Book 2 – Text Updates 020

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Tarian » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:25 pm

What if GK forces used Foolamancy to pretend to die when the archers hit them? Or use images that can die, like when Jack saved Stanley from the Jillian/TV ambush? That way, they might not get shot at again, or at least have the shots go at the not as important targets by having only certain "sections" die off.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:53 pm

Lamech wrote:I would assume that if the archers fire on Wanda and Co. then Wanda and co. can fire back. If they can't then Parson would have shot the archons out of the sky as soon as they ended turn, and if the dwagons can already fire Wanda would have blasted the tower down already.


I'd assume that Archons or Dwagons with ranged attacks could fire at any unit on the ground, but if so why didn't Charlie attack Parson's troops in the courtyard back in book 1? It has me a bit confuzzled. Maybe a unit can only attack on their opponent's turn if attacked first? Would make some sense but... not as much sense as I'd like.

Anyway, I got a plan. Since everyone else is speculating I'll toss mine out too:

1. Wanda's advantage is: she has the Arkenpliers. The other side doesn't have an Arkentool at all. That's the most important objective in support of her goal. (See book 1 for that quote.)

2. I'm going to assume that the pliers could decrypt a unit on the ground (in the same hex as Wanda), even if normal ranged attacks would not reach the ground. So even if Wanda for some reason can't counter-attack archers, she has an "attack" on the ground for any dead units.

3. Assume for the moment that Wanda's force have NO attacks which can reach archers.

3. A. Make a stack of best Dwagons. Use them to screen incoming attacks.

3. B. Eventually the Dwagons be used up. And die. And fall. To the ground.

3. C. Bonus points if you can kill a few on the ground by getting a dwagon to fall on top of the ground units.

3. D If an important unit is loosing it's mount due to archery attacks or whatever, have them switch out like Parson had the warlords switch mounts in Book 1.

3. E. Eventually there will be several dead Dwagons on the ground. NOW decrypt them. They'll have effectively crossed the sub-zone boundary, since I doubt a unit will start flying right away with 0 move. Now you have a "cheat" just like Parson cheated in book 1. Using the Pliers to get dead units to go from flying to on the ground.

4. Now stuff on the ground is just tactics. Kill as much as possible to give Wanda fodder. Go for the archers first. Bubble pop the Doublemancer so he can't double up the arrows any more. Take out warlords to neutralize their bonus. Etc.

5. Eventually Jetstone will stop attacking, even if they can, because they don't want more Dwagons rampaging around.

6. If Wanda can counter attack, then that just makes this more effective. Wanda's max stack can counter attack (with Archon's ranged magic and Dwagon breath), which'll make dead units on the ground right away. Leave those dead at first though, you want one big attack, not a small one that's easily wiped out before the next wave. When dwagons mounts that the counter-attackers are using get low on hits, swap them out and use them to screen. The screening Dwagons will die, but that's ok. Keep that up until there are enough dead Jetstone units and dead Dwagons to make a counter attack.

And the kicker? Sylvia will come up with the idea to decrypt dead dwagons on the ground.


Anyway, we'll see what really happens. I haven't put Jack into play here, and I'm sure he'll be important, but I think the Pliers are going to be the important plot point here.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Rosa Vernal » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:11 pm

Why not decrypt them as they fall, then?

That way one doesn't have to worry about city zones.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:19 pm

Rosa Vernal wrote:Why not decrypt them as they fall, then?

That way one doesn't have to worry about city zones.



'Cause then they'd be flying. Fliers can't attack units on the ground, remember? You want units on the ground to destroy Jetstones archers and other ranged attacking units. Jetstone is mostly stabber and slicers and pokers, that's what Ossomer was popping according to the summer update. They don't have that many ranged units, I think.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gazes_also » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:54 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:6. If Wanda can counter attack, then that just makes this more effective. Wanda's max stack can counter attack (with Archon's ranged magic and Dwagon breath), which'll make dead units on the ground right away. Leave those dead at first though, you want one big attack, not a small one that's easily wiped out before the next wave. When dwagons mounts that the counter-attackers are using get low on hits, swap them out and use them to screen. The screening Dwagons will die, but that's ok. Keep that up until there are enough dead Jetstone units and dead Dwagons to make a counter attack.

And the kicker? Sylvia will come up with the idea to decrypt dead dwagons on the ground.


Anyway, we'll see what really happens. I haven't put Jack into play here, and I'm sure he'll be important, but I think the Pliers are going to be the important plot point here.


We came up with similar plans for Wanda
The problem is that defensive formations that are effective for defense against a ground attack may make you vulnerable to air attack - and Wanda is assuming that Jillian is coming back to finish the job. So where does she assume the main attack will come from?
If you're expecting an air attack, get high and stack tight groups; the very things that would make you vulnerable to ground attack from archery where you should either get low and close to a single stack to prevent concentration of fire from several stacks or get very very high out of range (is that possible in a hex?) and spread out so that off target shots don't find an incidental target.

