Book 2 – Page 59

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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Sieggy » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:21 am

. . . someone, please kill the spammer . . .

Remember that right now, none of the GK forces can leave the Garrison zone, as it's still not their turn - they're trapped there right now. If Slately and Trem (and casters) can make it outside the Garrison into the city, they're safe until such time as GK takes ALL the Garrison sub-zones. At that point, I'm not sure if that constitutes victory which then gives GK free run of the city or not. However, Slately has used NO move, and can get clear before having to end the turn. Trem has used some move getting from Expository Bridge back to Spacerock, but if they're using the relay system, then they can get to a place of safety before the turn ends.

However, this is predicated on their being able to safely leave the Garrison, which Slately's dithering had made chancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby ryanroyce » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:37 am

<tinfoilhat>
There's still Charlie's bounty to consider, which I expect Slately to learn about once Tram comes upstairs to fetch him. I highly doubt Slately even knows about that yet.

If Slately learns of this, it will likely lead to the croaking of Archons for the bounty and will almost certainly involve Ossomer's inner turmoil. Possibly, Ossomer the Sad Panda does a Face-Turn and becomes instrumental in dusting the Archons, maybe even capturing one, and then it is Ossomer who stays behind to lead Spacerock's forces against Sylvia's dwagons while Tram escapes on the reacquired flying carpet.

OTOH, I would be disappointed if Tram left town before getting the chance to talk to Parson face-to-face... and getting Trammenis the Heir out early would sap most of the dramatic tension out of the story... so it shouldn't happen until the *peak* of the story's climax... but I am certain that King Tramennis will eventually get his Fabulousness enthroned at Jetstone City. The mere existence of a "backup capital" demands that it be used (see: Chekov's Gun), as does the 'taur relay.

Also, I don't think Trammenis or Slately are necessarily aware that the portal room has been taken. Part of the evacuation plan may involve getting the Casters to the portal room safely so that they can rejoin King Trammenis in Jetstone City via the Magic Kingdom. If Trammenis leads that mission, it could lead to Tram finally meeting Parson and plenty of dramatic tension. Tramennis vs Parson, Healomancer v Croakamancer, army v army in cramped quarters, all while Sylvia brings the tower crashing down around them... it would be Awesome. Titanic, even.
</tinfoilhat>
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:15 am

imany wrote:To clarify -my- point, it doesn't matter whether or not Trammenis is better geared to command. If Slately designates Trammenis heir and orders him to safety, Trammenis would have to comply or face the consequences. Slately's ability to do this seems to depend purely on whether or not he can scrape together the funds to designate Trammenis. Since I don't see that happening this turn, I think you're right in your original point.


I do not disagree. My point is that Jetstone DOES NOT need to do this to survive, and that Slately is being selfish. Yes, pursuing martyrdom at the expense of an ally can be selfish.

imany wrote:That said, yes, Slately appears to be less capable than Trammenis. This is based purely on the fact that Slately has always delegated--we don't actually know his tactical capability because he's always had someone else acting as Chief Warlord. I would also argue that his former heirs were not entirely incompetent--apparently Ansom is a capable warlord, so Slately's judgment may not be entirely bad, merely colored by Royal snootiness.


I would respectfully disagree - several times during this whole encounter, Slately has expressed short-sighted views on what was going on. Trammenis immediately realized what Parson was doing with the food harvesting, while Slately was demanding T. croak everyone. In another case, Slately actually broke protocol by trying to give orders over his Chief Warlord's head. So yes - I feel that this is evidence that Slately isn't much of a strategist.

imany wrote:Slately's wish has a streak of selfishness, but it isn't just about his ego--going out in glory would be a perk. He wants to make sure Jetsone would be secure under Trammenis' leadership, not his, because he finally understands Trammenis will put the good of Jetstone before anything else. Slately doesn't believe in his own ability to do so, apparently, so he would rather lead a battle in Trammenis' place to ensure the future of Jetstone.


And look at the cost?

1) Transylvito will be a few turns from bankruptcy. If nothing else, it will cripple their war effort.
2) Jetstone will have a huge debt over their heads, coming in nine turns. It seems impossible they could meet that, unless maybe they started disbanding units.
3) With Trammenis leading the fight at Spacerock, Jetstone has a small but plausible chance to croak Wanda. With Slately in charge, those odds fall to virtually nill. Slately and the other Jetstone troops who stay behind are going to wind up Decrypted, further strengthening their enemy.

This is altruism? This is doing the noble thing?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby theseus2x » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:20 am

ryanroyce wrote:<tinfoilhat>
There's still Charlie's bounty to consider, which I expect Slately to learn about once Tram comes upstairs to fetch him. I highly doubt Slately even knows about that yet.

If Slately learns of this, it will likely lead to the croaking of Archons for the bounty and will almost certainly involve Ossomer's inner turmoil. Possibly, Ossomer the Sad Panda does a Face-Turn and becomes instrumental in dusting the Archons, maybe even capturing one, and then it is Ossomer who stays behind to lead Spacerock's forces against Sylvia's dwagons while Tram escapes on the reacquired flying carpet.


In theory, a perfectly good idea. Given the situation, however, I believe its far too late to try targeting the Archons.

Besides - Slately despises Charlie with a paranoia bordering on insanity. Look how he reacted when he found out about Jillian. Jillian had just saved his kingdom, and he immediately accuses her of being a traitor, because HE ordered no royal to deal with Charlie.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby ryanroyce » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:44 am

theseus2x wrote:
ryanroyce wrote:<tinfoilhat>
There's still Charlie's bounty to consider, which I expect Slately to learn about once Tram comes upstairs to fetch him. I highly doubt Slately even knows about that yet.

