Summer Update - 033

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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby gameboy1234 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:41 pm

raphfrk wrote:
Caster bonus (matched unit types only)
Global: Level/8
Same Hex: Level/2
Same Stack: Level


Sorry for all the posts, I just got to thinking. It might be a bit more likely that your "global caster bonus" is fixed at 1, rather than being dependent on level. So:

Caster bonus (matched unit types only)
Global := 1
Same Hex : Level/2
Same Stack : Level

Or maybe a caster leading any force just gives a flat bonus of 1, and then the matched troops are:

Caster bonus (matched unit types only, replaces bonus of 1 on this troop type)
Same Hex : Level/2
Same Stack : Level

I used to war game a lot too, there's lots of ways this could be mathed out.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:01 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:Sorry for all the posts, I just got to thinking. It might be a bit more likely that your "global caster bonus" is fixed at 1, rather than being dependent on level. So:

Caster bonus (matched unit types only)
Global := 1
Same Hex : Level/2
Same Stack : Level

Or maybe a caster leading any force just gives a flat bonus of 1, and then the matched troops are:

Caster bonus (matched unit types only, replaces bonus of 1 on this troop type)
Same Hex : Level/2
Same Stack : Level

I used to war game a lot too, there's lots of ways this could be mathed out.


Also, from this klog. Croakamancy might give an unusually large bonus. OTOH, it could just be that Wanda is a very high level (but he said croakamancers rather than Wanda).

I think the warlord bonuses must not stack, while caster and warlord bonuses do. Thus, in general, it seems like a good idea to have both.

This means that if Ansom is in the hex, then a warlord would have to have a level higher than 5 to give a better bonus than Ansom. In effect, he makes it so that all stacks in the same hex are effectively led by a level 5 warlord.

In effect, the "warlord bonus" is highest of
- (Chief Warlord's level)/3
- (Highest Warlord in hex)/2
- (Highest Warlord in stack)

The caster bonus (restricted to matched unit types), is highest of
- (Chief caster)/8
- (Highest caster in hex)/2
- (Highest caster in stack)

The stack bonus is
- number of units in the stack

This means that in a stack of 8, with Ansom and Wanda, the bonus would be
Warlord: +10
Caster: +8
Stack: +8

This gives a bonus of 26. It would be surprising if the pliers gave less than similar to the other bonuses.

From, this klog:
"For instance, groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations."

Maybe the stack bonus caps at 8 units rather than +8?

So, maybe, stack bonus is
- (number of units)/2 (capped at 8)

This gives +4 for an 8 man stack, and also gives +0 for a 1 man "stack" which makes sense. That gives a max of +4 for a stack.

Bogroll (in the same link) has an attack of 5. He is garrison, so maybe that is unusual, but Ansom specifically says that his units are heavies. Thus, the base attack for his units would need to be reasonably high.

Assuming a base attack of 5, and the above scores, then the total attack would be

Base: 5
Warlord: +10
Caster: +8
Stack: +4

That gives 3 points for the artefact bonus, which seems pretty low for an artefact. OTOH, the unit in question was the worst unit in the stack.

One final option would be that Wanda's bonus is actually the artefact bonus and not her croakamancy bonus. Alternatively, it is a combination of the 2 bonuses.

It is unclear if Bogroll's attack included Parson's bonus, if so, then his attack is really only 3. This gives another 2 points to the artefact bonus.

Even +5 isn't major. One option would be to have it as +5 to all in the hex and not give a higher bonus to the stack.

One other thing, presumably the "in-stack" bonus only applies to at most 8 units, otherwise it would be worth having large stacks just for the warlord bonus.

Finally, maybe the stack bonus isn't actually a stack bonus, it just refers to the bonuses you get for being a in stack with a unit that gives bonuses.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:15 pm

raphfrk wrote:I think the warlord bonuses must not stack, while caster and warlord bonuses do. Thus, in general, it seems like a good idea to have both.

This means that if Ansom is in the hex, then a warlord would have to have a level higher than 5 to give a better bonus than Ansom. In effect, he makes it so that all stacks in the same hex are effectively led by a level 5 warlord.


the bonus of warlord and having the chief warlord in the hex does add. We know that since Vinie explained the transylvito style.


raphfrk wrote:From, this klog:
"For instance, groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations."

