Book 2 – Page 69

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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:17 pm

Kreistor wrote:Prove that Units are devoted to their Side and not their Ruler. You presume it for the purposes of this discussion, but the conclusion isn't true, unless the assumption can be proven.


"Ansom was again having difficulty understanding his Overlord. He could not hate his Ruler. That would be against his own nature, to say nothing of the will of the Titans. But being alone with Stanley the Tool always seemed to put him in mind of those times when ending this man's life had been all he desired." http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png

"He loved her. There was no other word for it. He remembered hating her. He remembered nearly everything from his life as a Prince of Jetstone. None of it mattered. His life was hers, so very literally." http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... mWanda.jpg

I can't actually prove anything, obviously. None of us can, since we can't subject Erfworld to experimentation. But, based on the above passages, it seems pretty clear to me that, if Ansom has devotion for anything, it's not for Stanley, so the ability to be devoted to a side more than the ruler seems to at least be an option.

But I'm not stating my suggested interpretation should be canon. I'm simply offering it as a plausible explanation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Lamech » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:19 pm

Oberon wrote:Ah, and now you're crediting Stanley with the wit necessary to determine that Parson would order a trimancer link and uncroak the volcano. Nice! Stan Lee Coyote, super genius.
If Stanley didn't see the super link coming he still correctly concluded that Parson could not achieve victory. Sans super link he would have been croaked. Which still gives him the correct assessment of the situation. Parson could not achieve victory.
oslecamo2_temp wrote:
How diferent is a decrypted's fanatism to Wanda from any other unit's fanatism to their side'xs ruler?
I think that decryption just makes smallish changes, and really just ends up flipping a few things. For example the Archons simply have replaced there loyalty too Charlie with loyalty to Wanda. For crying out loud there was of processing this was "We know have the full-package to GK" That's something they did when they were Charles comm units. Ansom didn't start gushing about how much he loved Wanda. He started gushing about his replacement for royalty. I bet he just fell in Wanda using his normal poorly picking some one to start falling in love with tactic. Ossomer, still likes his father and such, he still believes in "nobility", he is simply loyal to Wanda and Stanley now. So basically I think the devotion of the decrypted is pretty well identical too what they used to feel towards there ruler. Compare to turnamancy where the guy now feels super-calm as opposed to jittery.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:07 am

MarbitChow wrote:I can't actually prove anything, obviously. None of us can, since we can't subject Erfworld to experimentation. But, based on the above passages, it seems pretty clear to me that, if Ansom has devotion for anything, it's not for Stanley, so the ability to be devoted to a side more than the ruler seems to at least be an option.

But I'm not stating my suggested interpretation should be canon. I'm simply offering it as a plausible explanation.


One person, one case, is not evidence of a generality. It does not even make it a plausible generality. You can find someone to be an example of anything you want, if you believe everyone is a cookie cutter copy of everyone else. All Erfworlders are barking mad. Proof? Jack when he when his mind was all busted up. See? One individual in one situation is not evidence of a generality. (especially when that unit is a totally mentally-rewritten mind-slave to a Unit that serves the Ruler -- uncroaked are not evidence of anyone except uncroaked).

For you to be right, you need to prove that Wanda is devoted to her Side... after she risked betraying FAQ and later croaking+uncroaking Banhammer without Stanley saying a word to her about it. (She states clearly that she is a servant of Fate.) You need to prove Jack is loyal to GK, after he muttered under his breath to Jillian to try turning him again later. Units Turn without Turnamancy... every Side has tried that tactic. If it wasn't possible, no one would bother. If they were all Loyal to their Side, no one would ever Turn. And Archons state clearly that tehir only thoguhts were for serving Charlie, not their Side.

I am not arguing that all people are devoted to their Ruler. Wanda clearly is not. But neither is she devoted to her Side.

I am arguing against any one motivation for all Erfworlders. I am arguing that they are all individuals, with individual motivations, individual rationalizations and justifications. And in that context, no one can use a generality to explain Bea or her army's position.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Dr Pepper » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:29 am

Lamech wrote:So basically I think the devotion of the decrypted is pretty well identical too what they used to feel towards there ruler. Compare to turnamancy where the guy now feels super-calm as opposed to jittery.


He feels super calm because his previous side's motif was caffeine.
Read, like there won't be a movie
Game, like the die rolls don't matter
Filk, like everyone is tone deaf anyway

10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby kreszantas » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:10 am

Kreistor wrote:
kreszantas wrote:To answer your question look no further than Benjamin refusing Don King's order for the gem to Jetstone, side over ruler.


That's the Obedience rule exception in action. Disobedience of an order is allowed when the Unit feels it is against a higher purpose, or not in the best interest of the Ruler.

In a directly parallel situation to the one you list, Book 1 Comic 5, Wanda specifically states that she thinks Stanley's mistake would lead to his, not his Side's, downfall.

And this is where free will enters into it, as well as the differing hidden Natural Thinkamancy stats of Obedience, Loyalty, and Duty. Disobedience depends on what Higher Purpose the Unit can create.

For Wanda, it is Fate. She is guided by Fate, not her Side and not her Ruler. For Benjamin, I disagree, it is his Ruler... whom he calls a friend. For Caesar, I expect it's his Side now, since he suspects his Ruler is trying to get him killed.

In other words, again, you cannot generalize mental attitudes so easily in Erfworld. As much as we view teh world as a game board, the inhabitants are human with ambition, desire, and purpose. The pieces cannot be so pigeonholed, because they think for themselves, sometimes very creatively.


I am not sure what you are reading but I am comparing loyality to one's side in http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-21.jpg based on the actions of all the "loyal", "obedient" and "duty" bound individuals of Transylvito to the side surviving intact as it needs to make its schmucker payments when it's turn begins. Ceasar is the one causing the most trouble in "Don's eyes", therefore is a threat to the side as the Ruler sees it. Not sure how that is a generality. Benny is the one that triggers the event and established that duty to the side is more important than the ruler in a Text long ago. (read the poem carefully and you may find it)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:14 am

Kreistor wrote:I am not arguing that all people are devoted to their Ruler. Wanda clearly is not. But neither is she devoted to her Side.

I am arguing against any one motivation for all Erfworlders. I am arguing that they are all individuals, with individual motivations, individual rationalizations and justifications. And in that context, no one can use a generality to explain Bea or her army's position.


I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'm not trying to prove any sweeping generality. My post was simply in response to the question "How different is a decrypted's fanaticism to Wanda from any other unit's fanaticism to their side's ruler?" My point was that it appears that other units don't necessarily have fanaticism to their ruler, but have perfectly logical motivations to explain why their behavior might appear to be similar (i.e. preservation of their side). Wanda's enforced fanaticism does not appear to match normal unit's reactions to their own ruler.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 69

Postby Kreistor » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:19 am

kreszantas wrote:I am not sure what you are reading but I am comparing loyality to one's side in http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -04-21.jpg based on the actions of all the "loyal", "obedient" and "duty" bound individuals of Transylvito to the side surviving intact as it needs to make its schmucker payments when it's turn begins. Ceasar is the one causing the most trouble in "Don's eyes", therefore is a threat to the side as the Ruler sees it. Not sure how that is a generality. Benny is the one that triggers the event and established that duty to the side is more important than the ruler in a Text long ago. (read the poem carefully and you may find it)


Total misunderstanding on my part. Sorry.
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