Book 2 – Page 26

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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Kozbot » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:35 pm

Two observations, we know that things are not going to go well for Haggar but we can be pretty confident that Sammy knows how to rock out, and according to the Tool rocking out is an incredibly powerful fighting technique, any thoughts that things might not go so bad for Sammy after all?

Something that just came to me, and having just read all the summer updates again, Charlie may be getting involved because he sees GK as truly capable of actually conquering all of erfworld. Normally the diminishing returns from capturing more cities would make it more and more difficult to properly garrison all of them and as a side expanded it would come into contact with more and more possible aggressors while having, relatively, fewer and fewer resources to combat them. But Decrypted don't require upkeep, sidestepping that whole problem. While it's an incredibly intriguing idea that Charlie may be fighting GK to protect himself from incrimination it may be nothing more than a cold calculation that the dynamics of erfworld have been broken and someone must act to restore the status quo. Or perhaps he wants to be the one who takes everything over.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby multilis » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:42 pm

"Of course, if that's what Charlie wants, he's wasting his time -- we know (though he might not) that Parson can't leave Gobwin Knob." - possible that Stanley can spend shmuckers to upgrade Parson to go in field, like done by Uniroyal.

Also possible that 3 decrypted archons of some sort can lift Parson to another location similar to when Charlie asked Parson to turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Chit Rule Railroad » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:40 pm

gazes_also wrote:Yes, there's a lot of Jillian's past to be explored, especially Wanda's treachery.


And especially with the reference in their parley to a mysterious incident where Jillian betrayed Wanda, which I'm guessing related to Wanda becoming a Faq unit.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby ftl » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:06 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
gazes_also wrote:Yes, there's a lot of Jillian's past to be explored, especially Wanda's treachery.


And especially with the reference in their parley to a mysterious incident where Jillian betrayed Wanda, which I'm guessing related to Wanda becoming a Faq unit.


That was probably a reference to when Jillian broke free of the mind control spell and chose Ansom over Wanda. I don't think it was meant to be a reference to any mysterious treachery.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Oberon » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:07 am

elddonnemar wrote:Hey everyone. Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to point out the flaws in the art! I will keep all the critiques in mind as I work on future pages. And thanks to everyone who pointed out the good parts too! It really keeps me going. :D

Green stuff is suppose to be moss... [fail] Will fix in later pages.
Xin? Izzat you? Meh, some of the criticism was rather harsh, and rather harsher than it needed to be, imo. I think it's a bit natural since there's been a change in artists, as there is a point of comparison and also some old loyalties going on. But if I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure that Jamie got pummeled over the BESM look of his earlier works in Book 1. At least early on.

And I've griped loudly over a few plot points, myself. But I'm still here, reading and awaiting new comics. So obviously my gripes aren't outweighing the good stuff.

Whatever, just keep on going. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Altima » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:39 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Yeah, all this insisting on "male voice" whenever it's about Charlie is too obviously a red herring.

My theory is that Charlie is a Unicorn.

And it's pissed.


Charlie clearly can't be a unicorn, because a unicorn isn't 'human' which means Charlie can't rule a side. There are, of course, unipegataurs, though, but I don't recall if they're natural allies or a higher tier unit.

Besides, since Unicorns are always listening to Erasure, they cannot be pissed. Ever.

Unless Tom Cruise is around, of course.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:18 am

Rock on Haggar, rock on.

Ominous indeed. I really liked Trem's expressions here a great deal. In fact I liked all the faces a lot, Haggar and Jillian were really well done. Love panel 9, really liked the last panel and panel 2 as well.

And good work Charlie, sounds like Haggar really is contractually obliged to go with through with it all. It makes me wonder - alliances can be broken/betrayed we know, is it possible to break a contract and if so what is the cost? Parson seems compelled to provide Charlie with his calculations, Charlie seems compelled to deliver what he says he will when a deal is struck... Haggar has the threat of capital attack but if they decided not to follow through and Sammy had put pen to paper what would happen?

Hmmm, objectives. So Haggar/Sammy likely have a target but Charlie wasn't too heavy handed with them - he hasn't forced them to fight to the death.

Kozbot wrote:Something that just came to me, and having just read all the summer updates again, Charlie may be getting involved because he sees GK as truly capable of actually conquering all of erfworld...


Without more info on Charlie's motivations that is how I've been viewing his involvement as well - he sees the danger GK and decryption pose to the status quo of Erfworld better then anyone else and he wants to stop it. Of course I imagine it is much more complex, but that is a good starting point.

SteveMB wrote:Promoting a new Chief Warlord does not require croaking the old one (fortunately for Parson). It may require the new Chief Warlord to be in the presence of the ruler and/or in the capital, though (if so, Ossomer can't be promoted whether Ansom gets recroaked or not).