Wanda's interim plan seems like a good compromise; vertical stacks with low value units at the bottom and the leaders at the top (like a game of Space Invaders). This shields leaders from being shot at for a while until everything below them is shot down, plus they are better placed to fend off an aerial attack. It's a passive, defensive plan, and the mere threat of Jillian's force may be enough to keep them frozen and taking the hits.

If Jillian does return, a possible counter attack would be for Jack to make Scarlet appear to be Wanda, and then approach with a few Archons close and attempt to croak Jillian. This could work because Jillian believes Wanda can't/won't croak her and Scarlet+Archons could be enough to get the job done. Loss of their overlord should put Faq in disarray AND if she can be decrypted it could double Wanda's forces. On the other hand, If Wanda is still with Jillian she could spot the veil even if Jillian is fooled; Jack might be too conflicted to maintain it long enough. Good Dramatic possibilities for sure.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby DoctorJest » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:54 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:I'd assume that Archons or Dwagons with ranged attacks could fire at any unit on the ground, but if so why didn't Charlie attack Parson's troops in the courtyard back in book 1? It has me a bit confuzzled. Maybe a unit can only attack on their opponent's turn if attacked first? Would make some sense but... not as much sense as I'd like.


They were in separate city zones. Units cannot attack across zones, but can only attack each zone in a specific way (tower from airspace, courtyard from outerwalls, dungeons from tunnels, etc). GK has three: The tower (and airspace), the courtyard, and the dungeons. The Archons were in the airspace/tower zone, while the troops were in the courtyard zone. Zones seem to behave like mini-hexes (with some notable differences), like in some strategy games where when you enter an area, it zooms in and gives you a grid map of that area. For the Archons to attack the courtyard, they would have had to change zones.

See for more: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/City_Zones

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Rogthnor01 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:19 pm

I haven't read all the posts yet so this may already have been mentioned but you can't cast on the enemies turn. That means no veils. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F064.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby regisminae » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:28 pm

Rogthnor01 wrote:I haven't read all the posts yet so this may already have been mentioned but you can't cast on the enemies turn. That means no veils. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F064.jpg


For the purposes of (hopefully) putting the confusion surrounding the "can't cast on your turn" thing to rest for good, I'm going to introduce a concept.

Definition: Any hex that contains units from the Side or Sides whose Turn is currently taking place is an active hex

Proposition: Any Caster may cast if and only if they are currently in an active hex.

Corollary: A Caster can, under appropriate circumstances, cast on an enemy's Turn.


I'd have to do a little bit of research to see whether "hex or city zone" should be substituted for the first occurrence of "hex" in the definition, or whether the entire city counts as a single hex for spellcasting eligibility purposes.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Now, to the actual comment I was going to make: I'm not sure that it's been explicitly stated which hex the flying group is in. They may have been met outside the city by the forces of FAQ. Now, on the other hand, it was a big deal when Jillian's megalogwiff crossed into the tower zone, so she must have been in city airspace, thus one could make a case that Wanda et al. are in Spacerock airspace. Alternatively, the parley could have occured across the hex boundary, but the direct interactions of Jillian and Wanda's mounts seem to contradict that.

Another thought: It's been stated that city defenders need not expend Move to travel between city zones. Apparently, even though it's free, this travel still can't happen on enemies' Turns, though?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Rogthnor01 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:31 pm

If i remember the right each city zone is a hex but it doesn't cost movement for allied sides to move through them. So if wanda's hex was entered they could cast but until then they have to wait. it think.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:54 am

gameboy1234 wrote:{...}
3. E. Eventually there will be several dead Dwagons on the ground. NOW decrypt them. They'll have effectively crossed the sub-zone boundary, since I doubt a unit will start flying right away with 0 move. Now you have a "cheat" just like Parson cheated in book 1. Using the Pliers to get dead units to go from flying to on the ground.


I really like this idea. Of course, Stanley would absolutely hate it, but it's quite outside-the-box yet not so out there that it's impractical.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby effataigus » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:16 pm

Rogthnor01 wrote:
I haven't read all the posts yet so this may already have been mentioned but you can't cast on the enemies turn. That means no veils. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F064.jpg


For the purposes of (hopefully) putting the confusion surrounding the "can't cast on your turn" thing to rest for good, I'm going to introduce a concept.

Definition: Any hex that contains units from the Side or Sides whose Turn is currently taking place is an active hex

Proposition: Any Caster may cast if and only if they are currently in an active hex.

Corollary: A Caster can, under appropriate circumstances, cast on an enemy's Turn.

Most everything I wanted to say has been said. Also, I like (but don't yet fully believe) this proposal to explain the time warp casting, Maggie's interruption of the archon's DDR, Wanda's air-defenses, and Sizemore's use of shockamancy scrolls off turn. This would also explain why even having Jack in the column with the wounded dwagons wouldn't be enough to veil them before Jillian found them. This would mean Jack can cast defensively too, yay!

I also am curious where Jetstone will choose to spend their archers. In the battle against Ansom's column where they'd definitely be handy, or going offensive against Wanda's column? Jillian doesn't want Wanda to die (cause it might kill Ansom), so I have my doubts that she'd help in that fight. That means that Wanda's column only has to worry about archers, a dittomancer, a couple unipegs, and some orlies. Jetstone might just want to smash up Ansom's column and withdraw all remaining forces to defend the capital against a counterattack.

