Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:15 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
ftl wrote:She can avoid detection.


Again, quite plausible. But a bit imo inelegant. Wouldn't the nat.pred. that decides whether battlespaces are formed or not also know whether detection happens this turn or not? It may not, but that just sounds klutzy. If we decide that the world works such that nat.pred. is accurate enough to know whether contact will happen or not, so as to always correctly decide whether to form a battlespace or not, why not extend this to whatever even actually makes the battlespace needed?

Because it's magic, that's why, and it does(n't) whatever it wants, of course. Not a very pretty answer though.


No, he's got a point. What happens if one side isn't aware of the other side, and never becomes aware? If there is no contact except observation by one side, Is a Battlespace needed? I don't have an answer to that one. That was something I thought about when I was working on my theory.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:29 pm

ftl wrote:
Whispri wrote: A 'day' that lasts long enough for Barbarians to exhaust their food supplies and starve to death is as close to endless as makes no difference.
This keeps being repeated, but I don't think it makes any sense. Food gets eaten not by time in hours, but by time in turns. Even if a day lasted endlessly, you wouldn't starve because upkeep is paid by turn, not by time. Isn't that how erfworld works?

This suggests otherwise. So would the very update this thread is dedicated to, what with the pear being devoured off Turn. Upkeep is something's that's paid to avoid disbanding, food is something that's eaten to avoid starvation. Erfians of the race of men seem to be human, so the need to absorb nutrients would still be there. There's no reason to think that an endless day would leave biology kicking it's heals with nothing to do.

And I was really just using that to emphasise how insanely long a typical Magick Kingdom day would be with sequential Turns in anycase.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:53 pm

Whispri wrote:
ftl wrote:
Whispri wrote: A 'day' that lasts long enough for Barbarians to exhaust their food supplies and starve to death is as close to endless as makes no difference.
This keeps being repeated, but I don't think it makes any sense. Food gets eaten not by time in hours, but by time in turns. Even if a day lasted endlessly, you wouldn't starve because upkeep is paid by turn, not by time. Isn't that how erfworld works?

This suggests otherwise. So would the very update this thread is dedicated to, what with the pear being devoured off Turn. Upkeep is something's that's paid to avoid disbanding, food is something that's eaten to avoid starvation. Erfians of the race of men seem to be human, so the need to absorb nutrients would still be there. There's no reason to think that an endless day would leave biology kicking it's heals with nothing to do.

And I was really just using that to emphasise how insanely long a typical Magick Kingdom day would be with sequential Turns in anycase.


The pear was devoured at Dawn, as was Parson's meal. I don't think that hours have anything to do with it. I think that there are key points in a Turn. Or, perhaps everyone pays upkeep (and gets provisions, etc) at the same time, at Dawn, even if their turn hasn't come yet. Since both things happened at a significant point, I think that there's other more plausible explanations than any particular length of relative real-time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby onlyme » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:19 pm

Whispri wrote:With sequential Turns, a single 'day' in the Magick Kingdom would last for hundreds, if not thousands of hours. A 'day' that lasts long enough for Barbarians to exhaust their food supplies and starve to death is as close to endless as makes no difference.


However you define hour, be it the old 1/N of sun moving or the relatively new concept of time slices of the same length, a hour is always some part of a day, so the magic kingdom (assuming it is not special anyway, which is quite an assumption), just has the same hours as any other hex. (Or did you forget relative time again?)

And given how everything else is turn-based, I'd be quite suprised if food whould not be, either (not that it matter anyway).
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby ftl » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:20 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
ftl wrote:She can avoid detection.


Again, quite plausible. But a bit imo inelegant. Wouldn't the nat.pred. that decides whether battlespaces are formed or not also know whether detection happens this turn or not? It may not, but that just sounds klutzy. If we decide that the world works such that nat.pred. is accurate enough to know whether contact will happen or not, so as to always correctly decide whether to form a battlespace or not, why not extend this to whatever even actually makes the battlespace needed?

Because it's magic, that's why, and it does(n't) whatever it wants, of course. Not a very pretty answer though.


Well, the way I thought about it, it's because whether detection happens or not is something that is determined by how the contact goes. If they run into each other (i.e. are in the same hex), who detects who is determined by their interactions - same as a combat encounter.