If Slately learns of this, it will likely lead to the croaking of Archons for the bounty and will almost certainly involve Ossomer's inner turmoil. Possibly, Ossomer the Sad Panda does a Face-Turn and becomes instrumental in dusting the Archons, maybe even capturing one, and then it is Ossomer who stays behind to lead Spacerock's forces against Sylvia's dwagons while Tram escapes on the reacquired flying carpet.


In theory, a perfectly good idea. Given the situation, however, I believe its far too late to try targeting the Archons.

Besides - Slately despises Charlie with a paranoia bordering on insanity. Look how he reacted when he found out about Jillian. Jillian had just saved his kingdom, and he immediately accuses her of being a traitor, because HE ordered no royal to deal with Charlie.


Desperate times call for desperate measures and Charlie is the only source of funds that Slately has available (provided that Charlie has some means of providing the Schmuckers immediately, of course). Besides, Slately has had a change of heart since then.

Also, it isn't too late to croak the Archons. There are still archers and several flying units on the tower, possibly even some Tower Defenses. If Ossomer turns and provides them with his Leadership bonus, it would be very doable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby kagato23 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:09 am

Oberon wrote:Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.


It actually does. Just like Wanda at the beginning, Caesar believes this will lead to their sides destruction. Long term goals are irrelevant compared to the pressing right now when that is "right now we are close to annihilation". Caesar sees the long term as follows:
1. Jetstone is croaked anyway. Give them money, they are still croaked and we are broke. They won't survive to pay us back.
2. We give them that money, we are bankrupt, they are croaked, they aren't paying it back.
3. We start having disbanding we are so broke, Carpool and maybe GK chop apart what's left.

He truly believes his side is heading for destruction if they do this. You can say he's wrong or shortsighted because of this(and he might not be wrong), but you can't say he's disloyal. He's actually very loyal. So loyal he bet his life on it because he placed what he thinks the kingdom needs over his own well being. Even Ben expected him to be disbanded. And just because the moment has passed, Caesar must know that doesn't mean it will be forgotten, that he might not be summoned later for that disbanding or just sent off to fight GK by himself or whatnot.

And that's why disbanding him is a horrible idea. If he was going for a coup, right then would have been the time to do it. This guy is loyal to a fault, and if Don disbands him now he deserves the possible revolt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Housellama » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:02 pm

ryanroyce wrote:OTOH, I would be disappointed if Tram left town before getting the chance to talk to Parson face-to-face


Eh. I disagree strongly here. Having them come face to face FIRST is a bad idea, speaking dramatically. You don't leave yourself anywhere to go. One of the cardinal rules is always leave yourself a way to escalate. The only time you should cap out all your options is at the climax of your story, right before you plan to end it.

ryanroyce wrote:and getting Trammenis the Heir out early would sap most of the dramatic tension out of the story... so it shouldn't happen until the *peak* of the story's climax...


Potentially. In terms of story and drama, the whole game changes once Parson arrives. Also, once the King is safely out of the city, Tram has an entirely new set of options. Right now, his very highest priority is getting the King to safety. Once that happens, he should reassess the tactical situation, especially there has been a major change. I'm pretty sure bringing down the tower and Parson arriving counts as a major change. He may decide to take a shot at GK before he retreats.

ryanroyce wrote:but I am certain that King Tramennis will eventually get his Fabulousness enthroned at Jetstone City. The mere existence of a "backup capital" demands that it be used (see: Chekov's Gun), as does the 'taur relay.


No question about that. Jetstone should survive the turn. In my mind, the only open question to be resolved about that is whether or not Slately does.

No, I think what's going to happen is that Slately's going to take his shot at Oss. Parson's going to get tangled up a bit in the MK. Sylvia's going to bring down the tower. Tram's going to save Slately from himself, just before Oss, who has found he really doesn't have a crisis of conscience, deals the killing blow. Parson is going to arrive just in time to see them get away. Maggie will open a Thinkamancy to Tram. Parson will congratulate him, and they'll have their first conversation over Tram's successful escape. And then it'll be game booping on, only this time with Parson on the front lines, with his three supporting casters right beside him.

There's my Predictamancy for the month.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:25 pm

Housellama wrote:No question about that. Jetstone should survive the turn. In my mind, the only open question to be resolved about that is whether or not Slately does.

No, I think what's going to happen is that Slately's going to take his shot at Oss. Parson's going to get tangled up a bit in the MK. Sylvia's going to bring down the tower. Tram's going to save Slately from himself, {snip}


and I agree with this up to the point of snippage.

Really, Jetstone was not as doomed as it seemed. Slately, and Jetstone, had an easy out- Wanda's ground troops were locked in the courtyard, the air troops were stuck in the airspace, and Trem had an evac plan for Slately already set up. But noooo, Slately had to go ahead and try be heroic.

My bets, if I were to cast any, would be that Trem makes it, and captures Ossomer partly out of brotherly attachment, part out of curiosity, part out of a desire to emulate Jillian. As long as Slately can't name Trem as heir, he'll live. I expect at least an archon to croak, whereupon Slately, discovering that 25000 Schmuckers or so mysteriously materialized in the Treasury from somewhere, names Trem as heir, unpins a grenade, swallows it and charges at the purples and Sylvia.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Oberon » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:01 pm

kagato23 wrote:
Oberon wrote:Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.

It actually does. Just like Wanda at the beginning, Caesar believes this will lead to their sides destruction.
There are a few very significant differences between what Wanda did and what Caesar did. So significant that they should not be grouped together as equal examples of commanders refusing orders. Not by a long shot.

1) Wanda disobeyed when she and Stanley were alone. No one overheard her disobey, and no one else even knows it ever happened.