Maybe the stack bonus caps at 8 units rather than +8?


An old question: does the klog say, that only up to 8 units in stack get a bonus, or that the units in a stack get only a bonus up to 8? I'm really happy, that I'm not the only one who got confused by that entry, and I'm not a illiterate idiot. :D
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby k33g0rz » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:56 pm

Where's Jack?
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:58 pm

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
raphfrk wrote:I think the warlord bonuses must not stack, while caster and warlord bonuses do. Thus, in general, it seems like a good idea to have both.

This means that if Ansom is in the hex, then a warlord would have to have a level higher than 5 to give a better bonus than Ansom. In effect, he makes it so that all stacks in the same hex are effectively led by a level 5 warlord.


the bonus of warlord and having the chief warlord in the hex does add. We know that since Vinie explained the transylvito style.


The only way for that to work is if Ansom's bonus is the total bonus for him being present.

It might be something like

Chief Warlord bonus
Capital: (Chief Warlord's level)
Global: (Chief Warlord's level)/3
Hex: (Chief Warlord's level)/5

Warlord bonus
Stack: (Warlord's level)/2

Chief Caster bonus
Global: level/8
Hex: level/3

Caster bonus
Stack: level/3

Ansom would give a bonus of
Global: 10/3 = +3
Hex: 10/5 = +2
Stack: 10/2 = +5

Total global: +3
Total hex : +5
Total stack: +10

Wanda would have to be level 9, and would give
Global: 9/8 = +1
Hex: 9/3 = +3
Stack: 9/2 = +4

Total global: +1
Total hex: +4
Total stack: +8

However, it doesn't match Parson's score. If he is level 2, he would add 1 point to his personal stack only (and even then only as a standard warlord).

Ofc, the other option is that Ansom's stack would be made stronger by adding a standard warlord.

Parson says that his +2 bonus applies to all in the Capital, he could be talking about the in-hex bonus, but if he was only level 2, then that bonus wouldn't given anything.

An old question: does the klog say, that only up to 8 units in stack get a bonus, or that the units in a stack get only a bonus up to 8? I'm really happy, that I'm not the only one who got confused by that entry, and I'm not a illiterate idiot. :D


I think based on the current update it has to be less than +8.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby DevilDan » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:22 pm

k33g0rz wrote:Where's Jack?

Not with the uber-strike force, certainly. At best he could only use his foolamancy within a single hex, so unless the column is going to break up or otherwise be reconfigured into a single hex force.

raphfrk wrote:Also, from this klog. Croakamancy might give an unusually large bonus. OTOH, it could just be that Wanda is a very high level (but he said croakamancers rather than Wanda).


Seems pretty cut-and-dried: croakamancers give a huge bonus to uncroaked. No mention of Wanda specifically when Parson states that.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby raphfrk » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:38 pm

DevilDan wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Also, from this klog. Croakamancy might give an unusually large bonus. OTOH, it could just be that Wanda is a very high level (but he said croakamancers rather than Wanda).


Seems pretty cut-and-dried: croakamancers give a huge bonus to uncroaked. No mention of Wanda specifically when Parson states that.


Well, the question is if Croakamancers give a much larger bonus to their unit type than other casters. The implication is that Sizemore doesn't give as large a bonus to Golems.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby cloudbreaker » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:41 pm

Anyone want to bet that Wanda was the unit in the stack with the 'low' attack of 30? You know, since she wouldn't get a bonus from herself for being decrypted. And they never say what the highest attack power of a unit in the stack is. If Ansom doesn't get a +10 bonus from himself (unclear if he does or doesn't), it seems likely he may have had the second-lowest attack in their stack.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:15 am

cloudbreaker wrote:Anyone want to bet that Wanda was the unit in the stack with the 'low' attack of 30? You know, since she wouldn't get a bonus from herself for being decrypted. And they never say what the highest attack power of a unit in the stack is. If Ansom doesn't get a +10 bonus from himself (unclear if he does or doesn't), it seems likely he may have had the second-lowest attack in their stack.