To me, it seems like a scouting encounter is analogous to a combat encounter in that respect - if two units pass through the same hex or adjacent hexes, then the relative stealth or observational abilities and the details of how exactly they pass through, (some of which is probably represented by some sort of stats, like vision or stealthiness or something, and some of which is based on their behavior), determine who sees who and so on. So yeah, the best case scenario for Jillian is that she passes her spot check and the opponents never see her, in the same sense that it's the best case scenario in combat that the enemy arrow misses you. But the enemy still gets a chance to fire that arrow, and in this case they get a chance to try for that spot check - and to do either, they have to interact with you, and so thus be in the same battlespace, and take their turn either strictly before or strictly after you. Even if in a combat encounter nobody ends up croaked or injured, it's still an encounter even if the net result is that nothing happens. Looking at it that way, it wouldn't make sense for the natural predictamancy to put them in separate battlespaces even if they end up not seeing each other, same as it wouldn't make sense for them to be in separate battlespaces if two stacks walked up to each other and passed by without fighting.

Just my take on it, of course.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:29 pm

Housellama wrote:The pear was devoured at Dawn, as was Parson's meal. I don't think that hours have anything to do with it. I think that there are key points in a Turn. Or, perhaps everyone pays upkeep (and gets provisions, etc) at the same time, at Dawn, even if their turn hasn't come yet. Since both things happened at a significant point, I think that there's other more plausible explanations than any particular length of relative real-time.

Annnnd Stanley randomly heading off for a sandwich when ensorcelled into leaving a room despite noone else being hungry puts paid to that line of thought.

As for the 'Upkeep at Dawn' thing, as per this Klog, it's possible to do things like create Golems and Uncroak the dead off-Turn. Thus a Side with a Turn late in the day could dodge upkeep by creating fresh Units after dawn, but prior to their own Turn. Therefore, Upkeep must be paid at the start of Turn.

onlyme wrote:However you define hour, be it the old 1/N of sun moving or the relatively new concept of time slices of the same length, a hour is always some part of a day, so the magic kingdom (assuming it is not special anyway, which is quite an assumption), just has the same hours as any other hex. (Or did you forget relative time again?)

And given how everything else is turn-based, I'd be quite suprised if food whould not be, either (not that it matter anyway).

The Magick Kingdom has to fit in a Turn for Casters from each of countless Sides, each of those Casters needing hours to get done whatever it is they came to the Magick Kingdom to do, after that it's just maths. Unless Turns are resolved simultaneously for Sides not sharing Battlespace of course.

If hunger were Turn-based, no one would get hungry off-Turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:50 pm

Whispri wrote:
Housellama wrote:The pear was devoured at Dawn, as was Parson's meal. I don't think that hours have anything to do with it. I think that there are key points in a Turn. Or, perhaps everyone pays upkeep (and gets provisions, etc) at the same time, at Dawn, even if their turn hasn't come yet. Since both things happened at a significant point, I think that there's other more plausible explanations than any particular length of relative real-time.

Annnnd Stanley randomly heading off for a sandwich when ensorcelled into leaving a room despite noone else being hungry puts paid to that line of thought.


Bad example. Stanley was under a compulsion, and getting a sandwich could have just been something to do that wasn't in the room. Besides, haven't you ever eaten for pleasure before? Just because he is eating doesn't mean he has to eat.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:21 pm

Housellama wrote:Bad example. Stanley was under a compulsion, and getting a sandwich could have just been something to do that wasn't in the room. Besides, haven't you ever eaten for pleasure before? Just because he is[/] eating doesn't mean he [i]has to eat.

Yes he was, to leave the room, the rest was up to him. His choice. No one elses. And the fact that he's breathing doesn't mean he needs to breathe, but reading between the lines... Here's another random eatery page, again nothing special about the time.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Balerion » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:26 pm

1. Casters meeting each other in the magical kingdom does not constitute a battlespace being formed. Case in point: Faq + Wanda meeting did not add Faq into Goodminton's battlespace.

2. Since that means there was an encounter between two sides that did not correspond in creating a battlespace, we have to assume that encounters in the magical kingdom operate outside the usual battlespace rules.

3. Since we know there is an exception here, but nothing beyond that, further speculation is pretty much pointless until we learn more. But your insistence that there must be thousands of hours if turns are sequential is completely missing the entire concept of relative time. Especially since we know the sun jumps around based on what units are where; I can spend 9 hours walking and come back to a hex where only 2 minutes have passed for my allies. And you mean to tell me there isn't a mechanic by which the magical kingdom doesn't need to take thousands of hours a day?