2) Wanda did not stage a turns-long whispering campaign, nor talk down Stanley's decision to other units, in order to convince them to turn to her for confirmation of Stanley's orders.

3) She was called out on the refusal by Stanley, and proceeded to convince him that she was right, and then she gained his permission for her alternative plan.

Caesar cannot say that he acted honorably or loyally or correctly or respectfully. Nor can he say that he's managed to convince Don that he is right. All Caesar can cite as wins for his position is a successful campaign of poisoning the opinions of the other commanders against Don, and of forcing a stand down and overturning Don's order by presenting Don with the lose/lose of starting to disband units in order to attempt to regain his dominance. Don chose to let the rebels live rather than starting the killing. He should have made an example out of Caesar, if only to get rid of his subversive influence, and then allowed the order to be refused. Now Don is in the awkward position of having to wonder which of his other orders will be refused, and when, and at which point does he decide to refuse to allow his policies to be overturned by units who do not share his overall strategy for the side he is supposed to be ruling. Best to take his lumps now, rather than at a far more awkward position in the future.

Put into an analogy, it's like you work in a company as a Board member for the CEO. There are 9 other Board members who also report to this CEO. What is the correct behavior if you feel that your CEO is making a decision which will be disastrous for the company:

1) Approach your CEO privately and state your concerns. Present an alternative solution. Convince him that you are right through logic and persuasion, and never speak of your disagreement with him to any of the other Board members;

-or-

2) Begin openly disparaging your CEOs decision amongst your fellow Board members. When the CEO still doesn't get your point, up your campaign to discredit him. When another Board member comes to you, after you've spent much time previously telling him how poor a decision the CEO is making, and tells you that he's been ordered to do something that he feels is opposite of your contrary plans for the company, don't draw him aside to discuss it, don't approach the CEO with him and discuss it. No, you gather all the Board members around and convince them to march into the CEOs office together and offer him the choice: Fire you all, or back down from the order to the other Board members.

This is the difference between what Wanda did and what Caesar did. Which option do you think is going to result in a longer lasting company? Which do you think better preserves the respect for the office of the CEO and allows him or her to continue to be an effective leader? No matter if it is a corporate or a military environment, option 2) will be disastrous to the organization. Potentially as much or more so than any strategy for the company which the Directory might feel is also disastrous. This is something a thoughtful person should consider long and hard before even contemplating choosing option 2), but then Caesar isn't a thoughtful person.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby imany » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:34 pm

Oberon wrote:This is the difference between what Wanda did and what Caesar did. Which option do you think is going to result in a longer lasting company?


To be fair, Caesar also thought the CEO had decided that investing in sub-prime lending was a good idea, and that the CEO was so convinced of this idea he wasn't going to listen unless it was the whole board telling him he was wrong. Also, Caesar -has- a board, Wanda doesn't and never did.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Scott Frantz » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:54 am

There's a second big difference between Wanda and Ceaser - Ceaser (And the rest of the TV warlords) respect Don. Nobody in GK truly respects Stanley.

The other big thing is that most CEOs can't end their underlings lives with a thought ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MichaelR138 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:30 pm

Oberon wrote:
kagato23 wrote:No, the long term goals COULD see TV in a much better postion. Could being the operative word here.
Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.
theseus2x wrote:Trammenis had a good plan that seemed almost guaranteed to preserve the side. And now Slately feels bad! So instead of going along with it, he not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. So instead of going along with [Tram's plan], [Slately] not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. Slately must know Jetstone will have a hell of a time repaying the loan in nine turns (with interest), but - as usual - he cares only for himself. This supposed "revelation" he's had has simply led him to the wrong conclusion as usual.
Slately switching places with Tram does a whole lot more than just make Slately feel better about himself or allow Slately to go out in a blaze of nobility. Slately's plan offers up regime change. The sole hope for Jetstone now is to be commanded by someone who isn't holding the idiot ball. So let's hope that this is a good week for Tram, because his prior record is spotty. But in any event, Tram is the better hope for Jetstone than Slately, and Slately knows it. Thus, his plan.


I signed up just to respond to this silliness. Don King's recent decisions have A) Lost TV several cities and warlords, B) emptied their treasury to the point that in two turns if the loan is made and something happens to Jetstone TV will not be able to even pay their own upkeep, and C) put a powerful, (funded in large part by TV) unpredictable force on their border that just recently betrayed the RCC2 and is directly responsible for Jetstone's current life or death circumstances. So, to top this off he wants to make a loan to a very shakey side that is unlikely to be able to continue the fight against GK AND repay the loan. Remember that Jetstone has been disbanding troops the last few turns because they cannot pay their own upkeep, so to repay the Don's loan after losing Spacerock, they will likely have to disband the majority of their own army just as GK is pressing the attack, this is assuming they survive the turn. And why does Slately want this loan, so he can send Tramennis out and lead a valient charge with Jetston'e best remaining units into the teeth of GK's troops without casters so that he can die heroicly. Quite frankly I think Caesar is being incredibly loyal for not leading a revolt againt the destructive and down right stupid decisions Don King has been making lately. As was pointed out earlier, a long term goal is all well and good, but having a long term goal that completely destroys you in the short term is foolish in the extreme and not at all conducive to good leadership. It is not beyond comprehension that Carpool may finish off TV before GK finishes off Jetstone if a Jetstone monarch gets away and TV makes the loan. Heck even Don King knows the loan is a bad idea;

[i]"I know," said Don, raising a hand. "The city falls, and you'll lose the heir you're popping. You may not be able to do anything about that, though. You have to face the facts."

"I am facing facts!" said Slately.

