carnymancer?

I guess that fits with the area being "the magic of rigging the game" since Charlie is a cheating powergamer...but it's interesting that he attuned to an Artifact kind of outside his own discipline.

On the other hand, it's possible that Charlie is a Carnymancer the way Parson is a Hippiemancer - more in a symbolic than actual sense - or is in reality a Stupidworlder who's taken on some Erfworlder traits like casting abilities.

I'm inclined to believe Wanda hasn't told Parson this story. Even if she hasn't forgotten it in some way, it's possible the story we're hearing now is simply false in important respects. There's not much point in telling Parson she used to think he was a Carnymancer, or that she knew someone who incorrectly claimed to be his daughter, or what have you. Up until Olive's popping, the events Wanda's narrating aren't necessarily gleaned from primary sources. It's possible that Olive herself
made most of this up and told it to Wanda to benefit herself somehow.

effataigus wrote:That said, I do see some evidence for Charlie being an Erfworlder... which is that his daughter looks like one. There are ways around this, however (Who is the Mom if one exists? How did Olive pop...like humans or just through a city-queue? Do children look like parents in Erfworld? So far, no on the last one.)

Olive displaying traits of an Erfworlder is not evidence for Charlie being one. If Parson can issue orders and have them be binding, there's no reason he can't order an heir to pop. Reproduction doesn't work the same way in Erfworld. You don't have more than one parent, and it's a consequence of how sides /orders / natural Turnamancy / production works rather than biology. Did Jillian inherit her ethnicity or hair color from her father?
"If you leave out important things or events that you know about, the story is strengthened. If you leave or skip something because you do not know it, the story will be worthless." - Hemingway
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:30 am

effataigus wrote:My question, and I'm a lil out of it, so mebbe I just missed it, is "why did Judy turn on Charlie?" I'm guessing the answer will be Olive and her buds.

Judy never "turned" on Charlie. Judy was a Warlady of Haffaton. Charlie was the Overlord of el-EfBaum. They were on different sides. Once Easteros and Westeregg were defeated, the two Sides would likely have turned from allies to foes. As Warlady of Haffaton, it would have been Judy Gale's Duty to oppose el-EfBaum.

Using the Arkenshoes, Judy seems to have the ability to travel into any hex, which would have made her a superb strike force. If the Arkenshoes also allow her to bring some people along with her, she could have snuck into EfBaum with Tina the Turnamancer, grabbed Olive, turned her, and then used her to try to kill Charlie. To me, that seems to be the most likely scenario. (And since it's the most likely, it's the least likely to be the actual way it happened!)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby drachefly » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:32 am

wrecan wrote:Perhaps Judy came from a world in which Wizard of Oz doesn't exist but instead they have the amazing tale of a kid named "Gotti" who is sucked into a game and ends war... So Judy would walk around Erf marveling at how all the names of characters match things from that story... like Wanda Firebaugh, and Charlie.


Alternately, each time the spell is cast, it has to reach down one more layer and treat all previous castings as fictional. So, next time, we're up.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Eva » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:53 am

Olive could have easily tried patricide while under Charlie's rule, under the belief that it was for the side's own good. It didn't work, and then she was forced to flee to Judy.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Jinren » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:57 am

vintermann wrote:We've been told that Royal sides occasionally spin off new sides, suggesting that non-Royal sides don't. But Doothis was an overlord - so either non-Royal sides can spin off after all, or the sides spun off from Royal sides aren't necessarily Royal themselves.


Hang on, is there any evidence that the mechanics of the side are different between kingdoms and other domains? GK was ruled by a king, until such time as an heir was made of a non-royal unit, but it's the same side (also observe that Stanley was a non-Royal warlord in GK's service, proving that kingdoms can indeed have commoners as warlords if they so choose, and therefore meaning that Doothis could have come from either). It seems possible that the differences seen so far could be explained by the idea that the ability to queue aristocrat units for popping is one that can only be ordered by another royal unit, in the same way that they have other personal advantages.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Aquillion » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:59 am

youngstormlord wrote:And then, that naturally popped caster/ warlord prodigy just naturally has an idea for trimancer link/fourmancer scroll to summon a perfect warlord of his own?

There's no reason to think that a native Erfworlder couldn't simply be an unimaginably good caster and amazing at winning -- Olive is; and Charlie could have learned the lingo from his encounters with Judy or by plucking it out of her or Parson's brain with the Arkendish. We've seen that some native erfworlders, like Jillian, can think outside the box. But this part of your argument just doesn't make sense.

Obviously someone, at some point, had the idea to use a link like that to summon someone without it having been done previously. Whoever did would have had to have been pretty clever and cunning, capable of thinking outside the box; Charlie certainly fits the bill.