I also think, if it is a field thing like with Trem, it has to be communicated to the recipient somehow. Trem didn't seem to know he was CW until he got the scroll (by message hat presumably) telling him. With Maggie I guess that isn't a problem.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Presumably because that way they can better use the bridge's ability as a choke. I suppose the idea is, if you have troops defending on the bridge, then pretty much the same number of troops will clash from both sides; if however you defend just a little bit off the bridge, you get to surround the enemy and bring a slight numerical advantage to every engagement.


Agreed.

Most definitely! Though doomed, let this stand be awesome!


Indeed, I have no problem with Ansom loosing this, but last stands (well this isn't really a last stand but still) should be awesome and Ansom deserves to shine.

Altima wrote:I wonder if there's an in-game mechanic to reflect morale. There's, of course, leadership, artifact, and so on bonuses, but I'm curious if there's penalties (perhaps weather?). After all, despite their fired up appearance, Sammy doesn't really seem all that happy with the situation, and neither do his troops.


Of course even if they are unhappy with how they ended up there it should still make them fight just as hard if not harder. If your options "you can leave when you meet your objectives or when half of you are dead"... well, I know I'd be putting my all into the former.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:41 am

Reclaimer wrote:Why? Is it because he took her kingdom and captured her lover? You think maybe getting her kingdom and lover back might lower her blood pressure a little?


Well she hasn't got either of her lovers back yet (she did pick up a third in the form of Vinnie)and one of them seems determined to stay serving Stanley, which probably wouldn't make her like him much.

As others have said I find it understandable she would still have a strong desire to get back at Stanley (though if I remember rightly Stanley was a bit surprised she hated him).

That is and always has been the leading assumption, but I've never bought into that. Status quo would be resuming services as a mercenary contractor against a marketable opponent. The battlefield is ever-changing; he's not gonna switch his entire established game plan just because one side starts winning.


I don't know, I think Charlie has the potential to think up worst case scenarios better than most. GK and Decryption have the potential to radically change Erfworld. If they succeeded in making a one side world, well so much for Charlie's business model. That is of course if he isn't dead/decrypted along with everyone else and his arkentool taken by the side talking about titanic mandates and gathering the tools together.

Really, for Charlie to do nothing and just going on with the merc business is like Caesar saying they shouldn't be in the war because of money or Haggar planning petty betrayals during a pivotal battle while GK goes from strength to strength.

TamLin wrote:Perhaps it's just me, but when Sammy said "Ask Charlie" I thought that perhaps this meant even he didn't know what his objectives were. That certainly seems like an appropriately dick move for Charlie to pull; "You have a goal, but I won't let you know what it is, you just have to guess or hope that you achieve it accidentally before sustaining too many casualties. Have fun."


I'm not to sure about that - the stakes are high so I don't see Charlie playing malicious games at a time like this. You tell Haggar what they have to do and say they can only leave when it is done or half of them are dead. That should make them fight all the harder to get the job done rather then loose half the army.

gazes_also wrote:Keeps Slately and Trammenis alienated


Why that one? Trem isn't particularly alienated at the moment, and presumably the death of Decrypted Ansom was something they always thought was on the cards. Certainly Trem suggested killing Wanda was the wiser course of action and that it could very well get rid of the decrypted all together.

I actually think Charlie is trying to protect Jillian, so the primary objective is to have Sammy capture Ansom so she doesn't risk herself doing it. The secondary objective - eliminate the the archery units so her flyers can go in untouched if the second wave is necessary.


That interests me as well - Charlie seem very interested in Jillian's well beingnder why. Slately is just looking at her as a resource to use against Wanda in this battle. But Charlie... even after she went off script and made it clear she wouldn't be fighting Wanda he has apparently decided to continue to support her. He doesn't want her risking herself to greatly.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Ditto » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:05 am

It's been established that Stanley could pay to upgrade Parson and give him move, but he doens't feel like it. Charlie probably has no idea. Certain high-value units simply don't leave the capital. It's rare to see ruler outside of it, I don't think Maggie is ever far from Stanley's side, and Sizemore has left perhaps three times in the last 90 turns to go rebuild cities.

My theory is that Charlie is a Unicorn.

And it's pissed.

I can't disagree with that, Bland. And I might even have to sig it.
Altima,I don't recall anyone saying there was a speciesist rule governing who can be an overlord. If a heavy like Parson can be CWL, anything is possible! :)
SteveMB wrote:The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:28 am

randomstar wrote:wild territory speculation: Charlie and Banhammer where real rivals, and one of the secrets Charlie don't want to spill is that he talked (via predictamancer?) Wanda into calling Stanley, giving him support, or twisting the outcome of the attack. Some of his archons could have been around the time of Faq destruction, and could tell Wanda or Jillian something, if properly asked.

well, I know it's far-fetched, but Charlie is a master in providing troubles (and offering non-cheap solutions, too)...