"Then face this one. We can't give you that kinda money. It'd leave us a couple turns away from an empty treasury ourselves." Don's voice had a certain granite texture, which Slately knew meant there was no room to negotiate.




Don blinked. "It was that," he shrugged. "We're clearly in big trouble here, arright? It was a lot of things. It was you, partly. But really, it was Bea."

"Bea," whispered Slately, mid-sigh. The Queen of Unaroyal had seen her daughter felled and decrypted. As her side was about to fall, Queen Bea sent a few last words to Don King, then wiped out her entire side by stepping into her portal and disbanding. "I haven't wanted to talk of her with you. You must know why. I...haven't felt worthy of speaking her name."

Don stiffened. His eyes went icy. "Yeah, well. It was a hard thing she did."

Slately found his fists striking the table, "It was a Noble thing she did!" His voice clenched up and the final word of his sentence came out airy. He swallowed. "We would be fighting her former units now, if she hadn't... I couldn't see how she could do it." He felt a sudden hotness in his eyes.

Don King shook his head, very sadly. "She believed. That's sacrifice. That's what Nobility is. As many times as you've preached it to me, you should know."

"I know!" Slately shouted again, and the image of Don went watery. "I want to be that— I want to be that way now, Don."

"What, disband yerself? You're kidding."

"Nohoho!" exclaimed Slately, in something between a sob and a laugh. "It's not that hopeless here yet. Not yet." He sniffed, and smiled bitterly. "No, I must promote my son. And then I will order him out of the city, and lead the army into the garrison myself."

Don leaned back and tilted his head, his lips pressed tightly together. "That's crazy," he said.



"Help me, Don," Slately pleaded, in a hoarse whisper. "This is what the war's about. Help me to honor Bea. Help me to honor honor itself. What else is there to fight for?"[/i]

So Don knows that this loan does virtually nothing to help Jetstone's chances for winning, it is just to assuage Slately's concience and let him die the hero, and for this Don King will practically destroy his own side by his own hand because he cannot stand to see another king cry. IF anyone has ever held the idiot ball in this comic, it is Don King and he has been sitting on it for MANY many turns.

As for your weak point about Wanda vs Caesar's actions, Don King is not listening to his advisors anymore, he has gone off the reservation and is destroying his own side far more effectively then an enemy could. What would you have Caesar do, sit back and watch his home side be destroyed by a king that seemingly has lost his grip on reality and the severity of the situation his poor decisions have put TV into?

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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Housellama » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:43 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:
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Oberon wrote:
kagato23 wrote:No, the long term goals COULD see TV in a much better postion. Could being the operative word here.
Well, sure. That's why they are called "long term goals", they cannot be judged until sufficient time has passed to see if they have paid off. The point remains, Caesar is a limited thinker, and cannot plan for long term goals. Don is not a limited thinker, and does plan for the long term. This is why they are at odds, but it doesn't give Caesar an excuse for his disloyalty.
theseus2x wrote:Trammenis had a good plan that seemed almost guaranteed to preserve the side. And now Slately feels bad! So instead of going along with it, he not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. So instead of going along with [Tram's plan], [Slately] not only wants to switch places with Tram - which will likely reduce Jetstone's paltry odds of victory - but will also cripple TV, his closest ally. Slately must know Jetstone will have a hell of a time repaying the loan in nine turns (with interest), but - as usual - he cares only for himself. This supposed "revelation" he's had has simply led him to the wrong conclusion as usual.
Slately switching places with Tram does a whole lot more than just make Slately feel better about himself or allow Slately to go out in a blaze of nobility. Slately's plan offers up regime change. The sole hope for Jetstone now is to be commanded by someone who isn't holding the idiot ball. So let's hope that this is a good week for Tram, because his prior record is spotty. But in any event, Tram is the better hope for Jetstone than Slately, and Slately knows it. Thus, his plan.


I signed up just to respond to this silliness. Don King's recent decisions have A) Lost TV several cities and warlords, B) emptied their treasury to the point that in two turns if the loan is made and something happens to Jetstone TV will not be able to even pay their own upkeep, and C) put a powerful, (funded in large part by TV) unpredictable force on their border that just recently betrayed the RCC2 and is directly responsible for Jetstone's current life or death circumstances. So, to top this off he wants to make a loan to a very shakey side that is unlikely to be able to continue the fight against GK AND repay the loan. Remember that Jetstone has been disbanding troops the last few turns because they cannot pay their own upkeep, so to repay the Don's loan after losing Spacerock, they will likely have to disband the majority of their own army just as GK is pressing the attack, this is assuming they survive the turn. And why does Slately want this loan, so he can send Tramennis out and lead a valient charge with Jetston'e best remaining units into the teeth of GK's troops without casters so that he can die heroicly. Quite frankly I think Caesar is being incredibly loyal for not leading a revolt againt the destructive and down right stupid decisions Don King has been making lately. As was pointed out earlier, a long term goal is all well and good, but having a long term goal that completely destroys you in the short term is foolish in the extreme and not at all conducive to good leadership. It is not beyond comprehension that Carpool may finish off TV before GK finishes off Jetstone if a Jetstone monarch gets away and TV makes the loan. Heck even Don King knows the loan is a bad idea;

[i]"I know," said Don, raising a hand. "The city falls, and you'll lose the heir you're popping. You may not be able to do anything about that, though. You have to face the facts."

"I am facing facts!" said Slately.

"Then face this one. We can't give you that kinda money. It'd leave us a couple turns away from an empty treasury ourselves." Don's voice had a certain granite texture, which Slately knew meant there was no room to negotiate.




Don blinked. "It was that," he shrugged. "We're clearly in big trouble here, arright? It was a lot of things. It was you, partly. But really, it was Bea."