Awww, now that I know it's a hair helmet I kinda like it! Funny that I hated it until she took it off. Can't win I guess.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Fug » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:20 pm

I don't think Wanda can decrypt until it is her turn (look back to the end of book 1 where it is the first thing she does on the start of her turn). I'm also not sure Jack is low on juice. Jack having to conserve juice for the battle isn't the same as him being low on juice.

Her strategy could be to use all living units to take hits for decrypted units as much possible. Hope to survive by hiding (have a fake copy of her that can get croaked at which point Jack makes all decrypted units invisible making it seem like they disbanded).

Assuming she survives decrypt everything and go from there -possibly with Jillian now that all the units are decrypted :O)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Neko » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:30 pm

Random Strategy Thought:

Have the Archons target the Arrows that are being fired from the Jetstone archers below with their powers/attacks. (Or some other Erf version of flares/countermeasures to suck up ranged attacks.)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Ditto » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:56 pm

The rules for casting are pretty much 'anything goes when you're sitting in your capital, defending your capital'. Like how they don't need to track move within their own city.

I expect that Jack would be unable to veil anything besides himself (so now there's a tree riding that blue dragon instead of a caster, not very sneaky). Wanda, however, could probably decrypt or uncroak dead dudes, since that's not interacting with other units - the bodies are just part of the landscape.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby Rosa Vernal » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:33 pm

gameboy1234 wrote:
Rosa Vernal wrote:Why not decrypt them as they fall, then?

That way one doesn't have to worry about city zones.



'Cause then they'd be flying. Fliers can't attack units on the ground, remember? You want units on the ground to destroy Jetstones archers and other ranged attacking units. Jetstone is mostly stabber and slicers and pokers, that's what Ossomer was popping according to the summer update. They don't have that many ranged units, I think.


Assuming one CAN decrypt across zones, that is. And that there's not ground support ready and waiting to immediately start trying to destroy the corpse. And that there is absolutely zero chance of getting any attacks to the ground. I'm not saying it's a bad plan, it's just resting on a LOT of variables that we have no idea about. Yet.

Decrypting them in midair, though, that'll result in a double-strength meat shield. If you have to kill just about every unit twice in order to actually get shots to Wanda's stack, I suspect that they'll run out of attack long before they kill everything. Twice.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby multilis » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:17 pm

On the bridge, the archers and fliers were in same zone. Not clear here in city if archers can hit units in different zone who are trying to avoid a fight and can't hit back.

It costs zero move for defenders to move between zones, but they still may have to move between those zones to target units in any part of the other zone. Might be possible from a high point, eg top of tower, but would seem fair if archers can shoot at air units, that air units should be able to ranged shoot back.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby kineticdragon » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:16 pm

Hey guys,

I've been following since the OOTS days, but first time with a question.

There had been worse situations. She had once lain broken in the dirt, at the mercy of the enemy Chief, and spoken a challenge. Seal my Fate. Seal yours.


Did we ever see this? I don't exactly remember it, but my memory is shoddy. Is this some sort of weird soul-binding she might have Stanley or some other general and why she can't leave his side?

Thanks.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:43 pm

multilis wrote:On the bridge, the archers and fliers were in same zone.


Sorta. I get the feeling that non-city hexes don't have zones. Yeah it was mostly the Expository Bridge I was thinking of, where flying Archons flashed and then shocked troops on the ground. I'm starting to believe that all these "zone" rules only apply to city hexes.

Not clear here in city if archers can hit units in different zone who are trying to avoid a fight and can't hit back.


This is what weirds me out. If archers in the courtyard can hit a flying enemy overhead who can't then fight back. If the Jetstone archers have to climb up the tower first, no problem, Wanda can counter attack freely. But if archers on the walls or courtyard can also hit units in their airspace (as would seem logical, since the dwagons are right there), then it's really unbalancing. Don't get stuck in someone else's airspace I guess.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:48 pm

kineticdragon wrote:Did we ever see this? I don't exactly remember it, but my memory is shoddy. Is this some sort of weird soul-binding she might have Stanley or some other general and why she can't leave his side?

Thanks.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F122.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 020

Postby gameboy1234 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:58 pm

Rosa Vernal wrote:Decrypting them in midair, though, that'll result in a double-strength meat shield. If you have to kill just about every unit twice in order to actually get shots to Wanda's stack, I suspect that they'll run out of attack long before they kill everything. Twice.



OK, I was assuming that Wanda would be attacked from archers on the ground, with no hope of counter attack. I'm starting to get the feeling that this shouldn't be possible for Jetstone, at all. My original idea made sense to me because Hagar brought down those flying Archons with archers, and Jetstone likewise hit Jack did at the Expository Bridge, but I'm starting to feel like it won't be an issue at all. My little plan may be based on a false premise.

A bunch of archers standing on the tower aren't going to be much of a threat. Wanda's dwagons could munch them up pretty fast after taking only a few hits. I'm guessing now that Wanda's biggest worry is that Jillian will return.
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