Book 2 – Text Updates 056

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Salem wrote:Infinite growth of population is possible as far as upkeep is concerned and it's a point I've thougt of for a while. GK would have won if Parson still had the sword of ruthlesness. According to my favorite hero:
Part 1 of the recipe for success
Raw overwhelming power.
Part 2
How willing you are to debase yourself before feeling bad.

The Plan to conquer all of Erf.
As many turns of peace as possible.
Pop units nonstop in all your cities.
Hunt Dwagons, hunt all barbarian type units in your entire domain.

Now, you're looking at overkilling your upkeep. That's where debasing yourself comes in.
Almost as evil as a suit of armor entirely composed of babies.
Executions daily!
Everyday execute and decrypt all units with an upkeep that it is possible to decrypt. Snowball the size of your forces until no army on erf can win a battle against you. (Granted every side on erf working together could suicide and build faster than you.)
But that's when you start conquering cities. You have a max schmuckers per turn due to the fact you have minimum upkeep so every city you own can pop, using dragon rely wanda can be present at all executions. I believe we've even seen a decrypted level by killing a prince. So you could choose who to give the experience to. Your force would just get bigger and bigger only capped by a maybe yet to be seen unit cap.


if you start world conquest, decryption won't be enough to defend yourself. see 0beron's explanation above, as well as mine
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Whispri » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:03 pm

Salem wrote:...But it seems like it's pointing out a flaw in wanda, she treats the decrypted like uncroaked...

Finally, I think she is the captured one but to Phoebe being captured is probably as good as dead.

*Glances at prior update* *Shudders at thought*

Can't be, Phoebe thought of joining them both if she were spotted, ergo they must have shared their Fate. And as only one Archon was captured...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby noname_hero » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:13 pm

wrecan wrote:I think the fundamental problem is leveling. Erfworld pops hostile creatures and barbarians all the time. And the barbarians need a source of income or they will croak, so they have to raid. Creatures will fight people. Even if you only fight wandering creatures in self-defense, you will level up the victors to the point where you are no longer self-sufficient. Since there is no natural attrition, you're stuck in a scenario where you either have to croak your own people... for successfully leveling(!), or you go out and kill other Side's peoples.

Erfworld math dictates perpetual conflict, even in a world where people want to be peaceful. I do think that the four Arkentools are needed to manage peace. The Arkendish's thinkamancy allows you to monitor your Side and send units where needed. The Arkenpliers let you maintain decrypted units to handle barbarians and beasts for defense. I'm not sure how the Arkenhammer will contribute. And we have no idea what the fourth Arkentool is or does, or if there are other unknown Arkentools out there.


I can see your point but we know too little about details of Erfworld's mechanics to be able to do a detailed analysis. For example, I'm not sure whether the losses in fights against barbarians wouldn't be big enough to offset any increased upkeep due to levelling. Come to think of it, I'm not sure we have ever seen it stated that levelling=increased upkeep. Sure, we tend to assume it does, because most wargames that use levelling work that way, but is this true in Erfworld?

Or maybe any side too big could simply peacefully split into two smaller, more efficient sides who would be able to pay the increased upkeep total. And smaller sides would suffer heavier losses so in the end the world would reach a sort of equilibrium where losses to "natural" causes (e.g. barbarians) would serve as the balancing mechanism. Sure, some units would sometimes die but the world would be close to the minimum level of violence allowed by its basic laws.

Or maybe rulers could choose to only use "dumb" units to fight barbarians. Some of your dragons levelled up and you're short on schmuckers? Harvest them for food and you both lower your upkeep total and gain provisions. Yes, you would be killing your own units, but they are not self-aware and I can live with that, especially if it minimizes the number of self-aware units that will die.

So yes, maybe it is actually impossible to reach a stable peace on Erf without resorting to Arkentool-level powers. But I do think that what we know so far allows for the possibility that a peace can be reached even without the Tools.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:17 am

zilfallon wrote:
Salem wrote:Infinite growth of population is possible as far as upkeep is concerned and it's a point I've thougt of for a while. GK would have won if Parson still had the sword of ruthlesness. According to my favorite hero:
Part 1 of the recipe for success
Raw overwhelming power.
Part 2
How willing you are to debase yourself before feeling bad.