"Bea," whispered Slately, mid-sigh. The Queen of Unaroyal had seen her daughter felled and decrypted. As her side was about to fall, Queen Bea sent a few last words to Don King, then wiped out her entire side by stepping into her portal and disbanding. "I haven't wanted to talk of her with you. You must know why. I...haven't felt worthy of speaking her name."

Don stiffened. His eyes went icy. "Yeah, well. It was a hard thing she did."

Slately found his fists striking the table, "It was a Noble thing she did!" His voice clenched up and the final word of his sentence came out airy. He swallowed. "We would be fighting her former units now, if she hadn't... I couldn't see how she could do it." He felt a sudden hotness in his eyes.

Don King shook his head, very sadly. "She believed. That's sacrifice. That's what Nobility is. As many times as you've preached it to me, you should know."

"I know!" Slately shouted again, and the image of Don went watery. "I want to be that— I want to be that way now, Don."

"What, disband yerself? You're kidding."

"Nohoho!" exclaimed Slately, in something between a sob and a laugh. "It's not that hopeless here yet. Not yet." He sniffed, and smiled bitterly. "No, I must promote my son. And then I will order him out of the city, and lead the army into the garrison myself."

Don leaned back and tilted his head, his lips pressed tightly together. "That's crazy," he said.



"Help me, Don," Slately pleaded, in a hoarse whisper. "This is what the war's about. Help me to honor Bea. Help me to honor honor itself. What else is there to fight for?"[/i]

So Don knows that this loan does virtually nothing to help Jetstone's chances for winning, it is just to assuage Slately's concience and let him die the hero, and for this Don King will practically destroy his own side by his own hand because he cannot stand to see another king cry. IF anyone has ever held the idiot ball in this comic, it is Don King and he has been sitting on it for MANY many turns.

As for your weak point about Wanda vs Caesar's actions, Don King is not listening to his advisors anymore, he has gone off the reservation and is destroying his own side far more effectively then an enemy could. What would you have Caesar do, sit back and watch his home side be destroyed by a king that seemingly has lost his grip on reality and the severity of the situation his poor decisions have put TV into?


Michael


/agree. I've stayed mostly quiet about Caeser vs Don, but I think Michael's hit the nail on the head. Solve one problem at a time. Caesar's trading almost certain death for slightly less certain death. Yeah, they've still got a problem. Caesar KNOWS they've still got a problem. But he's trading a big, immediate problem for a smaller, slightly less immediate problem. In other words, he's buying time. Don's gone way off the reservation and Caesar called him on it. Whether or not Don's plan would work is irrelevant. He's risking his side on a strategy that his CWL and the majority of his warlords and casters find... sketchy at best.

When your plane is about to blow up, then you jump out of the plane. You've solved one problem. Now you have another problem, which is that you are plummeting toward the ground, but what you are is still alive and not exploded into tiny little bits in the plane. Caesar never said that they didn't have problems. He just thinks that Don's rearranging deck chairs when he should be running for the life boats.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby kagato23 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:20 pm

Oberon wrote:1) Wanda disobeyed when she and Stanley were alone. No one overheard her disobey, and no one else even knows it ever happened.


2) Wanda did not stage a turns-long whispering campaign, nor talk down Stanley's decision to other units, in order to convince them to turn to her for confirmation of Stanley's orders.

3) She was called out on the refusal by Stanley, and proceeded to convince him that she was right, and then she gained his permission for her alternative plan.

Caesar cannot say that he acted honorably or loyally or correctly or respectfully. Nor can he say that he's managed to convince Don that he is right. All Caesar can cite as wins for his position is a successful campaign of poisoning the opinions of the other commanders against Don, and of forcing a stand down and overturning Don's order by presenting Don with the lose/lose of starting to disband units in order to attempt to regain his dominance. Don chose to let the rebels live rather than starting the killing. He should have made an example out of Caesar, if only to get rid of his subversive influence, and then allowed the order to be refused. Now Don is in the awkward position of having to wonder which of his other orders will be refused, and when, and at which point does he decide to refuse to allow his policies to be overturned by units who do not share his overall strategy for the side he is supposed to be ruling. Best to take his lumps now, rather than at a far more awkward position in the future.

Put into an analogy, it's like you work in a company as a Board member for the CEO. There are 9 other Board members who also report to this CEO. What is the correct behavior if you feel that your CEO is making a decision which will be disastrous for the company:

1) Approach your CEO privately and state your concerns. Present an alternative solution. Convince him that you are right through logic and persuasion, and never speak of your disagreement with him to any of the other Board members;

-or-

2) Begin openly disparaging your CEOs decision amongst your fellow Board members. When the CEO still doesn't get your point, up your campaign to discredit him. When another Board member comes to you, after you've spent much time previously telling him how poor a decision the CEO is making, and tells you that he's been ordered to do something that he feels is opposite of your contrary plans for the company, don't draw him aside to discuss it, don't approach the CEO with him and discuss it. No, you gather all the Board members around and convince them to march into the CEOs office together and offer him the choice: Fire you all, or back down from the order to the other Board members.

This is the difference between what Wanda did and what Caesar did. Which option do you think is going to result in a longer lasting company? Which do you think better preserves the respect for the office of the CEO and allows him or her to continue to be an effective leader? No matter if it is a corporate or a military environment, option 2) will be disastrous to the organization. Potentially as much or more so than any strategy for the company which the Directory might feel is also disastrous. This is something a thoughtful person should consider long and hard before even contemplating choosing option 2), but then Caesar isn't a thoughtful person.[/quote]

[/quote]

1. Irrelevant. A refusal is a refusal, I don't think she wouldn't have done it anyway if others were in the room.

2. You keep talking like Caesar did this behind Don's back. Whispering? He's been screaming. He's done it loudly and in front of others repeatedly. Whispering would have made this a surprise. Everybody knew Caesar felt this way before this turn. Ben wouldn't have thought Caesar was about to be disbanded if Don didn't know about this.

