Book 2 – Page 21

Page by page discussion of the comic.

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby MarbitChow » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:39 pm

There's a real simple 'fix' to the Time Warp spell that prevents it from being broken:

The side who's turn ended abruptly still gets to finish their turn at the end of the day (with all units healing/ full move & juice restored, etc), and turn order returns to the 'default' the next day.

The spell could be very tactically advantageous, but not subject to horrific abuse.
User avatar
MarbitChow
 
Posts: 2510
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:44 pm

gazes_also wrote:A couple of points
On Volcano v Time Warp 'asymmetry'. {...}


You're missing it.

The volcano incident was Parson being compelled by Duty to give an order he regretted even then. The volcano incident required that three characters that we knew and grew fond of enter a life-threatening mind link. The volcano incident was Parson finding a way to cheat the world and because of that, something to be kept unique.

There's your asymmetry.

gazes_also wrote:Looking this from a character rather than a rules drive perspective, it is entirely consistent and valid. {...}


Did it REALLY have to be this? Couldn't the trap be something different? We know air defenses work and are very effective even out-of-your turn, for instance.

The fact that this was a trap, and that the character interaction screamed trap from the get-go, does not change the fact that the author chose a poor trap for once.

These things happen; a story is never uniformly good. This is the moment of my disappointment in Erfworld, but I fully expect things to get better on the next updates.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby fjolnir » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:48 pm

here's what we have, GK's turn ended and now they can only attack the tower with what forces entered spacerock's hex AND can't press their attack further than the tower until their next turn(attackers use move to attack within city zones), also ansom is going to have to defend against the 3 casters and jetstone's army, plus whatever haggar is planning, this is advantageous but hardly completely 'broken'
Also on casting, out of turn casting is hardly the norm, charlie Takes calls not Makes them when it isn't his turn, certain effects like air defences and the zombcano are effective only if "defensive casting" is remotely possible....
User avatar
fjolnir
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 1:40 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Trotsky » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:02 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:OMG trotsky! You're alive! I thought that hammer to the head did you in! :P


Ice axe actually, and I didn't actually die until the next day ;P

BLANDCorporatio wrote:Now on to reply to you. First, yes "positive criticism" is not the same as fanboyism, but when so many people rage against complaints, yeah "negative criticism" needs its champions too.


And please, sir, champion on. your arguments tend towards "this is how I feel and this is why" instead of "this is how I feel and your an idiot for thinking differently" and are usually a very good read.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:IF the impact you're looking for is "oh my, that was really clever of X", then such limitations need to be specified beforehand.


This comes down to a difference in viewpoints. I'm perfectly willing, and happy, to figure out how clever X was being after the fact.


BLANDCorporatio wrote:And there was a better solution available. The one I quoted in my post. It would have kept things nice and tight all the way, as even if GK took Spacerock, Jetstone had enough archers and a Dittomancer to cause the fliers a world of hurt on their turn.


Whether that *edited due to my assigning credit incorrectly* solution was better really comes down to how the rest of this goes down. The author knows where he is going with this while we do not, yet. Only when we get to the end of this story arc can we effectively analyze whether we feel it was done in the most appropriate manner.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The fact that this was a trap, and that the character interaction screamed trap from the get-go, does not change the fact that the author chose a poor trap for once.

These things happen; a story is never uniformly good. This is the moment of my disappointment in Erfworld, but I fully expect things to get better on the next updates.


To turn around something you said earlier, you may find this solution a wee bit ill-considered, but I and several others like it.
Last edited by Trotsky on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:"Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


DoctorJest, if I weren't referentially married to my sig I'd use that instead.
User avatar
Trotsky
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Hatu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:04 pm

trotsky wrote:
Oberon wrote: This trick, however, has no such apparent limitations.


Setting up the limitations for such a thing before hand just might have reduced the dramatic effect of the reveal. That being said, if such limitations are not at least referenced later (preferably expounded upon), then we have a problem.

That being said, it would have been humorous for Jillian to say "Turnamancer! Now that we have fulfilled all of the specific requirements, Let's do the time warp."


