Summer Updates - 038

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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Kaminobob » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:55 am

Frogpop wrote:I wonder if Parson the game master could come up with a scenario to teach all his warlord disciples that "the only winning move is not to play", thereby coming into his own as erfworld's ultimate hippiemancer.


Shhh... you'll anger moose.

Anyway, chiming in on the enjoyment of Jack's antics. Looking forward to a spate of delicious updates.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Ronfar » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:02 am

Frogpop wrote:I wonder if Parson the game master could come up with a scenario to teach all his warlord disciples that "the only winning move is not to play", thereby coming into his own as erfworld's ultimate hippiemancer.


Indeed.

You know, there's another way Parson could end Erfworld's seemingly endless war. He could win. Erfworld looks very much like 4X game to me, and when one player in a 4X game achieves a victory condition, the game ends. "Conquer every other side" is almost always a valid victory condition, but might Erfworld have another one - perhaps something like"Get all the Arkentools and become a Titan" - that we don't know about yet?
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Lord Kasavin » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:21 am

Culture victory or go home.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Anton Gaist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:03 am

"I probably should, if I'm supposed to do Mathamancy. But I forget what kind of math it even was." He strained to remember. "Something to do with triangles? Or is that just the name fooling me?"


Has anyone considered that maybe Gotti is forgetting the details of his life back on Earth? First he forgot what trigonometry is, maybe he's forgotten more than just that? Honestly, once you learn trig, you can't really forget what it's about.

I'm thinking Neverending Story, the longer Bastian he stayed in Phantásien, the more he forgot about his life on Earth, and without those memories he could never return.

So Gotti, "Tu, was du willst"?
Gentlemen, I like war.
I like trench war, I like Blitzkrieg, I like the offensive, I like the defensive.
I truly love each and every kind of war man can wage on a tabletop game.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby DevilDan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:10 am

Except he could win by decrypting everyone to his point of view.
They could not possibly win. Every man knew this with certainty, and lo it was glorious.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Anton Gaist » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:35 am

DevilDan wrote:Except he could win by decrypting everyone to his point of view.


Or to Wanda's, at least.
Gentlemen, I like war.
I like trench war, I like Blitzkrieg, I like the offensive, I like the defensive.
I truly love each and every kind of war man can wage on a tabletop game.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Infidel » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:46 am

cloudbreaker wrote:I don't think Jack was being so literal with his croaking comment, but even if he was, then:

croak = lose curiosity

uncroak = unlose curiosity


nope. Uncroaked don't regain curiosity. Check out Ansom. He isn't curious. He thinks he already knows the answer.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Infidel » Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:52 am

Anton Gaist wrote:
"I probably should, if I'm supposed to do Mathamancy. But I forget what kind of math it even was." He strained to remember. "Something to do with triangles? Or is that just the name fooling me?"


Has anyone considered that maybe Gotti is forgetting the details of his life back on Earth? First he forgot what trigonometry is, maybe he's forgotten more than just that? Honestly, once you learn trig, you can't really forget what it's about.

I'm thinking Neverending Story, the longer Bastian he stayed in Phantásien, the more he forgot about his life on Earth, and without those memories he could never return.

So Gotti, "Tu, was du willst"?


Gotta agree with you there. I learned Algebra over a decade ago. Although I can't remember a single forumla to save my life, I still understand the general theories behind it and the problems that it solves. To forget Trig to the point of "something about triangles" indicates something far more dramatic than standard time based memory loss. Either he was traumatized by trig to the point where his brain is deliberately forgetting, or something about erfworld is making him forget, or yet something else is making him forget. But whatever it is, it's something active not passive forgetfulness.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby CaptainPlatypus » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:00 am

Extra cookie for Calemyr and his Girl Genius reference.

The DM wrote:I mean honestly, what college-educated, smart nerd doesn't know at least basic trig?

Me. Then again, I've gotten lucky enough that it's never been a requirement. We aren't all obsessed with math, you know.

More interesting to me is Lord Kavasin's Civilization reference though. A cultural victory, in Civilization's lore's terms, is when you are so culturally dominant that other nations can't help but be subtly subjugated by your influence. And that seems the only real way for Parson to "win" in Erfworld. He'd be miserable if he won via Conquest or Domination and still had no one to talk to, and Space Race seems unlikely.

Over the short term, I think we're learning that Parson's beginning to forget how horrible he found war when he experienced it firsthand - and I think that will last until he either suffers a major defeat (probable, one way or another, from a story point of view) or has another Gobwin Knob-esque victory by the skin of his teeth.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby KiltedNinja » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:52 am

Great update.
Nice to hear the thought process behind developing animated battle scenarios - very cool idea, and in 3D holographic funkness :)

I gotta admit, I'm on board with everyone else who thinks that Parson's memory has been adversely affected.

I mean, this is Parson.. a dude who's spent presumably many many years playing tabletop war games, designing them himself at points. He's a smart dude, and good with maths - for example, working out odds/ratios/percentages etc, albiet, admittedly with the Bracer - BUT, he knows how to use the bracer to figure them out. IE, he knows which calculations to use the Bracer for. He knows maths, tabletop war games RUN on maths. Anyone, who is remotely interested in math, who remotely likes math, will know at least what Trigonometry is for. May not remember the formulas, but will at least know that it's about triangles.