3. We have seen that Don has called Caesar out on this. Mocked him about it earlier that day when things appeared to be going right. Caesar has noted how don changed, how they used to have conversations. You think Caesar didn't bring it up to him personally first? I'm quite sure his repeated and increasing objections about money and FAQ didn't start publically. But when they were ignored, Caesar started bringing his concerns to everybody. This is partial speculation, true. But based on comments made, it certainly seems like this didn't come out of nowhere. I can't prove it went down this way. But I think it's pretty clear it didn't happen the way your putting forth, with Caesar doing this behind anybody's back. An actual disloyal or traitorous unit would have done this on the sly. Whispering to the fellow board members, as you've put it. But he's clearly not. Caesar has been brutally transparent since his introduction. He couldn't hide his utter loathing for Jillian when he was expressly ordered to be nice to her, you think he can organize a revolt on the sly? Hardly.

Your suggestion is suicide. If he allows the order to be refused AND disbands Caesar and only Caesar, he's been petty. Admitted Caesar was right while destroying him out of spite. Which will destroy any credibility he has left. If he'd done it long ago, perhaps. But he actually does need to disband EVERYBODY if he goes that route. Disband Caesar now, he can't trust anybody. They will turn the second they get a chance and would be right to. The CEO can't tell the hotshot he's right and fire him at the same time. Also, Caesar didn't organize what just happened. He didn't ask anybody to go with him. He didn't even have to go with Ben, but he was gonna do that cause he knew he was going against his rule and he was ready to own and take responsibility for that. The rest of them VOLUNTEERED to go with him.

I think part of the difference in our opinions here is you seem convinced Don King is right, which makes him good and Caesar bad for doing this. But really, there's no evidence to support this. If anything, it points the other way: Caesar is right, and maybe he should be doing more then disagreeing.

The old CEO is not listening to his financial adviser, he's not listening to the guy who used to be his go to man. His decisions seem foolish and every one made since the shift in behavior has been one that has cost the company with no return benefits. The company could literally go bankrupt in DAYS, and the CEO wants to make another loan to a business that won't even save from the current hostile acquisition it's about to face, but just let the current CEO make a suicidial move to keep a dying company alive without him for a little longer?

There is no time for negotiation at this point. No time to convince the CEO not to make this move. HE's been making moves like this for some time, and he is planning to make this move RIGHT NOW. There is no time to have a heart to heart. If the CEO is left unchecked for another hour, the company is dead. If anything, it looks like the CEO is senile and needs to be outed, he needs to be outed. The fact the board is just saying no and not no-confidencing the man is a testament to their loyalty towards that CEO. Probably too much Loyalty. Boards, after all, exist for a reason. Option 2 is all that's left right now. And if it means the end of the CEO... maybe it should.

That's not even the main point here though. Who's right or wrong is actually irrelevant, because it's characters motivations that are under debate here, not their correctness. I do think Caesar acted correctly from his own perspective: He felt this loan must not go through, it didn't go through. Was he correct to do it this way? He must have been, it worked! You keep saying Caesar is disloyal. It's the opposite. This is what you get when Loyalty and Duty are very high: A unit that acts in your best interests even if they conflict with your wants. He's honorable to a fault: He knew Ben would be safe, and still went to stand with him knowing he might be disbanded on the spot. Respectfully? We haven't seen him directly badmouth the Don once. Only his recent decisions. Wanda actively manipulates Stanley and is more then willing to talk badly of him behind his back. Caesar strikes me as the kind of guy who'd deck the first warlord who actually suggests he should be in charge. Wanda would shank Stanley tomorrow if it was possible (and he was stupid enough) and she was named his heir.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Oberon » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:44 pm

MichaelR138 wrote:As for your weak point about Wanda vs Caesar's actions, Don King is not listening to his advisors anymore, he has gone off the reservation and is destroying his own side far more effectively then an enemy could.
Don's demeanor is not at all that of someone who has "gone off the reservation". He is calm and seems confident, as confidant as you can be when faced with a land war in Asia while also gambling with a Sicilian when death is on the line. At the stand down, he did not rant or rave, he explained the consequences, and then dispersed the peasants bearing pitchforks and torches.

Don doesn't have to listen to his advisers, but he does. In Erfworld, the overlord is the wielder of absolute power. The only mechanical reason to have advisers at all is for some benefit in allowing others to implement your orders for you, and possibly some management fee reduction, although that is speculative. The only other reason besides that is because listening to the opinions of the people who are out there doing things while you sit on a throne just makes sense. But listening to advice does not mean that you must accept it, especially if it goes contrary to your long term goals. Don clearly listens to his advisers, he just has a different plan.

It's a shame that the author hasn't given us more of an insight into Don's goals and the whys and wherefores of how he feels that his plans will accomplish them. And also why he isn't sharing this strategy with his commander cadre. These things do not make much sense, story wise, to me. Even if Don feels that he wouldn't be understood, he is clearly not understood now, so what's the harm? It seems to be a failing in logic, and I'd very much like to have this explained within the story at some point.

The only sad thing about the selection of two paths is that there is no way to see how the other one would have worked out. Right now, Don's long term goal seems to have been (because I do not believe we've ever heard him articulate it) to never present GK with a reason to place TV on their hit list. His propping up of FAQ supports that goal, as does his assistance to Jetstone, and the presence of only a single bat in Spacerock.