I know I owe you a response Housellama, but i now have to dig through the thread to find where your post was ;). Will edit an answer in probably
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Whispri » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 pm

Balerion wrote:1. Casters meeting each other in the magical kingdom does not constitute a battlespace being formed. Case in point: Faq + Wanda meeting did not add Faq into Goodminton's battlespace.

2. Since that means there was an encounter between two sides that did not correspond in creating a battlespace, we have to assume that encounters in the magical kingdom operate outside the usual battlespace rules.

3. Since we know there is an exception here, but nothing beyond that, further speculation is pretty much pointless until we learn more. But your insistence that there must be thousands of hours if turns are sequential is completely missing the entire concept of relative time. Especially since we know the sun jumps around based on what units are where; I can spend 9 hours walking and come back to a hex where only 2 minutes have passed for my allies. And you mean to tell me there isn't a mechanic by which the magical kingdom doesn't need to take thousands of hours a day?

If Turns must happen sequentially, only one Side can have a Turn at a time and all Casters visiting the Magick Kingdom add an extra Turn to be resolved before a day can end, Battlespace or no. Each of these Turns take time to resolve, hours in fact judging by Sizemore's experience. This time will add up to hundreds upon hundreds of hours. Which is why simultaneous Turns for Sides unconnected by Battlespace make so much sense. That's your mechanic to keep the day at a sane length.

And no matter how many times you use the word 'relative', it doesn't change that time (an hour as I recall) passed for Wanda while she was waiting in the road after leaving Goodminton (which was in the process of dying) and it doesn't change the talk of hours here.

As for Wanda's meeting with the Faq Casters, no engagement occured, ergo...
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Lamech » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:09 pm

Whispri wrote:This suggests otherwise. So would the very update this thread is dedicated to, what with the pear being devoured off Turn. Upkeep is something's that's paid to avoid disbanding, food is something that's eaten to avoid starvation. Erfians of the race of men seem to be human, so the need to absorb nutrients would still be there. There's no reason to think that an endless day would leave biology kicking it's heals with nothing to do.

And I was really just using that to emphasise how insanely long a typical Magick Kingdom day would be with sequential Turns in anycase.
Due to the fact that sides can pay for themselves via farming foraging or hunting I strongly suspect that food can pay for upkeep. (Some Natural Sides even survive like this.) Unless those things are turned into shmuckers first they reduce or eliminate upkeep.

Edit: So it turns out that hunting and farming actually do make money directly.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby drachefly » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Whispri wrote:And no matter how many times you use the word 'relative', it doesn't change that time (an hour as I recall) passed for Wanda while she was waiting in the road after leaving Goodminton (which was in the process of dying) and it doesn't change the talk of hours here.


Nothing said that the time elapsed by enemies elsewhere had to be instantaneous and occur at the first possible moment. It could be randomly distributed.

As for the second, that was in the MK. It is already established to operate under a special set of time zone rules.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Masennus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:37 pm

ftl wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
ftl wrote:She can avoid detection.


Again, quite plausible. But a bit imo inelegant. Wouldn't the nat.pred. that decides whether battlespaces are formed or not also know whether detection happens this turn or not? It may not, but that just sounds klutzy. If we decide that the world works such that nat.pred. is accurate enough to know whether contact will happen or not, so as to always correctly decide whether to form a battlespace or not, why not extend this to whatever even actually makes the battlespace needed?

Because it's magic, that's why, and it does(n't) whatever it wants, of course. Not a very pretty answer though.


Well, the way I thought about it, it's because whether detection happens or not is something that is determined by how the contact goes. If they run into each other (i.e. are in the same hex), who detects who is determined by their interactions - same as a combat encounter.

To me, it seems like a scouting encounter is analogous to a combat encounter in that respect - if two units pass through the same hex or adjacent hexes, then the relative stealth or observational abilities and the details of how exactly they pass through, (some of which is probably represented by some sort of stats, like vision or stealthiness or something, and some of which is based on their behavior), determine who sees who and so on. So yeah, the best case scenario for Jillian is that she passes her spot check and the opponents never see her, in the same sense that it's the best case scenario in combat that the enemy arrow misses you. But the enemy still gets a chance to fire that arrow, and in this case they get a chance to try for that spot check - and to do either, they have to interact with you, and so thus be in the same battlespace, and take their turn either strictly before or strictly after you. Even if in a combat encounter nobody ends up croaked or injured, it's still an encounter even if the net result is that nothing happens. Looking at it that way, it wouldn't make sense for the natural predictamancy to put them in separate battlespaces even if they end up not seeing each other, same as it wouldn't make sense for them to be in separate battlespaces if two stacks walked up to each other and passed by without fighting.