Now, I could still totally see him being a stupidworlder (the parallel to the wizard is the most obvious reason), but there's no proof yet, and the fact that he used that link doesn't really prove it -- someone has to have invented it at some point, so it could have easily been him (or people working under him.) Given that it's a cheat, it seems fitting that a Carniemancer would have figured it out.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby 0beron » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:18 am

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I KNEW Charlie was a Carny :) Totally should of put some quatarloos on that one, but I've been lazy and neglecting that thread for a while.
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There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Zippy the Squirrel » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:23 am

I find Wanda's comment about Judy taking several days to Attune interesting. It may open up some options for the Tools in general, such as the possibility that anyone might be able to Attune if they wield their Tool for long enough (Ansom being a counterpoint to this idea). Or maybe Wanda was mistaken, and Judy Attuned instantly but took some time to learn or reveal her new powers.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:34 am

Eva wrote:Olive could have easily tried patricide while under Charlie's rule, under the belief that it was for the side's own good. It didn't work, and then she was forced to flee to Judy.

That's true. Actually, the whole concept of Duty makes Banhammer's concept of "crime" suspect. Since Olive was never a barbarian, she was always subject to Duty. Accordingly, nothing she did could violate her Duty to her Side, so everything she did was because she thought it was for the Side's own good. Is Banhammer actually stating that there are things that are consistent with Duty that you should refrain from doing? (I guess he is saying that.) If so, how is Olive supposed to know what that is? She hadn't even read Banhammer's books on morality until after she conquered FAQ, which was well after she had committed most of the crimes on Wanda's list.

Thats' why Wanda is calling the Olive Garden a "perversion" of hippiemancy and somehow a violation of the Titan's desires. But if the Titans didn't want hippiemancy used this way, why did they create hippiemancy with these abilities?

Seems to me, Olive's defense is...
1. I never violated by Duty to my Side
2. Not doing everything I could for my Side would have violated my Duty
3. The Titans made Hipppiemancy so it could be used in the way I used it, so it can't be a perversion.
4. The aspects of the Olive Garden to which Wanda objects were conceived of under the thinkamancer Maxwell's guidance. If anybody was a pervert, it would have been Maxwell. (And we have ample evidence this is true.) If you deem Olive perverted, it was not her fault, as she was perverted by Maxwell. She should therefore be rehabilitated. And who better to rehabilitate Olive than a community of casters? Surely, some combination of Betsy's healomancy and Labeler's signamancy can repair the damage that Maxwell has wrought? (And then FAQ will have the benefit of a hippiemancer amongst its ranks!)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:51 am

Another thing I find interesting is how "perverted" Duty to Side can become. By the time it was conquered, Haffaton was a hollow empty husk, governed mostly by zombies and magically animated plants. It had very few units, relied heavily on natural allies (like high elves) for security, and Olive had turned all casters into heroine addicts. To what did her Duty lie? To the territory Olive maintained?

Olive's peace was a peace of the grave. If Haffaton had conquered Erf, it would have been a literally hollow victory. She'd be disbanding any units that she popped (since she couldn't afford them), natural allies would pretty much have free run of the wilderness, and the whole Side would have one subject -- Olive. I imagine a hippiemancer would find that to be a sad and lonely life indeed.

To me, this emphasizes beautifully why Parson has to break Erfworld. It is built on the need for constant bloodshed. Even a successful Side would end up having to disband most of its Units to make ends meet, sacrificing individuals in the name of some amorphous uncaring unfeeling unsentient amoral concept of "Side". The whole system is rigged for failure. Parson's got to break the system.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby badninja » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:54 am

Damn just damn. I had shivers reading this update. So much Charlie and important back story. Charlie's actions make such more sense now and add to what makes Charlie such a great character in this comic. Parson needs to know this soon as it would give him a better understanding of his enemy, because if Charlie has done this once he will do it again.

What was the original intent of garden because I get the feeling that Olive changed it from it's intended purpose for her own gain.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby wrecan » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:55 am

On a side note... so is this what Charlie looks like?

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby teratorn » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:06 pm

People seem to be forgetting a previous episode, in the words of Judy:

There used to be a man here who ruled it. An awfully nice man, at that. Very powerful in magic. I didn’t kill him when we took the city. I let him go.


Julie wouldn't have turned Olive to kill Charlie, she liked him. And

I am still, I think...being punished for that. But I don’t regret it. He was a lovely man.


hints that it was Olive who wanted Charlie dead.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Urf » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:08 pm

OF COURSE The Wizard Charlie is a Carnymancer. OF COURSE.

And OF COURSE he's not a Great Mind That Thinks Alike, because he uses his discipline to hack an Arkentool and achieve thinkamancy.