The Plan to conquer all of Erf.
As many turns of peace as possible.
Pop units nonstop in all your cities.
Hunt Dwagons, hunt all barbarian type units in your entire domain.

Now, you're looking at overkilling your upkeep. That's where debasing yourself comes in.
Almost as evil as a suit of armor entirely composed of babies.
Executions daily!
Everyday execute and decrypt all units with an upkeep that it is possible to decrypt. Snowball the size of your forces until no army on erf can win a battle against you. (Granted every side on erf working together could suicide and build faster than you.)
But that's when you start conquering cities. You have a max schmuckers per turn due to the fact you have minimum upkeep so every city you own can pop, using dragon rely wanda can be present at all executions. I believe we've even seen a decrypted level by killing a prince. So you could choose who to give the experience to. Your force would just get bigger and bigger only capped by a maybe yet to be seen unit cap.


if you start world conquest, decryption won't be enough to defend yourself. see 0beron's explanation above, as well as mine

I've read the entire thread. I do before I post in general. I don't think they apply.
Diminishing returns only applies if you have upkeep. I'm talking an army without upkeep. Executing all your own units and making them decrypted.
I'm talking not starting the war until you're huge.
GK Could have done it using a veil to make the crater look filled with fiery death. But even not having that.
Unless someone knows you're growing huge you'll probably get left alone and you don't have to expand since your side is producing smuckers with little to no upkeep.
Any living troops might as well be shock troops. Just res them as decrpted.

Additionally I don't know how decrytped not being able to be uncroaked matters at all uncroaked decay. So it's not like that helped sustain a massive side. Decryption and maximum unit production as well as harvesting dwagons and other natural spawning units would make for huge ranks especially since they do not decay.

I'm talking about a side that is non stop popping and has no upkeep costs to show for it. It could defend its cities AND field a huge army.

The only "Weakness" would be a huge coalition that could pop more units faster as long as it kept sacrificing them, until the zombie side was weakened enough to take out. And even then unlikely look how few sides are in the RCCII.

It would just be boopin' monsterous to do it. You'd have to be willing to execute your own units as they popped.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:54 am

The problem is, your borders will increase linearly while the area you have to defend is squarely. (well I don't know if that's the correct way of saying it in english but i hope you'll understand, can't really think of a better way to explain, fail :D)

At first, this might seem like an advantage. But if you're relying on decryption for defence, it is actually a disadvantage. After your empire gets bigger than a certain size, you will not have enough enemies to generate enough decrypted to defend your lands.

To "solve" this issue, you said that you should decrypt every trained unit. With dwagon relay, that is possible to some point. But remember, dwagon relay isn't teleportation. It has it's limits. It is true that those "limits" won't actually matter until your empire becomes very,very,very huge. But eventually, it won't be able to keep-up with the production of your cities. (Which means, you won't be able to decrypt everything that pops) (remember, only one caster can decrypt, and she can't be in every city when they produce something. (we're talking about abnormally big empires here))

Then you have to make a choice:

1)You continue popping units, but since you can't decrypt all of them, you will have to pay upkeep. Which means >> your empire will eventually fail to sustain itself
2)You only pop units your decryption can convert, but this means that you're production is "capped", which also means that you won't be gaining units faster as your empire gets larger. Which also means >> your empire won't be able to grow after a certain point
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby CNagy » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:18 am

Technically speaking, you don't have to defend the entire heartland--you need to defend and patrol a wide enough band of it along fronts to have a high chance (enter the Mathamancer) of spotting enemy incursions. In this way, the amount of land you have to defend does not increase at as great of a rate when you expand your borders. Cities in the buffer zone would be staffed adequately to defend the city, and as the borders expand cities falling further inside the empire cycle their units to cities in the new buffer zone.