He's still a high level royal warlord; and Wanda would be wielding a powerful attuned arkentool. Too many unknowns.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby moose o death » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:54 am

which raises another question again...is ansom a royal? can you still be a royal classed unit if you've been forcibly defected posthumously? umm extra points if that makes as much sense to you, as i thought it did when i wrote it.

i'll steer clear of the maths stuff, i had to write the damage equation for our game design taking into account all the stats of the player and that bent my head pretty badly. factoring luck is the hardest part. i'm still not sure about how to handle equipment with stat modifiers.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby KiltedNinja » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:53 am

Interesting discussion - lots of new facts'n'figures to throw around.

However..

k33g0rz wrote:Where's Jack?


I second the motion! ..er, Question. Any ideas?

DevilDan wrote:Not with the uber-strike force, certainly. At best he could only use his foolamancy within a single hex, so unless the column is going to break up or otherwise be reconfigured into a single hex force.


I'm wondering if we can take that for granted..? We saw reference to him performing feats of foolamancy that shocked others.. (Can't remember specifics at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it was when Stanley was flying his dwagons at the Archons when they were doing their display)

...so where is he now...
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby badninja » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:43 am

Ok, This new part to the story is interesting, now will we see as GW begins to take over the world more? I hope we can see everyone's reactions when they see the people leading the charge. This story just keeps getting better and better.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:25 am

badninja wrote:Ok, This new part to the story is interesting, now will we see as GW begins to take over the world more? I hope we can see everyone's reactions when they see the people leading the charge. This story just keeps getting better and better.


What? No! I thought we were rid of him!

KiltedNinja wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Not with the uber-strike force, certainly. At best he could only use his foolamancy within a single hex, so unless the column is going to break up or otherwise be reconfigured into a single hex force.


I'm wondering if we can take that for granted..? We saw reference to him performing feats of foolamancy that shocked others.. (Can't remember specifics at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it was when Stanley was flying his dwagons at the Archons when they were doing their display)


That's not something I recall reading in that manner. I'm sure that projecting Stanley's head is child's play compared to cloaking two dozen dwagons, even ineffectually.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby BarGamer » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:38 am

gameboy1234 wrote:
Angband wrote:Hmmm, what sort of item would a Black Torus with White Lettering be?

There'll be a brief intelligence report just before the defenders get defeated.


For some reason, I read that as "get deflated." XD
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby Yosarian » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:14 pm

DevilDan wrote:
KiltedNinja wrote:
DevilDan wrote:Not with the uber-strike force, certainly. At best he could only use his foolamancy within a single hex, so unless the column is going to break up or otherwise be reconfigured into a single hex force.


I'm wondering if we can take that for granted..? We saw reference to him performing feats of foolamancy that shocked others.. (Can't remember specifics at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it was when Stanley was flying his dwagons at the Archons when they were doing their display)


That's not something I recall reading in that manner. I'm sure that projecting Stanley's head is child's play compared to cloaking two dozen dwagons, even ineffectually.


Remember, Jack could cloak entire CITIES, and apparently do so from anywhere in his kingdom whenever the he was told someone was going to be close to them. We don't know if he's FULLY recovered back to that point now, but he seems to be.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby Yosarian » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:18 pm

Sokrotes wrote:So i noticed no one touched on this subject yet, perhaps cause its so obvious, but i wanted to point out the strategic significance of Warchalking. Not only is it the closest town to GK making it an obvious choice but more important it has farms. Ive played many games like Age of Empires, Starecraft, and various others where you have a main base and other smaller places to gather resources. The main source or power for GK has been its gems and thanks to Sizemore this has given them a huge amount of power. But now they have a way to get food to GK. They didnt need food for the uncroaked but they do for things like twolls and gobwins. Even though food just "pops" i believe it cant pop unless u have some resource available to make it, similar to moneymancy i suppose, stuffamancy?


My impression was that farms, like mines, give you money every turn (I think it was implied when we heard about how the kingdom FAQ used to work); and then that it costs money every turn to pay for a unit's upkeep, which then makes food pop for them. (I think that was implied when Tool said "your food better pop, considering the upkeep you're costing us" or something like that.) Even rebuilding an entire city just costs money. I think that the economic system in erfworld has only one resource, money; it's not like the kind of strategy games where you have to worry about money, food, and lumber, or whatever.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby joosy » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:02 pm

Yosarian wrote:
Remember, Jack could cloak entire CITIES, and apparently do so from anywhere in his kingdom whenever the he was told someone was going to be close to them. We don't know if he's FULLY recovered back to that point now, but he seems to be.


