Book 2 – Page 78

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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Raza » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:38 am

Excellent update. The symmetry between text and events is beyond impressive.

Also, unexpected but believable major character death with all sorts of immediate and long-term consequences. I guess Jetstone may not find out about the zero upkeep thing this turn, not we about the relevant specifics of heir status. My only regret is that he didn't live to lead Jetstone's last stance at Dhrystone; I was convinced that was natural predictamancy.

Also good to see the Archons aren't going to just sit there ineffectively and get wiped. I was afraid that the leadership disagreement comic was setting them up as the dwagons of book two. The gamer in me really wants to see Parson keep at least a one or two of this rare and incredibly useful unit type; losing them all without even collecting a caster so far would be a huge waste of decryption's potential.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby drachefly » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:19 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:The severed head was an illusion. The portal closing wasn't.


What? The portal appeared to be open again in the next panel, and they act as if it is open.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -09-30.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:29 am

Oberon wrote:The archons are a flying bunch of Stepford wives, with magic blasts and (historically) whatever ability they needed at the time (note that they've never used this "swarm and dismount" maneuver before, just one more weapon in their nigh infinite arsenal). I dislike them immensely, both as a unit and as a plot device.

To be fair, "swarm and dismount" seems more like a strategy than an actual "ability". It's just a complicated order that only could be given by a leader, which we know about 1/3 of them are. Heck, we've seen a dwagon perform a dismount before.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Saladman » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:19 am

In that vein, Sizemore describes Jetstone or Marbit forces in the tunnel battle as "...aware of us... trying to swarm us." And Wanda orders an uncroaked warlord (succesfully) to "disarm and dismount" Ansom. So yeah, not a unique ability for archons, but rather it would be strange if weaker units could do it and they couldn't (given the numbers).
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby prb123 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:35 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Pooga wrote:I should mention that this doesn't mean Parson is trapped in the Magic Kingdom, or that he can't get to Jetstone in time to affect the outcome of the battle, but he's not doing it through the dungeon portal. That ship has sailed.



Er, no. The portal is fine, it's still there. You can see it in the background in later panels. When it disappears in panel two, that's just Jack's illusion.


Correct. Jack even says "Because the King is in his tower. And the Tower's coming down" We know the king has the jetpack and is alive. Hence the portal is still active, despite the lack of a heir yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Kreistor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:20 pm

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-08-28.jpg

"We need only eliminate every enemy unit in Garrison and the city will fall to us."

The portal is active until this condition is achieved.

"We should go forth now, mop up the dungeon and inner walls, and be ready to scour the rubble for barbarian stragglers once the tower is down."

To capture the city and eliminate the portal ALL 3 of the following MUST happen:

1) Clear the rest of dungeon.

There are still enemy units in the dungeon, and no one has gone to eliminate them since this comic, so they are STILL THERE NOW.

2) Kill everyone on Inner Walls.

No one is described as dealing with them. (The later scenes are of Outer Walls, so no visual on these units, but there is no description fo anyone fighting them.) Inner Walls does not border Airspace (Outer Walls and Tower do) so Archons cannot capture it. Only units currently in Garrison can capture Inner Walls.

3) Eliminate units in Tower Rubble.

Tower crashes, but "Tower Rubble" (not necessarily the correct name) must still count as a separate zone in Garrison, even though we know it can't hit airspace like it used to. It is presumed by the speaker that Slately dies and all Jetstone units become barbarian (Neutral, actually). He would correct this to "Jetstone stragglers" if he knew Slately and Jetstone survived the Tower fall.

Tremmenis may be in Tower Rubble, but there were orders to get him out while he was unconscious. We do not know if he has been sneaked out.
_____

What about Slately? He lives, so does he change any of this? Does GK have to kill Slately to capture City?

SLATELY IS IN AIRSPACE WHICH IS NOT A GARRISON ZONE.

Slately's survival has prevented the immminent failure of the portal (due to Jatstone ceasing as a Side), but not the loss of it when GK captures Garrison. Once the Garrison falls, since it is still Jetstone's Turn, he can leave Airspace and retreat through the environs to another City, but it will cost Move. The owners of the City at that point (GK) could redeploy freely into the outer Zones, including Airspace, Outer Walls, and theoretical Tunnels since that does not cost Move. (Permitting GK to eliminate all Jetstone units.) They may then fight to kill or capture remaining Jetstone units (or Neutrals if Slately dies without heir).

Note that ending Jetstone Turn does not prevent combat, so the fight would continue. While we are used to seeing combat end with sundown, when units are in the same hex, they can still fight, so GK can continue efforts to capture the city into the night. Until it does capture Garrison, Jetstone can redeploy throughout the City since it still owns the city, but after Turn end and GK victory in Garrison, every unit is stuck in its current Zone and cannot expend the Move to change Zones.