Cities further in would be less defended. Emphasis would be placed on air defense and range-capable units, as siege engines are slow moving and thus more likely to be spotted en route, less likely to be used in a blitzkrieg style invasion, and entirely unlikely to be used in a stealth invasion. Decrypted flying mounts would be important in the heartland, as it would allow a quick mustering of troops from various cities in the event that an invasion force makes it past the buffer zone and is either spotted or takes a city in the heartland. Strategic points would be better defended, the capital would be well defended.

The heartland is entirely decrypted. Living units man the front lines, supplemented by all the decrypted that you don't have to keep defending every city in the empire. Slow the rate of expansion down to however many major battle (aftermaths) a turn Wanda can get to with a reasonable Dwagon relay. Cycle newly decrypted into buffer zone cities, cycle decrypted from the buffer zone to the front lines to reduce loyalty problems. Expand along geographical features whenever possible to keep as much of your border from being a front line as possible.

It is entirely possible that this model is still unsustainable. On a large enough landmass, you eventually run into the same problems you do with trying to defend every city in the empire, though this can be mitigated somewhat if you manage to hit at least one coast.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby cheeseaholic » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:03 am

Why not stop expanding once you hit that point and just wait until you have max decrypted units in every hex you control? Once you reach that point you should be able to fairly easily take over the continent. Wait a hundred thousand turns at that point as you fill up the continent and wash over the world in a wave of doom.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:14 am

Not to mention X scouts in every hex even hexes extending from your own empire to help warn of incoming armies, a large force in your capital and any capital site.

By the way the english terms you're looking for I believe are exponential and linear. Linear growth vs exponential growth.

Also I think you're confusing stable growth and accelerating growth. Even when you can't dragon relay any further you're still experiencing MASSIVE stable growth. Any caster that increases movement would be a boon, here.

2 You could lead all assaults with entirely living units then decrypt everything after the battle even survivors then build a new living assault and just leave all decrypted in that city making it more defended than it ever was.

It would take one massive alliance to do anything to stop you. And even then it would take skill and the knowhow to accomplish it and complete loyalty to the alliance RCCII does not have that.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:18 am

Salem wrote:...it would take...complete loyalty to the alliance, RCCII does not have that.

Well they DID...but she went and killed herself :p
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:08 pm

0beron wrote:
Salem wrote:...it would take...complete loyalty to the alliance, RCCII does not have that.

Well they DID...but she went and killed herself :p


Touché.

I shall amend my point, complete loyalty from all in the alliance, not just one fancy dame.


Also on a smaller note, I'm not saying there isn't some mechanic that would make this impossible just one I don't know of. If there was a hard cap on unit size regardless of empire size. That would do it. But it seems that's what upkeep was made for.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:12 pm

Salem wrote:Touché.
I shall amend my point, complete loyalty from all in the alliance, not just one fancy dame.

Yeah I understood what you meant. I just couldn't resist using that as a point in favor of Bea, who was recently hotly debated and insulted in forum discussion :p
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:21 pm

0beron wrote:Yeah I understood what you meant. I just couldn't resist using that as a point in favor of Bea, who was recently hotly debated and insulted in forum discussion :p

Oh I definetly liked your point I'm a Bea fan. Wooo!
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Kreistor » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:03 pm

Oberon wrote:Exactly right. Except perhaps the part about becoming uber with no ongoing cost. I'm not sure we know that decrypted can level, although since uncroaked can it's a fair bet.


Note Wanda's reason for choosing who killed Ossomer. If Sylvia couldn't level, it wouldn't have mattered who killed him.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:38 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Oberon wrote:Exactly right. Except perhaps the part about becoming uber with no ongoing cost. I'm not sure we know that decrypted can level, although since uncroaked can it's a fair bet.


Note Wanda's reason for choosing who killed Ossomer. If Sylvia couldn't level, it wouldn't have mattered who killed him.