And OF COURSE he can hack the Eyebooks, because he's a Carnymancer.

Well played. I've liked Book 0 better than Book 2 for months now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Toper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:12 pm

Zippy the Squirrel wrote:I find Wanda's comment about Judy taking several days to Attune interesting. It may open up some options for the Tools in general, such as the possibility that anyone might be able to Attune if they wield their Tool for long enough (Ansom being a counterpoint to this idea). Or maybe Wanda was mistaken, and Judy Attuned instantly but took some time to learn or reveal her new powers.

I think it's just a throwaway reference to Dorothy not immediately knowing how to use the ruby slippers / silver shoes.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby atalex » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:15 pm

OvaltinePatrol wrote:Wonder if Wanda will be sworn to secrecy regarding this trial, get her memory wiped, or if she has some other compelling reason for not having told Parson about Charlie's history.


Hah! Confirmation of my own theory! I said years ago that Wanda was flat-out deceiving Parson about Charlie when she said that Stanley hated him and would never work with him. At the time, I thought Wanda and Charlie had actually conspired to bring about the fall of Faq and/or the overthrow of Saline. Which is still possible, but requires a few more twists and turns.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Noigel » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:23 pm

balder wrote:But there is a worse crime, one she can never truly answer for. She created the Olive Garden.”


Wow, that snuck up on me... belly laughed. Great prose and a hard hitting punchline.

wrecan wrote:Using the Arkenshoes, Judy seems to have the ability to travel into any hex, which would have made her a superb strike force. If the Arkenshoes also allow her to bring some people along with her, she could have snuck into EfBaum with Tina the Turnamancer, grabbed Olive, turned her, and then used her to try to kill Charlie.


This conceptualization of Judy as a master infiltrator scares the hell out of me. If I understand it right, she could have pulled off some zero-dark-thirty-type master assassin maneuvers. Think about it... she has move on every turn. She essentially always has move. The more sides that are in an engagement, the more ability she has to hit hard and then distance herself from retaliation. And if she's disguised and moving on your turn... you probably have no idea.

She's not all powerful, and she's got to strike where unexpected, but that's pretty powerful. I could see why it would take something like the flowers to finally drag her down.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 066

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:56 pm

Woah. Woah. Woah. That was a pretty brilliant update.

I don't think there has been a text update that answered quite so many questions at once. Or seemed to.

Casters rule sides, Charlie is a Carnie, there is a place somewhere across the seas (a great sea, which implies there are more than one great seas) - presumably a whole other continent, perfect warlords have been summoned before,... Erf units seem immortal if they don't fall victim to an unnatural death (if Charlie's over 11,000 turns old...)

Suddenly we've got multiple sides not ruled by Royals, and no sign of Royal crusades against them (so maybe that perception is a modern thing, and royals haven't always teamed up on non-royals). Or maybe it sprang up in response to Haffaton or something.

Also tools aren't destined to attune to one and only one person (Wanda or Stanley could die and they could attune to another). The fact Tool wielders have died before and all the rest could explain why Wanda and Charlie's are fairly non-committal attitude to "Toolism" as a religion or special.

Barbarian city?

Eva wrote:Olive could have easily tried patricide while under Charlie's rule, under the belief that it was for the side's own good. It didn't work, and then she was forced to flee to Judy.


I wonder also if low loyalty affects such things. We know Don King's heirs tried something against him, they didn't sound like especially great rulers so presumably they wouldn't have been great for the side. Olive plotted against both Charlie, the ruler, and the person who took over from him when he stopped being ruler, Judy. Maybe a rebellious unit needs to trick themselves into it (it'll be good for the side) or maybe they just have to have low enough loyalty to overcome the duty that compels them to serve their ruler.

vintermann wrote:We've been told that Royal sides occasionally spin off new sides, suggesting that non-Royal sides don't. But Doothis was an overlord - so either non-Royal sides can spin off after all, or the sides spun off from Royal sides aren't necessarily Royal themselves.


Well, he was a warlord at the time, and found a "barbarian city" - maybe he served a royal side, and much like Saline could make Stanley his heir his Royal ruler could spin off a new side with a non-royal warlord.

Or maybe a warlord can turn to themselves. Wanda did describe him in a way no other warlord has been described before - adventurous. Was he ordered across the sea or did he go of his own accord? Doesn't seem like something a lot of rulers we've seen would do "you, warlord, sail across that sea". Maybe adventurous is a trait and affords more autonomy, like a warlord can have flight or dancer fighting.

Also - up till now we've never seen a non-royal side big enough to really do much spinning off. For the first time ever we have evidence of strong, well ruled, large, old non-royal sides. Possible Doothis was a warlord of one across the seas. If they have the resources to be sending their warlords off into the unknown...
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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