I have seen no indication that units in a City whose Garrison changes hands are automatically captured. I require citation to comment on that belief.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:29 pm

Kreistor wrote:A bunch of things I have been trying to point out in bits and pieces and people keep ignoring

THANK YOU for outlining step by step in a single post all of the things that prove the city still belongs to Jetstone and the Portal is still open. MAYBE people will actually accept that as fact now.

Kreistor wrote:Note that ending Jetstone Turn does not prevent combat, so the fight would continue. While we are used to seeing combat end with sundown, when units are in the same hex, they can still fight, so GK can continue efforts to capture the city into the night. Until it does capture Garrison, Jetstone can redeploy throughout the City since it still owns the city, but after Turn end and GK victory in Garrison, every unit is stuck in its current Zone and cannot expend the Move to change Zones.

Due to the relativistic nature of time in Erfworld, I would actually hazard a guess that even if Jetstone declared end of turn, the sun still won't set because combat is not concluded. Or something of that sort. No precedent for this of course, but I imagine that's how Erfworld would "react" to this situation.

Kreistor wrote:I have seen no indication that units in a City whose Garrison changes hands are automatically captured. I require citation to comment on that belief.

I don't have the time to go looking for the exact pages for a link, but this was mentioned in Parson's Klog when he was learning about city zones and combat, and then we saw it in action from the perspective of that Piker during one of the text updates of book 2 when Wanda's Decrpyted captured a Unaroyal? city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Kreistor » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:47 pm

That's why I am a Rules Monger.

And you're right about the Shackles appearing. Described in:

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... rigley.jpg

when Garrison fell. So, if they capture Garrison, every unit in Airspace and Outer Walls is captured. Including Slately? Interesting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby multilis » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:49 pm

Kreistor wrote:That's why I am a Rules Monger.

And you're right about the Shackles appearing. Described in:

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... rigley.jpg

when Garrison fell. So, if they capture Garrison, every unit in Airspace and Outer Walls is captured. Including Slately? Interesting.



The update doesn't say that. It says in this specific situation that units on ground suddenly are captured. It does not say for sure what happens to units in air. It does not say what happens to units in personal stack of a leader if that leader goes barbarian. (Including examples of Jill and Wanda and their stacks when their sides fall)

We can guess on what makes most sense but that does not prove. Rulebook could easily say units in X situation are not captured.

We know from when Wanda became ruler, that the King Stately can probably sense the situation of every remaining unit on his side. If he senses garrison soon to fall (few units and hitpoints left), and if he or everyone else in his stack would be captured as result, he would normally be motivated to try to flee city airspace rather than fight, unless he is really stupid. I don't think he is that stupid, so I guess either a) garrison has some defenders left, or b) he is able to escape with personal stack even if city falls.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Multilils, you're being obtuse. Here's a FULL explanation, from multiple pages.
Klog 11 wrote:
City "falls" when all units in the garrison are croaked or captured.
Each zone [Airspace, Tunnels, Outer Walls, Garrison] has its own rules of engagement, but they're all considered parts of the city

The first part is something I think we all knew. The second bit tells us that everything in the city hex (including the Airspace) is part of the City mechanically speaking.

Summer Update 34 wrote:[Wrigley's] hands were held with the shackles that popped on his wrists the moment Warchalking's Garrison fell.

This shows us that when a Garrison is taken, units in the city are shackled. Because the Klog told us that all the areas of the hex are part of the city, it's silly to assume different regions of it will behave differently when it falls. Remember, we're talking about a war game here. What's the POINT of being able to capture all the units in the city if the fliers and Ruler can still escape?

And lastly, consider the fact that we know from Klog #12 that when a Ruler is killed, their cities become nuetral and EVERYTHING in them freezes. How is capturing it going to be any different?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Weaver » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:18 pm

Pooga wrote:I should mention that this doesn't mean Parson is trapped in the Magic Kingdom, or that he can't get to Jetstone in time to affect the outcome of the battle, but he's not doing it through the dungeon portal. That ship has sailed.

I think that the portal closing there was part of the illusion, you can see it in the background a panel or two later. Jack also says that while it has not happened yet, it will soon close.

I suspect Parson got through, and we're building tension for the reveal. Is there anything to confirm this has not happened?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby oslecamo2_temp » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:04 pm

0beron wrote:
Kreistor wrote:A bunch of things I have been trying to point out in bits and pieces and people keep ignoring

THANK YOU for outlining step by step in a single post all of the things that prove the city still belongs to Jetstone and the Portal is still open. MAYBE people will actually accept that as fact now.


Fact? What fact? The actual, explicit fact I see is here

Cause: If we took the city now, it would no longer be a capital.
This portal would close.
Effect: Our chief Warlord would be trapped in the magic Kingdom.
Yes, but that will happen at any moment anyway. As soon as the tower falls.