I also like that idea. But maybe Charley's concern wasn't to get rid of Banhammer, but of Stanley. An other attuned arkenwielder would have been trouble (and he would), so sending him to a suicide mission would solve that. And what better place to hide an arkentool than a hidden kingdom in impassable mountains? And with Faqs weak military it would have been no problem to get the arkenhammer later if required. 50 archons should do that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby copperhamster » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:23 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
Altima wrote:(or her, I still maintain Charlie is a woman)


Yeah, all this insisting on "male voice" whenever it's about Charlie is too obviously a red herring.

My theory is that Charlie is a Unicorn.

And it's pissed.

I'm telling you, Charlie's a tuna.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby copperhamster » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:55 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:Rock on Haggar, rock on.


Hmmm, objectives. So Haggar/Sammy likely have a target but Charlie wasn't too heavy handed with them - he hasn't forced them to fight to the death.

Well, they made a deal. "Fight to the death with all your units or I croak your side" is too much. If they do that, there will be nearly nothing left to later defend their territory. With half their force gone they lose the ability to go on the offensive but have a reasonable chance to return home and defend their kingdom once all this is done with. If they are all annihilated in this action then they might as well gamble on resisting Charlie's possible attack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby effataigus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:24 pm

I'm curious about the 1/2 amount also.

If Charlie made this amount too large then Haggar probably wouldn't do it just because it would devastate Haggar's side and leave them nothing to shore up their capital's defenses with in the long run.

If Charlie made it too small Haggar could intentionally lay down and die just so that most of the GK forces are still alive to mess up Jetstone and FAQ.

It clearly wasn't too large for Sammy to take the bait. Was it too small?

I think Sammy should have called Charlie's bluff and returned home (unless Sammy is legitimately concerned about GK). Charlie would make a lot of enemies if he, an attuned, wiped out a royal side when Haggar was ostensibly coming to help the RCC2. This would also require that Charlie redirect a ton of forces away from whatever their current involvement is in this battle.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby gazes_also » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:08 pm

effataigus wrote:I'm curious about the 1/2 amount also.

If Charlie made this amount too large then Haggar probably wouldn't do it just because it would devastate Haggar's side and leave them nothing to shore up their capital's defenses with in the long run.

If Charlie made it too small Haggar could intentionally lay down and die just so that most of the GK forces are still alive to mess up Jetstone and FAQ.

It clearly wasn't too large for Sammy to take the bait. Was it too small?

I think Sammy should have called Charlie's bluff and returned home (unless Sammy is legitimately concerned about GK). Charlie would make a lot of enemies if he, an attuned, wiped out a royal side when Haggar was ostensibly coming to help the RCC2. This would also require that Charlie redirect a ton of forces away from whatever their current involvement is in this battle.


The other side of that is that the 'objectives' must be clearly defined and reasonably achievable.

If they're not defined and Sammy is waiting for Charlie to say 'Enough' then Sammy could just send half his column over and head home with the rest.

If they're not reasonably achievable, such as wipeout the whole column, then he knows from the outset that he's just going to lose half his men so why fight hard.

The objectives have to be costly but achievable; such that if Sammy is really smart, uses all his skills and his troops committed and disciplined they can be achieved at a loss of about a third his men. That way he has an incentive to do his best for the coalition.
Also with half his large force gone, he will have an incentive to stay with the coalition, as they won't be able to stand alone for a while. I wonder if Charlie also used the carrot that he would help protect the weaken Haggar in the event that GK attacked it.

I still don't think Charlie was bluffing, he wanted the RCC to win big and Haggar was the weak link from the start the need for leverage on them was obvious (the communication between Slately and Dickie probably went through Charlescomm)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby pSycHOtic chICkeN » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:09 pm

Haggar benefits if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. Charlie might benefit if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. FAQ and Transylvito might benefit if Jetstone loses troops fighting Gobwin Gnob. Even Gobwin Gnob should prefer that Tremenis fights Ansom's column for the same reasons that Tremenis and Slately thought it was a bad idea.

The presence of Haggar's forces behind Jetstone was making them hesitate. If Sammy moves his column over exposition bridge Jetstone has no reason to hesitate. Haggar might have a way of communicating with Gobein Gnob. Charley has multiple ways of communicating with Gobwin Gnob. Gobwin Gnob is now trying to survive and might not care if some siege weapons are lost. I thought it was odd that Sammy actually discouraged Jillian from flying in alongside Haggar's column.