Yep, cuz when Ansom asked why she asked Sylvia to kill Ossomer, she replied "she needed xp". So we know for sure that the decrypted can level
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:18 am

zilfallon wrote:The problem is, your borders will increase linearly while the area you have to defend is squarely. (well I don't know if that's the correct way of saying it in english but i hope you'll understand, can't really think of a better way to explain, fail :D)

At first, this might seem like an advantage. But if you're relying on decryption for defence, it is actually a disadvantage. After your empire gets bigger than a certain size, you will not have enough enemies to generate enough decrypted to defend your lands.

To "solve" this issue, you said that you should decrypt every trained unit. With dwagon relay, that is possible to some point. But remember, dwagon relay isn't teleportation. It has it's limits. It is true that those "limits" won't actually matter until your empire becomes very,very,very huge. But eventually, it won't be able to keep-up with the production of your cities. (Which means, you won't be able to decrypt everything that pops) (remember, only one caster can decrypt, and she can't be in every city when they produce something. (we're talking about abnormally big empires here))

Then you have to make a choice:

1)You continue popping units, but since you can't decrypt all of them, you will have to pay upkeep. Which means >> your empire will eventually fail to sustain itself
2)You only pop units your decryption can convert, but this means that you're production is "capped", which also means that you won't be gaining units faster as your empire gets larger. Which also means >> your empire won't be able to grow after a certain point

Why can't you decrypt all of them? What he's suggesting is to execute all units, harvestable or not, as soon as they popped (or as soon as Wanda gets to them. If this was done in a pocket kingdom, there wouldn't be any need to expand borders at all.

So, lets suppose GK somehow fooled the initial RCCI expedition into thinking GK's a smoking crater (or a lava lake, or whatever). After that, Jack could keep their one city veiled indefinitely from passing air troops. Let's suppose then they stay undercover for a thousand turns. If all level 5 cities produce at the same rate, over these thousand turns they could pop eight thousand pikers, all of which would be decrypted immediately such that they'd never need upkeep. Now, we don't know how many schmuckers a level five gives you, but what's left over after the casters' upkeep should be in the hundreds of thousands or more range. So after these 1k turns they'd have accumulated millions if not billions of schmuckers. If all of these schmuckers were used to pop hobgobwins, you can add several thousand of them to the horde.

By now, hopefully everyone's forgotten about the name Gobwin Knob, but even if they haven't it won't matter. The city's defended by thousands upon thousands of units now; a completely unassailable fortress. Then the strike force is sent out on a campaign of slaughter. Drive straight for each capitol in sequence, cleanly severing the heads of the opposition. Once all sides who could possibly remember the location of Gobwin Knob are out of the picture, let the harvest begin. Every unit from each of the now neutral cities are croaked, decrypted, and then added to the horde. All cities are razed, with the schmuckers saved or used for (decryptable) Hobgobwins. Then go back into hiding for another thousand turns, until the nearby area has been repopulated. Rinse and repeat until all regions within easy reach of GK have acquired such a fearsome reputation that nobody would touch them with a ten-hex pole. By this point, your decrypted forces should outnumber any side's living forces by two-to-one to five-to-one. Then begin world conquest. And if you fail, just go back into hiding and try again later.

This can be done even if you can't find a way to execute your own troops besides harvesting; a fleet of a few hundred decrypted dwagons should be able to solve your garrison problem soon enough, since you don't need to defend the land you're taking.

The point I'm trying to make is that there's no known limit to how many decrypted troops a side can stockpile. You could replace the 'raid and hide' plan with just a steady advance, never going so fast that you don't have enough decrypted to fully garrison your cities, and never using decrypted units on the front lines, there's nothing known that could stop that side from achieving critical mass and becoming literally impossible to beat eventually.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby 0beron » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:35 am

Nnelg wrote:So, lets suppose GK somehow fooled the initial RCCI expedition into thinking GK's a smoking crater (or a lava lake, or whatever). After that, Jack could keep their one city veiled indefinitely from passing air troops.