Just my take on it, of course.


I agree with this with one simple modification:

Battlespace may not have to be symmetric.

It is ok for Jillian's turn start to be delayed by the elves walking through, and the elves' turn to still end at Dusk (e.g. if Jillian doesn't go after them on her turn.)

Jillian shares Battlespace with the elves, and her turn start is delayed, because Erf Predicted that she would notice them. Then she notices them. She can still hope that the elves don't notice her. The elves would then NOT share Battlespace with Jillian.

Asymmetric Battlespace is one consequence of my version of Erfworld Relativity.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Masennus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:43 pm

I found the relevant Summer Update

Three pieces of information there, and the discussion about the Magic Kingdom, lead me to need to overhaul my Theory of Erfworld Relativity:
1.)"A second was "one-thousand-one." A minute was sixty of those. An hour was sixty minutes, and a day was twenty-four hours. At least, within a given hex."
2.)"Only the order of our actions is important. Time isn't."
3.)"It [the sun] jumps backwards when I enter the hex?!" "Of course! To you," said Sizemore. "Because you traveled and were observed from that hex. If you weren't observed, you would find the sun in the same position as the previous hex."

I find statement 3.) from the summer update to be inconsistent with statement 2.) Both statements were made by Sizemore. To be consistent with statement 2.) Parson should observe the sun shifting backwards as he returns from scouting depending on what order events are happening in the Hex he returns to, rather than observation. To be consistent with statement 3.) Parson's scouting mission would return later in the day simply because no one was watching him.

If statement 3.) is amended to say (or understood to mean) "waited for" rather than "observed," I would find it far more consistent with the rest of the description of relativity in that update.

So, what of the sequential turns vs. simultaneous turns debate?

I find sequential turns make it easier to avoid paradoxes like the ones presented in this thread, with the exception of mid-turn communication between otherwise non-interactive sides. (Both via Thinkagrams and the Magic Kingdom.)

Simultaneous turns neatly solve the Thinkagram and Magic Kingdom issues, but leave possible weirdness when determining Battlespaces.

I propose a dual solution. Battlespaces are Predicted as if Sides always took Turns sequentially. Then Turns outside of Battlespaces are played simultaneously.

Here's how I use relativity to explain the paradox presented earlier:

Alberta and Borneo are at war. Alberta takes their turn first.

Sequential Turns:
On Alberta's turn: Scouts from Alberta are sent to find the remnant of a routed army from Borneo. They scout through Hex 7, then return to Hex 3 having not found the army they sought.
Then on Borneo's turn: Borneo's army camped in Hex 8, and passes through Hex 7 as they flee.

No Battlespace is formed, so the turns play simultaneously:

Alberta and Borneo both have units in Hex 7 during the simultaneous turn.

Battlespace should be formed, so turns play sequentially (and we return to the first situation.)

My solution is quite simple. From the rabbit in Hex 7's perspective the scouts from Alberta enter and exit the Hex first, then Borneo's army passes through. Suppose Alberta's scouts search Hex 7 thoroughly, until the sun moves most of the way to Dusk. Borneo probably thinks it's weird that the sun jumps to dusk when they enter the Hex, but they'll explain it away by saying that something else must have happened there earlier this Turn. They might even guess that Alberta's scouts were there. The question is whether that information causes any further problems.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Kreistor » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:20 am

Housellama wrote:Wow, I sparked a lot of debate! Good, that was the intent.

Re: Potential paradox about Battlespaces and Turn order: No possible paradox exists. Why? Very simple answer. It's MAGIC.


Nothing Rob has created so far has dodged basic logic with that excuse. So I'm rejecting it based on a complete lack of foundation for your position. Taking that position, you can believe or rationalize anything you want, which is of absolutely no interest to me, so just ignore me while I assume basic logic functions in Erfworld.

With Stupidworld physics, things have to be explained and consistent.


Logic, the foundation for determining my paradox, is not Physics and has so far never been violated.

Whispri wrote:This suggests otherwise. So would the very update this thread is dedicated to, what with the pear being devoured off Turn. Upkeep is something's that's paid to avoid disbanding, food is something that's eaten to avoid starvation. Erfians of the race of men seem to be human, so the need to absorb nutrients would still be there. There's no reason to think that an endless day would leave biology kicking it's heals with nothing to do.


