Book 2 – Page 59

[Oberon]

Your contradicting yourself a few times here. Is Caesar doing this openly, or is he doing a whispering campaign?

As I said, and as the strip shows, Caesar did both. There is no contradiction there, except that they you manufactured over the word "whispering". If your point hinges upon the specific definition of a single word, then I say that it all depends upon what the definition of the word "is" is.

If you let "the idiot" have his way but fire him, why did you fire him? He was right or he was wrong. It's more complicated then that, certainly.

Your last sentence sums it up. You get rid of the disruptive influence, while allowing the "group" decision to stand. It is complicated, but I explained it before, just go re-read until you understand better.

You fire the guy that you just acquiesced to, you are saying he was right but you didn't want to hear it.

You're not saying he was right. You're saying in one act "Caesar GTFO and never pester me again" and also "The rest of you get this win, this time. Next time, perhaps you'll remember what happened to Caesar."

But I think this is crystal clear: Caesar has Duty in abundance.

And if you believe that tearing down the respect for Don of the entire leadership cadre is fulfilling his duty, then we'll just have to disagree.

He's acting on his own initiative repeatedly for the sake of his side.

Caesar is acting because he appears to be incapable of anything other than a direct line of thought.

[kagato23]

As I said, and as the strip shows, Caesar did both. There is no contradiction there, except that they you manufactured over the word "whispering". If your point hinges upon the specific definition of a single word, then I say that it all depends upon what the definition of the word "is" is.

Because a whisper campaign is something with an actual definition. Look it up. It is in something you do while concealing your doing it. Caesar isn't hiding, so he can't be doing one.

You're saying in one act "Caesar GTFO and never pester me again" and also "The rest of you get this win, this time. Next time, perhaps you'll remember what happened to Caesar."

I used that argument as well... as why doing that destroys any credibility don has left. Don has no loyalty at that point.

Caesar is acting because he appears to be incapable of anything other than a direct line of thought.

But for the sake of his side. But yeah, were going to disagree. Were done here.

[MarbitChow]

But I think this is crystal clear: Caesar has Duty in abundance.

And if you believe that tearing down the respect for Don of the entire leadership cadre is fulfilling his duty, then we'll just have to disagree.

Don had previously stressed that he promoted based on merit and results. Don created his entire leadership cadre based, not on royal lineage, but on effectiveness.
Don has since switched gears, and is emphasizing royalty over success. He's making poor decisions (popping a royal heir in direct contradiction of his previously-demonstrated effective pattern of leadership promotion, pouring tons of cash into building up another kingdom with an erratic leader, just because she's royal), and now appears to want to throw more good money away to royalty.
Caesar is not tearing down respect for Don. Don is doing it himself. When you build a team of leaders based on their competence, and then start to show incompetence yourself, they'll notice.

[MichaelR138]

Your contradicting yourself a few times here. Is Caesar doing this openly, or is he doing a whispering campaign?

As I said, and as the strip shows, Caesar did both. There is no contradiction there, except that they you manufactured over the word "whispering". If your point hinges upon the specific definition of a single word, then I say that it all depends upon what the definition of the word "is" is.

If you let "the idiot" have his way but fire him, why did you fire him? He was right or he was wrong. It's more complicated then that, certainly.

Your last sentence sums it up. You get rid of the disruptive influence, while allowing the "group" decision to stand. It is complicated, but I explained it before, just go re-read until you understand better.

First, that was a very condescending answer made all the worse because
Second it is wrong, which makes you look arrogant and foolish all at the same time. This is no whispering campaign, this is Caesar talking to the other warlords because Don King is acting erratically and not listening to his advisors anymore.

Right now if you could check Don King's duty stat, it seems it would be VERY low towards TV and high on the concept of royalty, to the point he is destroying TV to bolster royals on other sides. If he doesn't come back to his senses soon, he won't have a side to rule at all. It would have been like Germany sending all their cash to Italy in WW2 and letting the Russians run them over in 1942. It is just a series of poor decisions culminating in a rogue ally on one side and a hostile force taking your cities on the other. And you still haven't come up with how this loan would help Jetstone since they are already unable to meet their upkeep even before losing their best city (if they indeed do lose Jetstone) and then having to pay this loan and high interest back. Tram will inherit a kingdom with no options but limited fighting retreat and no ability to rebuild his army because of the debt. It is a ludicrously bad idea for all sides, so the more Caesar would know about it, the more opposed he would be, and Don knows it is a bad idea. He said he couldn't do it when first asked, then caved to Slately's sob story but won't tell even Benjamin the details because he knows if they oppose it now, they will oppose it even more once they know all the facts.