Cities count as a single hex for the defending/occupying forces. They consist of multiple hexes (or zones) for attacking forces. You are assuming that he cast his spell from anywhere in the kingdom. So far, the knowledge we have from the comic states that foolamancers can only cast spells in their own hex. We also have evidence that those spells do not last outside of the hex. Ergo, Jack would have had to be in the city hex to cast the spell. And he may not have cloaked the entire city but cast diversions/distractions to draw foreign units away as was alluded to in the comic.

Evidence that Foolamancers must be in the same stack they are veiling :
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... k1/064.jpg - panel 3.

Evidence that Foolamancy only lasts within a single hex:
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... k1/115.jpg - panel 11 (2nd to last)

Evidence that Jack could also cast distractions and evidence that he was in the same hex:
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... k1/107.jpg - panel 7

Evidence that cities (at least Gobwin knob) have several 'zones/hexes' but act as a single zone for defenders vs attackers:
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... 1/098a.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... k1/121.jpg - last panel

Although wild and fantastical speculation seems the accepted norm on the forums, a simple read through the comic will reveal a lot of the arguments for/against most of them. Unless of course you consider yourself the Parson Gotti of the forums and plan to outspeculate/defy all pre-determined rules :)
Last edited by joosy on Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby DevilDan » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:24 pm

Wow. Very good, Joosy.

I'll also add that I've wondered if Jack could use the Magic Kingdom portals as a way to travel nearly instantaneously from one Faq city to another. Of course, Faq might have had such a good predictamancer and the distances involved could have been so short that Jack could have traveled around, on fast gwiffons, to where enemy units are going and cast the distractions while they are still well away from the cities.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby joosy » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:59 pm

Yosarian wrote:My impression was that farms, like mines, give you money every turn (I think it was implied when we heard about how the kingdom FAQ used to work); and then that it costs money every turn to pay for a unit's upkeep, which then makes food pop for them. (I think that was implied when Tool said "your food better pop, considering the upkeep you're costing us" or something like that.) Even rebuilding an entire city just costs money. I think that the economic system in erfworld has only one resource, money; it's not like the kind of strategy games where you have to worry about money, food, and lumber, or whatever.


You are correct, in that most 'resources' like farms, mines, etc. are used to create things which are either used or converted to schmuckers (or whatever they call their money) thats just 'moneymancy'. However, things harvested/mined can also be used as is. Jillian, when taking on provisions, speared the fish called Wanda, Transylvito troops in the field took on additional provisions via the big 'horned' sheep. However, provisions like cheese, salami, feegs.. er. figs, etc. 'popped' in the larder in Gobwin Knob. Transylvito troops in the field had their rations 'pop' for them and I assume schmuckers were deducted from the Transylvito treasury as a result. Same for the rebuilding of Gobwin Knob. Moneymancy appears to be merely the art of converting stuff into 'money' and vice versa - its a quick way to get stuff that you would otherwise have to create by hand.

e.g. I'm sure there are stonemasons out there but they only do work for cities or factions that don't have the treasuries to pop their defensive walls or garrisons. Or there are factions with natural tendencies for certain abilities or 'stuff' (marbits/gobwins for mining/tunnelling)

Now.. Stuffamancy.. the creating of things from nothing. Apparently that is a subject of debate in the happiest place on earth (or the Magic Kingdom to others); where does the 'stuff' come from? Is it pre-made or does the caster actually summon it into being? I'm sure those are some interesting arguments/discussions to be sure.
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Re: Summer Update - 033

Postby Tiger » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:56 pm

DevilDan wrote:Of course, Faq might have had such a good predictamancer and the distances involved could have been so short that Jack could have traveled around, on fast gwiffons, to where enemy units are going and cast the distractions while they are still well away from the cities.

If Jillian's slower gwiffon can make it from Faq's eastern border to a city that is likely well to the south of its southern border in only two turns, I think it's rather likely that Jack could easily move from any one of Faq's three cities to any one of its other cities in a single turn.
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