I disagree. The text updates already told us that GK was about to suffer a disaster. Seeing the time warp unfold wouldn't have removed any surprise factor because there was none. But establishing the costs and rules of that spell would have made it feel like much less of an authorial fiat, and we'd be spared the upcoming clunky exposition about why this particular trick isn't used all the time as a matter of course. Plus, if the setup was well handled, watching the parts click together would have been enjoyable in its own right.

I really respect Erfworld for its creativity and attention to detail, and often for its excellent characters. But I think it plays far too fast and loose with the rules of the universe. Half the rules we learn are outright false, announced only to surprise us when it's revealed that the source of the rule was mistaken. The other half are so riddled with caveats, loopholes, dramatic license and exceptions as to barely qualify as rules in the first place. I've long since given up on speculating about what will happen next, because anything could happen regardless of whether or not it makes sense within the context of what's happened before.

But beyond my usual problems with the murky rules of Erfworld, this feels like a big step back to book 1 storytelling. We've once again had GK come up with a clever move to circumvent the conventional plans of an enemy, only to have the enemy sandbag them (and us) with an amazing trick no one contemplated before it happened. I was hoping we'd try something new in Book 2. I hate sequels that are the original movie all over again.

-H
Hatu
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 7:10 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:05 pm

Oberon wrote:We don't really know this to be the case. The authors have played very loose since the originally stated "Can't cast on the enemies turn" restriction was revealed, and then violated many times. The actual mechanics of casting are about as clear as mud. Charlie, for example, can obviously cast multiple thinkagrams on the turns of other sides, without any fighting going on. Explained as a fair case of a broken rule due to his Arkendish? Fine, but that just makes any argument that Charlie can't end someone's turn at any point invalid by the same explanation.

And even if the "must be in the same hex as the enemy to cast" restriction is correct, there are ways to 'sploit this mechanic. Charley is supposedly not allied with Jetstone, since the royals save Jillian are shunning him as non-royal Tool. Does his link with a unit in the hex of a non-allied side give him the ability to support off-turn casting? Who knows. Is Jillian allied with Jetstone? Is Vanna Jillian's unit? Or TVs? Or Charlies? I'm not sure any of this has been made clear.


Charley is not a caster (presumably). He is attuned to an arkentool and using its abilities. So he does not cast and is not bound to the normal rules for casters. In a two-way link, the thinkamancer mainly works as mental pilot for the other caster, boosting his mental abilities and his juice. With his arkentool Charley prolly can boost a caster's mind into the stratosphere and make him something like a epic-epic caster. That also explains why he doesn't have to be in the same hex: He just sends a continuous thinkagramm and remote controls the other caster. maybe a normal thinkamancer theoretical also could innate a long distance link, but would run out of juice in minutes or doesn't have the mental ability to cast a thinkagramm and guide another casters mind at the same time.

The rule that casters can't cast out of turn has so far been only violated by thinkamancers, when they contact units, relay orders or ask for status. But "real" spells like a thinkagram we haven't seen so far from them (a.k.a. Maggie and Bunny). Except for that casters have only used magic out of turn when enemies units were in the same hex. Or they used magic items.

And while the spell used is extremely powerful and changed the game, it's not gamebreaking. The spell can only buy time and only if the enemy makes a mistake. Without additional reinforcements from the whole gambit would have been less useful. It's also a sheer defensive tactic and can only be used on another turn, and only if the enemy attacks the hex with the caster.
I love uncroaked Dora. I love an anonymous friend even more.

Only one man has understood me, and even he has not!
User avatar
Welf von Ehrwald
 
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:57 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby durandal » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:07 pm

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
durandal wrote: I feel an unnecessary broken ability just got pulled out of nowhere.


I don't know about out of nowhere. The idea that a linked up turnamancer, or a very high level turnamancer, could potentially have the ability to do something to turns has been raised in these forums on a number of occasions, as well as whether it would be too powerful or not. Move a side forward in the order, end a turn, etc.


You are correct that a turnamancer ace in the whole was foreshadowed. What I was trying to describe is the fact that while we clearly saw the price/struggle/sacrifice involved in causing the volcano and acquiring the arkenpliers. This ability was just revealed without any apparent effort. It just seems so easy that I'm left wondering why Charlie doesn't just employee omnipotent tri-links every battle.