This, if indeed it is Don's goal, has worked to perfection.

We have the examples of other RCC and RCCII members such as Unaroyal and Jetstone to hold up as reasons why Don does not want to ever be on the GK hit list.

The current realpolitik is that GK needs allies. Don has preserved his side and kept it out of the path of the juggernaut until the time when that realpolitik has manifested itself. By not being an enemy of GK, he stands to be able to be their friend. And since GK is desperate to make royal friends, Don can afford to ask for concessions from his rich and powerful new friend, should it come to that. Sure, he has to survive to get to that point, but he appears to have decided on a path which allows him to remain neutral with regards to GK, and to that end he has been successful.
MichaelR138 wrote:What would you have Caesar do, sit back and watch his home side be destroyed by a king that seemingly has lost his grip on reality and the severity of the situation his poor decisions have put TV into?
You make that statement while assuming that Don's actions have a lower chance to preserve TV than Caesar could arrange. And based on what I've seen on Caesar's and Don's character, my money is with the Don. FAQ has been marked for destruction by GK. Has Caesar had his way, TV would now own the FAQ city cites. They may have followed the FAQ path of building a powerful air force to support Jetstone. And it could now be TV marked for destruction by GK. Or Caesar could have taken that air force over to Carpool and reduced that threat. Who can do other than speculate about alternate paths? In any event, in a Caesar led TV they would now be a royal neighbor of GK, during a time when GK is gobbling up royal neighbors.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Oberon » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:33 pm

kagato23 wrote:1. Irrelevant. A refusal is a refusal, I don't think she wouldn't have done it anyway if others were in the room.
Since we've never seen Wanda contradict Stanley while others are present, and since Wanda also advised Parson on how to handle Stanley, I think that your "I don't think" has nothing to back it up except your own belief.
kagato23 wrote:2. You keep talking like Caesar did this behind Don's back. Whispering? He's been screaming. He's done it loudly and in front of others repeatedly. Whispering would have made this a surprise. Everybody knew Caesar felt this way before this turn. Ben wouldn't have thought Caesar was about to be disbanded if Don didn't know about this.
He did it both behind Don's back and in front of it. He did make his disagreement with Don's direction known, publicly. He also appears to have taken every opportunity to disparage Don's direction even if Don was not present to hear it. This is based upon the text of the strip, not speculation. He openly opposed Don's support of Jillian. Insults to Jillian were insults to Don when Don had decided to support her reclaiming of the FAQ city cites. He also openly opposed Don's support of the RCCII and Jetstone in particular. But we never saw him offer up alternative options, did we? No, all Caesar had to offer was criticism of the plans of the king, while never offering up his own plans so that they could be compared and contrasted.
kagato23 wrote:3. [snipped]You think Caesar didn't bring it up to him personally first? I'm quite sure his repeated and increasing objections about money and FAQ didn't start publically.
More speculation on your part. What we have seen is Caesar being a constant disruptive presence with Don's leadership cadre. We have never seen Caesar pulling Don aside to hold a quite discussion, but we have seen him openly disparage Don's plans and incite discord with other commanders. You assume that Caesar followed the proper protocols before resorting to open defiance, but that was never shown to have happened.
kagato23 wrote:The CEO can't tell the hotshot he's right and fire him at the same time.
You'll note that I did not say to tell the disloyal Board member he was right. I said get rid of him. Allow the others their refusal, despite it having come from the idiot, to keep what is left of the piece with them, and allow for future bridge building and relationship repair. With the instigator gone the remainder are less likely to band together to oppose him, because they would have lost their kingpin.

Here's an example of Caesar failing to use any discretion about his disagreements with Don:
Caesar sucks wrote:When Bunny had delivered the news that the Chief Warlord of Jetstone was captured and converted, Caesar had opened his yap and said more than he probably ought to have about his differences with Don on grand strategy. A large number of the other warlords nodded along.

At that point, Don had sent the nodders out of the room. He'd have a word with each of them individually in due time. For now, it would be best to keep the number of warlords in the room manageable, and deprive Caesar of an audience.

Here's another example of Caesar's disruptive influence:
Caesar sucks wrote:Caesar hated Jillian, of course. He argued all the time that Transylvito should break alliance, croak the Queen, and absorb Faq's cities.

Here is an example of Caesar spreading his anti-Don propaganda to Bunny, a key caster commander unit:
Caesar sucks wrote:I gotta talk to Don. We can't be leakin' all these resources to the crazy broad, and a war that don't make a profit.

I could go on, but this should be more than enough to make the point crystal clear. Caesar is neither loyal nor following his Duty to Don, which should tell Caesar that dissenting with Don should be done discreetly. He is instead discontented and convincing other commanders via a whispering campaign and open defiance that Don isn't leading TV well.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby MichaelR138 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:23 am

This, if indeed it is Don's goal, has worked to perfection.

[/quote]We have the examples of other RCC and RCCII members such as Unaroyal and Jetstone to hold up as reasons why Don does not want to ever be on the GK hit list.