The only problem with that is that everyone else KNOWS there is a city-site there...a CAPITAL site no less. They're going to want to investigate it to be positive it's un-salvageable. That and the fact GK retained it's Portal would be a give-away as well. I know this wasn't the main point of your hypothetical, I just felt it was important to point out.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Nnelg » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:16 am

0beron wrote:
Nnelg wrote:So, lets suppose GK somehow fooled the initial RCCI expedition into thinking GK's a smoking crater (or a lava lake, or whatever). After that, Jack could keep their one city veiled indefinitely from passing air troops.

The only problem with that is that everyone else KNOWS there is a city-site there...a CAPITAL site no less. They're going to want to investigate it to be positive it's un-salvageable. That and the fact GK retained it's Portal would be a give-away as well. I know this wasn't the main point of your hypothetical, I just felt it was important to point out.

I know. I was ignoring inconvenient details for the purpose of argument. Another one of which would be how they're staving off boredom for that thousand-turn interval...
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby zilfallon » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:30 am

Nnelg wrote:
0beron wrote:
Nnelg wrote:So, lets suppose GK somehow fooled the initial RCCI expedition into thinking GK's a smoking crater (or a lava lake, or whatever). After that, Jack could keep their one city veiled indefinitely from passing air troops.

The only problem with that is that everyone else KNOWS there is a city-site there...a CAPITAL site no less. They're going to want to investigate it to be positive it's un-salvageable. That and the fact GK retained it's Portal would be a give-away as well. I know this wasn't the main point of your hypothetical, I just felt it was important to point out.

I know. I was ignoring inconvenient details for the purpose of argument. Another one of which would be how they're staving off boredom for that thousand-turn interval...


nonsense! boredom shouldn't be a problem if you're "abusing for greater good" :D

The tactic you mentioned is, of course, good. If your goal is only survival.

In my posts, I explained "total world domination" issues.

However, now that I noticed, in my previous posts, I said that the empire is growing larger because I assumed that capitals are indestructible. (Civilization...)
If they can be razed and removed, it depends on the "spawn rate" of neutral units and new sides, and mostly on the size of Erfworld. Again, I previously assumed a ridiculously large world (like, "no single unit has seen more than %1 of it" large-ness)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Salem » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:36 pm

0beron wrote:The only problem with that is that everyone else KNOWS there is a city-site there...a CAPITAL site no less. They're going to want to investigate it to be positive it's un-salvageable. That and the fact GK retained its Portal would be a give-away as well. I know this wasn't the main point of your hypothetical, I just felt it was important to point out.


If Jack made it look like a magma pit no one would probably want to go for a swim. But you'd be out of luck on the portal, that would be a dead giveaway. Unless casters only know what side it belongs to rather than what capital site it leads to.

zilfallon wrote:
nonsense! boredom shouldn't be a problem if you're "abusing for greater good" :D

The tactic you mentioned is, of course, good. If your goal is only survival.

In my posts, I explained "total world domination" issues.

However, now that I noticed, in my previous posts, I said that the empire is growing larger because I assumed that capitals are indestructible. (Civilization...)
If they can be razed and removed, it depends on the "spawn rate" of neutral units and new sides, and mostly on the size of Erfworld. Again, I previously assumed a ridiculously large world (like, "no single unit has seen more than %1 of it" large-ness)


Also, I just think with a cold heart and the Arkenpliers your best bet is military industrial complex not blitzkrieg. It's all about having insurmountable might. Might + Willingness to debase yourself. That's Xykon's formula for winning.

Say you couldn't hide from RCCII. We all agree that GK "COULD" beat them. It's not guaranteed it will play out that way but it's possible. So now without any immediate threats you could have every city they owned popping units to kill nonstop.
The important thing is you don’t need to attack city after city you can spend time in a build up after each conquest since every city you take would have a defence force bigger than the original. Attackers + Defenders. And no attacking croakamancer could uncroak your units.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 056

Postby Whispri » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Stanley pops Dwagons, Charlie pops Archons, if their Arkentools are the reason why, perhaps Wanda would be able to pop Decrypted Units. Now that would be a World changer.
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