Also, I don't remember who was saying it, but Jetstone living past this turn does neither Don King nor Caesar any harm or good, Caesar can say see, they didn't need the loan and Don can say, see, they are not quite dead yet so they could have possibly repaid the loan. The impasse will continue until Don King starts focusing his efforts, treasury and troops on the war at his doorstep and regains the lost cities from Carpool In the eyes of his warlords, that is what will redeem him, not throwing more effort into some other sides war while they continue to lose the one for their own cities.

Michael

[Oberon]

First, that was a very condescending answer made all the worse because
Second it is wrong, which makes you look arrogant and foolish all at the same time.

First, that was a very condescending answer made all the worse because you failed utterly to finish your sentence.
Second, it is wrong, which makes you look arrogant and foolish all at the same time because you are a troll.

Do you see how this works?

[Sylvan]

Guys, guys. At some point you have to realize that having an argument with Oberon is something like what this article describes.

Not saying I agree with everything in the article, but.....

"A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point."

Been away for a week or so because of some issues with my account, but I thought I might spare some of you the trouble.

Feel free to not respond to this, Oberon has foe listed me because in my first post I flat out told him not to bother trying to troll me, and after he tried to troll me I gave links to some of his more asinine comments on other peoples arguments and then asked him again to stop responding to me. As it stands, responding to me will just drag more mud through things, and I'd rather that be avoided, if possible. PM me if you have to.

Honestly, it is easier just to let him think he has won..

Unless you just feel like your duty is calling.

[MichaelR138]

First, that was a very condescending answer made all the worse because
Second it is wrong, which makes you look arrogant and foolish all at the same time.

First, that was a very condescending answer made all the worse because you failed utterly to finish your sentence.
Second, it is wrong, which makes you look arrogant and foolish all at the same time because you are a troll.

Do you see how this works?

Yup, I made a mistake. I thought you were an intelligent adult interested in discourse. I now see you cannot follow a thought not your own and have no interest in hearing anything but your own opinion and people praising it.

Already done with you. You ignore so many logical holes in your own arguement and then nitpick others, you sir, are the definition of a prick.

Michael

[Oberon]

Feel free to not respond to this, Oberon has foe listed me [...]

Where did you get that impression? I don't have anyone foe listed. I think I had foe listed the guy who turned out to be the second coming of Plotarmor, but I just looked and my foe list is empty. I either cleared it when he was banned again, or it auto-cleared when he was banned. In any event, neither you nor anyone else is foe listed by me, I am not afraid to read opinions contrary to my own.

[Sylvan]

You had stated as much earlier. Something about foe listing that guy who you thought had just signed up to insult you, or somesuch.

*shrug* I'll keep that in mind then. My statement from before still stands, however. While you do occasionally make an interesting and cogent point, I think you are the very definition of the type of person the article linked above talks about and will continue to do so until I see evidence to the contrary.

From what I can tell though you seem to be less blatantly insulting nowadays, which is a step in a good direction. My apologies if any of this post seems condescending.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Just tried something. Apparently, I can send myself a PM. However, I cannot add myself to foes. What gives, Erfworld forums? I demand this feature!

[multilis]

"He also believes -- quite accurately -- that the Don's decisions are being influenced by his friendship with Slately in this case, rather than purely by sound logic."

IMO that is not proven, we do not know mind of Don, how strongly friendship decides the end decision. Don may see "signs" of Stately acting "royal" for a change just like Ossomer, and think based on pure logic that Trem is the best hope for winning and losing Trem will likely end TV. (GK has their genius, we need ours, Trem is best hope of one)

On Royalty, we don't know the full politics of decision. Political decisions can be motived by "sound logic". He felt it was important to survival of side to have some better grounding into politic subtlety than Caesar seemed to have.... Don may fake politic views when required by "cold logic".

(Mafia often have reputation of putting cold logic as more important than friendship)

Don was also influenced by Queen Bea's sacrifice, one possibility for royal heir idea is it allowed him to sacrifice self if needed, putting Caesar on throne and having a royal backup to him, so his side could stay tight in Royalty sides *and* have a non royal leading it.
...

Royals are also a bit stronger, so possible Don thought worth risk to roll dice on seeing if he could get his own Parson as an heir. Don may be the sort who would happily sacrifice himself if Caesar or Royal heir could do a better job, and seeing Stately willing to do such as well helped decide matters. Lots of example in literature, eg in God Emperor of Dune, the Emperor secretly longs to have a better rebel leader replace him so he can finally die.

[multilis]

From cold logic, one way to "survive" would be have the two heavyweights GK and Charlie fight, and cripple each other rather than be the cannon fodder yourself.

Possible Don hopes for this and thinks only Trem has the diplomatic skills to pull it off.

(Don and Charlie play a similar political game of getting other sides to fight for them as way to win)