It is explained in the Summer Update that Provisions (that is food made by Units from the environment) decrease the cost of Upkeep (but never to 0). Erfworld units do feel hunger, but they do not need to feed that hunger.

A Turn that lasts 100 hours by our standard does not require extra food for the Unit. To survive, you need only one day's Upkeep per day, and no more, no matter how long the Day lasts in hours. The Turn is as long as you need it to be, and that is part of what the Natural Predictamancy determines at Dawn.

Whispri wrote:As for the 'Upkeep at Dawn' thing, as per this Klog, it's possible to do things like create Golems and Uncroak the dead off-Turn. Thus a Side with a Turn late in the day could dodge upkeep by creating fresh Units after dawn, but prior to their own Turn. Therefore, Upkeep must be paid at the start of Turn.


Small nitpick. Uncroaked and other magically created units do not have Upkeep.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 027

Postby Housellama » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:17 pm

Kreistor wrote:
Housellama wrote:Wow, I sparked a lot of debate! Good, that was the intent.

Re: Potential paradox about Battlespaces and Turn order: No possible paradox exists. Why? Very simple answer. It's MAGIC.


Nothing Rob has created so far has dodged basic logic with that excuse. So I'm rejecting it based on a complete lack of foundation for your position. Taking that position, you can believe or rationalize anything you want, which is of absolutely no interest to me, so just ignore me while I assume basic logic functions in Erfworld.

With Stupidworld physics, things have to be explained and consistent.


Logic, the foundation for determining my paradox, is not Physics and has so far never been violated.


You do realize that we're working in a world where people can predict the future and change people's luck and cast freaking fireballs, right? Those are all within the "physics" of the system. Why? It's magic. That's the point. Erfworld doesn't need to worry about paradoxes because it simply sees the future and sets it up so that there is no paradox.

I'm not saying "Oh everyone takes their turns all at the same time!" No. I'm not talking about anything that happens inside the bubbles. I'm talking about how the bubbles are set up in the first place. And since it's Predictamancy, Erfworld knows in advance which armies are going to do what and creates Battlespaces accordingly. Within each individual Battlespace, Turn Order still applies. Outside the bubbles, once they are set up, there's absolutely no reason that each individual bubble can't be resolved all at the same time. They are all isolated in space and time. Erfworld has already established that when the bubbles/Battlespaces were placed. Each one's like a little snowglobe. Once the snowglobes are built, it's just a matter of metaphorically shaking them up and watching them go.

I really don't see the problem here. We've already had it established in Canon that it's Natural Predictamancy, and that Predictamancy is always right. We've also established that magic is an inherent part of Erfworld's physics and can do things that would otherwise be unexplainable. Is your objection that you don't believe that Erf can make those predictions? I can go get the quotes from Clay and Delphie that flat out say that Predictamancy is always right.

Kreistor wrote:
Whispri wrote:This suggests otherwise. So would the very update this thread is dedicated to, what with the pear being devoured off Turn. Upkeep is something's that's paid to avoid disbanding, food is something that's eaten to avoid starvation. Erfians of the race of men seem to be human, so the need to absorb nutrients would still be there. There's no reason to think that an endless day would leave biology kicking it's heals with nothing to do.


It is explained in the Summer Update that Provisions (that is food made by Units from the environment) decrease the cost of Upkeep (but never to 0). Erfworld units do feel hunger, but they do not need to feed that hunger.

A Turn that lasts 100 hours by our standard does not require extra food for the Unit. To survive, you need only one day's Upkeep per day, and no more, no matter how long the Day lasts in hours. The Turn is as long as you need it to be, and that is part of what the Natural Predictamancy determines at Dawn.

Whispri wrote:As for the 'Upkeep at Dawn' thing, as per this Klog, it's possible to do things like create Golems and Uncroak the dead off-Turn. Thus a Side with a Turn late in the day could dodge upkeep by creating fresh Units after dawn, but prior to their own Turn. Therefore, Upkeep must be paid at the start of Turn.


Small nitpick. Uncroaked and other magically created units do not have Upkeep.


I'm not sure that regular Uncroaked have no Upkeep. Stanley makes a joke about the Uncroaked Warlords being cheap to feed. Wanda also makes a note that the Decrypted have no upkeep. I don't think I can remember ever seeing anyone say that regular Uncroaked have no upkeep. I'm also not sure we've seen anything anywhere that said Golems require no upkeep. Otherwise, there'd be no reason not to crank out Golems as fast as you can make them all the time. Charlie would certainly have more than 600 if they didn't have some kind of limit.
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