So, for Parson to "wonder" if it's something to do with triangles, then immediately second-guess himself - Well, to me, that's something VERY important to worry about...
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby dholm » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:12 am

It really isn't that odd.

It's not as if you need trigonometry for tabletop games. While I can remember the basics, I've forgotten the formulas... and I like math. I've just not worked with it for years.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:44 am

Justyn wrote:
PClips wrote:and other activities involving the leveling unit's special abilities that may not even constitute combat.


I'd say leveling from studying like this lies in the realm of "possible, but not as efficient as actually fighting or leading troops".


Also, if Parson ran it in as a competition, it could be made to be even closer to real fighting. If a unit's promotion to warlord depends on winning in the tactical simulation, then there would be pressure to perform. It could be a basic school and then an exam/competition at the end. Even units which don't get promote might get a bonus.

This would also represent the exact opposite of Stanley's "pick the most handsome" method of deciding on who to promote.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby moose o death » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:08 am

Kaminobob wrote:
Frogpop wrote:I wonder if Parson the game master could come up with a scenario to teach all his warlord disciples that "the only winning move is not to play", thereby coming into his own as erfworld's ultimate hippiemancer.


Shhh... you'll anger moose.

Anyway, chiming in on the enjoyment of Jack's antics. Looking forward to a spate of delicious updates.

he wont, but you did.that would make parson a hippy..no mancer involved but it at least follows a logical conclusion. i'm not opposed to that eventuality but i don't believe it's true or likely to happen.

parson isn't a mancer he's just not an erfworlder. some rules don't apply to him, some are extra potent against him. some readers need to learn characters CAN tell lies when giving exposition. not every rule and piece of information the story reveals can be immediately taken as canon for how the erf universe works. that situation is the prime example of when that would occur as it was one erfworlder convincing others NOT to kill someone who is clearly now disabled.the statement was not addressed to us as the readership or to parson who would question the point. it was directed at people who know things we do not. and is most likely meant as a lie.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:11 am

Unclever title wrote:On the note of the decrypted leveling, truth be told we don't even know for sure (unless someone can point it out for me somewhere) that the uncroaked can level. While Stanley makes the point that if the uncroaked warlords are pulled out of battle before victory it counts as a loss and the uncroaked warlords will not level Rob has made it clear to us that an Erfworlder doesn't know what his "experience points" are or when he will next level up, he knows that if he wins enough battles he will eventually level and that's about it.


That's true. Even if uncroaked never leveled, it is possible that nobody really noticed it, since they always decay in a few turns anyway. If leveling takes 20-30 turns, the fact that they don't level wouldn't be obvious.

Ofc, if you have an army of 100 uncroaked and none of them leveled it would be more suspicious. (If on average in a force of 100 level 1's, normally 10+ of them level after a large battle).
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby moose o death » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:17 am

if erfworlders don't know they're exp level maybe they only level based on the results of ONE battle. eg ansom would have to croak an entire group of dwagons single handedly to accumulate enough battle experience in one encounter to make level 11. bogroll killing ansom was so impressive a power mismatch it was worth two levels. etc. just a poorly constructed thought.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby raphfrk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:13 am

KiltedNinja wrote: BUT, he knows how to use the bracer to figure them out. .


I don't know if that is necessarily true. In fact, the bracer clearly has more knowledge built into it about Erfworld than Parson has.

He used it to figure out the odds of a brick hitting a unit. This cannot be done unless you know the mechanics of how the world's "physics" works.

Computing probabilities for battles is even more complex. In civ units are abstracted. The odds of a win depends purely on a single strength number for both sides. If you include all in bonuses, you can determine the number. The win odds are then a simple formula.

It would be like Newton using maths to see if an apple would fall. He already had to know about falling before he could create the maths for his theory. His assumption was that falling was due to a force that pulls any 2 things together.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby HandofShadows » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:20 am

Infidel wrote:
cloudbreaker wrote:I don't think Jack was being so literal with his croaking comment, but even if he was, then:

croak = lose curiosity

uncroak = unlose curiosity


nope. Uncroaked don't regain curiosity. Check out Ansom. He isn't curious. He thinks he already knows the answer.


I don't think Ansom had an curiosity to begin with, so it's not the best example.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby mhangman » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:19 am

Anton Gaist wrote:
Has anyone considered that maybe Gotti is forgetting the details of his life back on Earth? First he forgot what trigonometry is, maybe he's forgotten more than just that? Honestly, once you learn trig, you can't really forget what it's about.

I'm thinking Neverending Story, the longer Bastian he stayed in Phantásien, the more he forgot about his life on Earth, and without those memories he could never return.

So Gotti, "Tu, was du willst"?


I scare from your idea. something like that possiable. if he start to forget who he is, he stop to trying to go back home. he become and erfworld member and act like others
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby imgran » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:31 am

You really don't need to get too exotic to figure out a reason why that would happen.

It's far less likely to be insidious magical influence from the summoning spell as it is to be simple use-it-or-lose it.
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Re: Summer Updates - 038

Postby Sandis » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:51 am

After several minutes of quietly sorting the miniature pieces into boxes, Parson turned to the caster and smirked. "What's the cure for curiosity?"

Jack was studying a map closely, running a finger along it. He did not look up. "Getting croaked," he said.


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