The current realpolitik is that GK needs allies. Don has preserved his side and kept it out of the path of the juggernaut until the time when that realpolitik has manifested itself. By not being an enemy of GK, he stands to be able to be their friend. And since GK is desperate to make royal friends, Don can afford to ask for concessions from his rich and powerful new friend, should it come to that. Sure, he has to survive to get to that point, but he appears to have decided on a path which allows him to remain neutral with regards to GK, and to that end he has been successful.
MichaelR138 wrote:What would you have Caesar do, sit back and watch his home side be destroyed by a king that seemingly has lost his grip on reality and the severity of the situation his poor decisions have put TV into?
You make that statement while assuming that Don's actions have a lower chance to preserve TV than Caesar could arrange. And based on what I've seen on Caesar's and Don's character, my money is with the Don. FAQ has been marked for destruction by GK. Has Caesar had his way, TV would now own the FAQ city cites. They may have followed the FAQ path of building a powerful air force to support Jetstone. And it could now be TV marked for destruction by GK. Or Caesar could have taken that air force over to Carpool and reduced that threat. Who can do other than speculate about alternate paths? In any event, in a Caesar led TV they would now be a royal neighbor of GK, during a time when GK is gobbling up royal neighbors.[/quote]

If Don's goal was to play in the backround and not be directly involved in the war, he should not have allowed the ambush of Stanley, because I doubt Stanley the Tool has such a short memory that he won't want to get even with TV for that anyway.

Where are you getting that GK wants or needs a royal ally? Even if they did, Don's actions have made his side a very poor choice, why ally with the losing side of the war between Carpool and TV? If GK wants and needs a royal ally, HAGGAR is far and away the better choice as they are not a few turns away from being eliminated. Heck, Carpool would also be far preferrable to either as they have never joined a coalition against GK. Or how about Jitterati? Don King has so depleted TV in his support of his allies, he really has little to nothing to offer to GK except that they would leach resources and troops away from the main effort just to keep Carpool from destroying them, and even Stanley is not foolish enough to enter into that one sided a relationship.

I also do not see Don King as that treacherous that he would abaondon the holy quest of the RCC just to save his own skin, even if it owuld work which I highly doubt. Not only would he be backstabbing any members of the RCC2 left, he would be trampling on Bea's sacrifice and showing himself and his side devoid of all honor, supposedly the reason he is wanting to fund Slately's suicide charge. You are describing two sets of possible actions that are in total opposites of character.

And what good does it do to keep GK away when Carpool destroys you?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby kagato23 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:38 pm

Your contradicting yourself a few times here. Is Caesar doing this openly, or is he doing a whispering campaign? A whispering campaign means he's doing it where certain people can't hear about it. Again, everybody knows. There are no secrets to what Caesar is doing. You say he offers no alternatives then you cite one of his actual alternatives which he's been arguing "all the time" : Destory Faq, make profit.

If you let "the idiot" have his way but fire him, why did you fire him? He was right or he was wrong. It's more complicated then that, certainly. But not from the perspective of the other people in that room. Doing it the way he wanted means he was right, or at least that you weren't willing to oppose him on it. If Don wanted to prove him wrong, he needed to go ahead and make the damn gem, lend it out, and have things actually go right (though don might not be able to do that at this point anyway, though that's really his fault. People wouldn't listen to Caesar so much if Caesar was wrong: he said this was going to be a disaster and it's been a giant disaster). If your not willing to go through with the plan though, you have no reason to fire him. If he and all the others are saying the same thing, only getting rid of the idea starter is petty. You fire the guy that you just acquiesced to, you are saying he was right but you didn't want to hear it. You might not think it, but you just said it in your actions. You fire him after everybody else saw him get his argument across, you're throwing out any hope of that future bridge rebuilding. The rest of the group just stood with Caesar ready to be disbanded. Disbanding him is going to make their loyalty plummet, they didn't stop agreeing with Caesar just because the one issue is resolved. What happens the next time somebody disagrees with Don? They'll be sure they can't say anything about it. That might shut them up but it will also get them turning if they can.

Your three examples show respectively what Caesar is doing at this latest point, when everything they staked their money on is starting to go bad, an example of what Caesar things and has openly stated as opposed to "whispering" about it and a neutral comment to a personal companion that he wants to TALK PERSONALLY to the Don. Which you keep saying he never did but clearly expresses a desire to do here. Considering Bunny and Caesar are also in a personal relationship and this is a private conversation, he's not sounding very anti-don so much anti-this war.

Most of the points are as muddy as they ever were. But I think this is crystal clear: Caesar has Duty in abundance. He's acting on his own initiative repeatedly for the sake of his side. If he's doing that in a good way is irrelevant, only his intent. He's doing it because he believes it will save the side. If it was personal against don, he'd have made a move by now, as we know heirs can. Which is how we know his loyalty is still good. The man may have tried to kill him, he's about to be replaced as heir which removes his ability to make a move, so why wouldn't he make it while he still can? Because he doesn't intend to. At least not yet. He's not doing anything like a whispering campaign, you can't have one of those by definition unless you are trying to hide the source. And if anything the source is wearing a big booping target.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Housellama » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:30 pm

kagato23 wrote:he's not sounding very anti-don so much anti-this war.


Finally!

Thank you for finding the words that I couldn't. This isn't about Caesar vs Don. This is Caesar saying that for good of their Side, they shouldn't be getting more involved than they already are. It's time to cut their losses and run. Don't, literally, throw good money after bad, especially since they have so little money to throw. Caesar would be saying that to ANYONE trying to do the same.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is a Chief Warlord doing his job. That is a Chief Warlord doing his utmost to preserve his Side. That is, quite literally, the definition of Duty.

We can argue til the cows come home whether or not Caesar's plan is the best idea, but the important thing is that Caesar DOES have a point. He is making, in his view, a strategically sound decision, and one that will preserve his side better than the high risk/high reward plan that his Ruler is proposing. That's Duty, to a tee.

Caesar doesn't want Don's job. Caesar believes that the decisions Don has been making lately have been detrimental to the Side. His Duty is to protect that Side. He is doing his job. Nothing more, nothing less.
Last edited by Housellama on Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 59

Postby Aquillion » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:33 pm

He also believes -- quite accurately -- that the Don's decisions are being influenced by his friendship with Slately in this case, rather than purely by sound logic.
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