...I...You know, I did wonder why collapsing the tower was not in his original battle plan.


Can't get more explicit than that. Tower falls, portal disapears and throws a monkey wrench in Hamster's plans. Jack even admits that they shouldn't have gone for taking the tower down. You're so focused on the details that you miss the direct statements.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby 0beron » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:14 pm

I'm going to put this as simply as possible, since apparently the multiple complex post before didn't do it for ya.

  • Slately was in the Tower
  • Tower is destroyed, units in it are very likely to Croak
  • If the Ruler of a Side croaks without an Heir, the Side ends.
  • If a Side ends, they obviously can't have a Capital anymore
  • A City that isn't a Capital can't have a protal.

When the Duke says "that will happen in a moment anyway" he is referring to taking the city.
While that conversation was being had, nobody knew Slately would have any means to leave the Tower. So knocking it down WOULD have thrown a monkey-wrench in the plans...but Jetstone's resourcefulness actually is HELPING GK in a way.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Weaver » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:26 pm

Ah! Yeah I see what you guys are arguing about now. Had to read that v. thoroughly. So y'think the tower has nothing to do with the city having a portal, its simply that the leader happened to be there.

So there is actually no reason at all to expect the portal to be closed, seeing as Slately is still live and kicking, and troops still occupy elements of the city.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby coyotenose » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:32 pm

We know the attention to detail in Erfworld the comic is impressive. We pulled a double take when someone's livery was slightly off once.

1.Lloyd's spell on the previous page is clearly in reaction to the Archons' decision to hit the leadership. And look what he's doing. "Here... Here..." while gesturing to two spots.

2.Ossomer is fighting with the wrong weapon. The sword was nowhere to be seen on the previous page. Lloyd is familiar with the pre-decrypted Ossomer who primarily fights with a sword. It's worth a conjecture that dittomancer duplicates are sometimes or always (depending on Juice) unable to take independent action, but function like controlled illusions.

3.Slately's laser scepter is missing. Lloyd isn't familiar with it. (and possibly dupes can't use ranged attacks, or need more Juice to use Specials, or can't use Specials) His jetpack is there, but the king would FALL if it weren't. It's a necessary feature.

4. Nobody in the stack is seriously trying to fight the Archons. In fact, they stop even the meager attempts at fighting they were making in order to display shock and horror.

5. Was the Jetstone air force one stack or several? The casters seemed so close previously that I assumed they were one stack. Since they lack extra Leadership, I would think they'd all want to be in one stack. Yet in this scene, they are so far away that we can't see them (apart from Pierce, who by the nature of his Discipline would be placed right beside Slately without question). And ffs, if anyone would have a grapple hook crossbow...


The only reason I can see that the unit who just Croaked is really Ossomer and not a dupe is that it turned to dust. And Lloyd was present at Exposition Bridge, so he has seen what happens to croaked Decrypted. It all comes down to the details of Dittomancy. I'd bet real money that it's a dupe, though.

I'm very impressed that the metaplot arguments for and against that Croaked unit being the real Ossomer are equally valid. The author has previously killed detailed, interesting characters as soon as they appear, so we can't assume that Ossomer's character development will allow him to survive longer, or that his belly flop of a death is too quick and undeserved to be real. But at the same time, he seems Fated for at least a little more action.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Balerion » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:36 pm

I was looking forward to an in depth rules drag out...but this is ridiculous. As Oberon and Kreistor have ably pointed out, the entire reason the tower falling would trap Parson was because it would likely kill Slately or give them the garrison; ie the city would fall. There is absolutely no reason to think that a tower falling has jackall to do with the portal. Case in point? Look at Sizemore ruining GK in book 1. The tower clearly goes down. They still have a portal afterward. There is direct empirical evidence the two are unrelated.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby boegiboe » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:54 pm

It's really bugging me that Ossomer was dismounted almost immediately after warning everyone to watch for dismount attacks. The previous page had Lloyd very agitated and casting something very special. Ossomer is a warlord, and no more (Slately wouldn't make him Chief when he still mistrusts him), so perhaps he can be doubled by dittomancy. Nevertheless, I guess I have to admit that the earlier commenter who noted JS has no foolamancy is correct, so I can't reconcile how we don't see the double.

I guess what feels wrong here is that we've been waiting months (for understandable reasons) between seeing Ossomer turn and seeing him die, but in the comic, it's only a minute or two. Storywise, the wayward son returning to the fold just before getting offed while protecting his boss is pretty standard. It just doesn't feel that way for us reading page by page.