If I was Sammy, I would contact Gobwin Gnob and tell them to leave a corridor slightly wider than the bridge so that Haggar's army can march through and capture the siege engines. Ansom can close the gap after they pass. Crossing the bridge and taking the siege engines is an objective that Charley might agree to. It also keeps up Haggar's appearance as ally. If Jetstone does not follow over exposition bridge it will look like Jetstone betrayed Haggar. Haggar would retain all options. If Jetstone loses most of its forces fighting Ansome and then loses more croaking Wanda Sammy might be able to break alliance and sack the capitol. If Jetstone fails and loses it's army Sammy can also sack the capitol. If Jetstone wipes out Gobwin Gnob Sammy can claim to have been a loyal ally methodically achieving his assigned objective, and gets to take home the siege equipment and anything looted from Gobwin Gnob's baggage train.

That scenario also allows Rob to keep us in suspense and delay actual combat for another update.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby teratorn » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:12 pm

copperhamster wrote:I'm telling you, Charlie's a tuna.


Talk about bad puns. Charlie's a tuna to the arkendish. ugh...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby effataigus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:38 pm

The other side of that is that the 'objectives' must be clearly defined and reasonably achievable.


Ah! Good point.

Also, for anyone as slow as me regarding the Charlie tuna connection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarKist_Tuna

also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chali_2na

Oh wikipedia... I might be even more culturally irrelevant without you.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Reclaimer » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:02 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:As others have said I find it understandable she would still have a strong desire to get back at Stanley (though if I remember rightly Stanley was a bit surprised she hated him).


I doubt Stanley even remembered her. It's like getting a drink thrown in your face by a girl you used to date in high school ten years and a few hundred pounds later (To a guy that can't even remember his lackeys' names). I understand that Jillian will always have a motive for revenge, but on the boards she tends to get simplified into an 8BT Fighter-style character when she's actually shown herself to be pretty complicated. Remember that she's now sovereign ruler of a kingdom that, at the very height of its power, Stanley basically took by himself.

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:[I also like that idea. But maybe Charley's concern wasn't to get rid of Banhammer, but of Stanley. An other attuned arkenwielder would have been trouble (and he would), so sending him to a suicide mission would solve that. And what better place to hide an arkentool than a hidden kingdom in impassable mountains? And with Faqs weak military it would have been no problem to get the arkenhammer later if required. 50 archons should do that.


I've been considering this too. Stanley was supposed to lose, but that was an incorrect conclusion that Wanda (And easily Charlie as well) drew based on FAQ's predictamancer. If he set Stanley up for a fall, then he's hated him for a very, very long time. Now the question is why.

Edit: If he's responsible for the current Gobwin shortage, could Charlie be behind the mysterious Gobwin revolution that killed off GK's King Saline? He was a Royal (Obviously), which would mean ol' Citizen Chuck's guilty of regicide; he would DEF-IN-ITE-LY want to keep that a secret. It also means that he's completely and totally authored his own nemesis here, which could go a ways towards explaining the animosity between the two.

Edit 2: This one seems pretty obvious now that I think about it: What are the odds Vurp's under an NDA re: Saline's death?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby Sinrus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:07 pm

Here's my guess. Wanda said that tool wielders know (to varying degrees) that the tools are meant to be brought together. It explains Charlie's eagerness to obtain the arkenpliers at the very least. It could also explain Charlie's and Stanley's mutual hatred.

Both know that they must collect every tool. They know for hundreds of turns that the other has one. However, there's no chance of either one giving up the tool or of turning. So it begets resentment, anger, and eventually hate.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 26

Postby effataigus » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:40 pm

I've been considering this too. Stanley was supposed to lose, but that was an incorrect conclusion that Wanda (And easily Charlie as well) drew based on FAQ's predictamancer. If he set Stanley up for a fall, then he's hated him for a very, very long time. Now the question is why.

Edit: If he's responsible for the current Gobwin shortage, could Charlie be behind the mysterious Gobwin revolution that killed off GK's King Saline? He was a Royal (Obviously), which would mean ol' Citizen Chuck's guilty of regicide; he would DEF-IN-ITE-LY want to keep that a secret. It also means that he's completely and totally authored his own nemesis here, which could go a ways towards explaining the animosity between the two.

Edit 2: This one seems pretty obvious now that I think about it: What are the odds Vurp's under an NDA re: Saline's death?


ooooOOOoooo... that does tie a couple seemingly unrelated observations together. Especially since we've seen that Charlie does think to meddle with natural allies (Jitterati and the Giants). I can imagine he promised the goblins that Stanley wasn't coming back... which explains something I've always wondered... why they would revolt if Stanley could retake them so easily.

Good one!

Also, Sammy v. Zombies on music video extra post = RAD.
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