As far as the rest of the story goes, I'm expecting Tramennis to be made heir, but then captured by GK, so Slately has to flee to Dhrystone and set up a new capital, and we get to see lots of Tram-Parson dialogue while Wanda recovers from the backlash of Ossomer's turning.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby multilis » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:36 am

Jetstone has bunch of casters and may have scrolls, so foolomancy is possible. However foolomancy does not work on archons/they see through it.

....

The most important detail from this last few pages may be that Decrypted can be turned. So for example: Hagar... you lost Sammy, we may be able to bring him back. You already have deal with Charlie that means he can't sack your capital, and you are angry at Charlie and Jetstone. GK has lots of shmuckers, lets find ways to work together.

...

If in book 0, a side had combo that might take over universe... how much closer is Charlie to doing so? We see the power of a few and 30 archons and charlie has 600. If Charlie got ability to decrypt units, then running out of shmuckers would no longer be limiting factor. I think Charlie's biggest fear is everyone else ganging up to try and stop him before it is too late.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Oberon » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:37 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:First, I don't recall anywhere saying Ansom got everything he wanted. Jillian even complains their intelligence gathering sucks and they're just a big, slow pile of heavy infantry, heavies and siege that could (and was) outmaneuvered by faster stuff.
That's only because that was Ansom's preference. Ossomer even taunts him about it in the same update where he boasts about having casters assigned to him, "unlike the last Chief Warlord to make that request." The RCC didn't need maneuver. It was grinding inexorably towards victory, with a 25:1 advantage. Note how even losing 40% of their siege still didn't stop the walls being breached? A 40% loss, and it still didn't impact the outcome. Slogging along while reliant upon scouts and hats for intel against an opponent who has an omnicient view of the battlespace, and you still just grind your way in. About the best GK could do was pick off isolated or weak stacks, such as Jillian. And in the calculus of attrition losing Jillian wasn't going to have any impact on the final outcome. No, no real need for maneuver elements, although they still had a decent stack or two of flying units and then hired more in the archons.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:The severed head was an illusion. The portal closing wasn't.
If the portal closing with Jack's head stuck through it wasn't an illusion, then Jack would be dead. No amount of foolamancy prevents your head being separated from your shoulders. Jack is not dead, ergo the portal did not close. That was merely a (brilliant) part of the illusion.
coyotenose wrote:The only reason I can see that the unit who just Croaked is really Ossomer and not a dupe is that it turned to dust. And Lloyd was present at Exposition Bridge, so he has seen what happens to croaked Decrypted. It all comes down to the details of Dittomancy. I'd bet real money that it's a dupe, though.
I don't believe that Ossomer still lives. But I do agree with your take on dittomancy. If Lloyd had to know what to make the duplicates do, that would be just like foolamancy. I think that the duplicates will act just as the original would, without any direct guidance from Lloyd.
Weaver wrote:I suspect Parson got through, and we're building tension for the reveal. Is there anything to confirm this has not happened?
No. Two things weigh heavily against it:
1) Parson and company are faced by the GMTTA, and they want to capture Parson. For that standoff to end without being shown would be lame.
2) For Parson to enter Jetstone through the portal without it being shown would also be lame.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 78

Postby Kreistor » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:43 am

oslecamo2_temp wrote:Fact? What fact? The actual, explicit fact I see is here

Cause: If we took the city now, it would no longer be a capital.
This portal would close.
Effect: Our chief Warlord would be trapped in the magic Kingdom.
Yes, but that will happen at any moment anyway. As soon as the tower falls.

...I...You know, I did wonder why collapsing the tower was not in his original battle plan.


Can't get more explicit than that. Tower falls, portal disapears and throws a monkey wrench in Hamster's plans. Jack even admits that they shouldn't have gone for taking the tower down. You're so focused on the details that you miss the direct statements.


There are two ways in which the portal closes.

1) City is captured.

Yes, ceases to be a Capital, but making it the Capital can re-open it.

2) The Side ceases to exist.

No Side, no Capital, no portal. Had Tower fell at that moment, with Slately dying in the rubble with no heir, Side fails, units go Neutral, Turn may end (Haggar still on Turn may keep it going), portal closes; however, GK does not own City either, and cannot immediately change Capital to reopen it. They first must clear the Garrison of all enemy (including Barbarian/Neutral) units to re-open the portal.

The problem here is the Duke has forgotten that Jetstone dies with Slately, AND he did not understand the importance of Parson to capturing the City. He isn't concerned with the portal at all, and so it does not enter into his consideration. (He would have though they were moving to the Portal to block caster escape.) It is not reasonable to expect him to assume any other possibility than "No GK units are coming through the portal, because it's against MK rules." And remember, #2 doesn't achieve his goals, anyway. Capturing city still requires total elimination of all enemies, whether Jetstone or Neutral. Only #1 achieves what he thinks is expected of him.
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