Point 1) it is a broken ability.
I've yet to see evidence that you cannot cast on other side's turns (maggie mentions needed to save juice for opponent turns and GK is not likely to be engaged).


I'm fairly sure something about it came up in book one. And Maggie is the communication hub, receiving info, which might be a different effect then the spell we see here.


People keep brining up the point you must be engaged to cast so it probably is mentioned somewhere. However, we never seen a character actually limited by it. No caster has ever said "we need them to attack us first" or "sure, I'll do it first thing next dawn". Thinkagrams are also flying all over the place from charlie and bunny as well as maggie. So if the rule does exist it may be loose enough to not matter. I.e. any unit in your side must be engaged, or as soon as the first enemy touches your hex boundary, if you "think" you are under attack(veiled units possibly in the hex).

catch units out of position (what didn't they just catch Stanely out dragon hunting?) ,


Well, they would have to have known where he would be and then have sufficient forces in GK's battlespaces to get him on his dwagon and get past the Archon scouts that would have warned him troops where in the area.

And again - we don't know exactly how it works.


We know something is up near GK due to the goblin disappearances. So presumably one side has units looking around there. Anyone using a lookamancer could also know and have passed the information to other sides. Finally, the archons are going as scouts not in force. All they need do is clear that there are no enemies in the area before Stanley heads out because by the normal rules of erfworld he should be unattackable. So if you did know what Stanely is up to you could probably have mustered a force large enough to croak Stanely and some lackeys. Obviously the RCC/Charley may not know, but I was just pointing out there are game-breaking uses of this power.

or double tap an enemy by attacking ending their turn and attacking again (Parson would have destroyed ALL the RCC siege and been homefree if he had this ability at TBFGK).


And he didn't have this ability because he didn't have the right casters. He did have the right casters to cause a volcanic eruption though, wiping out that entire army.


Once again I was pointing out a situation where having this power is game-breaking. Parson of course couldn't use it there, but imagine if he could have.

Unless there are some AMAZING costs or restrictions to this spell it is simply broken.


I don't see it, and you didn't really give any examples of how it is broken, just ways it could be used that may or may not work, since we don't know the frequency it can be cast, its cost etc. Plus a lot of that depends on the "a spell can be cast that effects the enemy even if it isn't your turn and even if the enemy isn't attacking you in your battlespace".


The enemy in your battlespace requirement isn't that much of a restriction. You are at war and unless you already overpower them your enemy will attack you and just have to have ANY unit of theirs in your space to cast. Scouting bat goes into your hex? End Turn. First unit touches your undefended castle wall? End Turn. If your enemy doesn't know you can do this (which is pretty much guaranteed in this case) you can set up your forces to essentially guarantee their turn is skipped.

True the definition of broken is subjective but I think the ability to:
1) Catch units in a defenseless position - possibly destroying essential units like siege, flyers, casters, or simply your ruler instantly eliminating the entire side
2)Halt any attack - allowing reinforcements, healing, popping of units, and 1) all at the same time
3)Double tapping of armies
is pretty crazy.

There was an option to include ANY possible spell imaginable at this point in the story. It could have been a completely different caster there if necessary. There are plenty of possible spells which could have been effective without being broken and probably much much cooler. They could have shielded the airspace, snared the fliers, buffed their units, unleashed a massive Kamehameha and destroyed 96% of them, whatever. All would have done the job of stopping the assault cold. Instead of feeling "oooh, Wanda got burned!" the turn end gave me more of a "WTF?".


Wait, a spell that would have insta-killed 96% (a slight decrease on Parson's uncroaking of the volcano) of them would have even been preferable to a spell that by the looks of things has to be timed just right to allow existing forces the best chance to outmaneuver the enemy? Massive fireball vs battlefield control and tactics?


Yes actually. Remember, said fireball would have only mauled the flyer force. Ground forces and probably wanda would be ok. More importantly we were all expecting GK to get punched in the nose here. Wanda might as well have launched the attack and in her arrogance said nothing can go wrong and thank god she's retiring after this fight. So we were willing to see GK take a big hit, and a insta-death beam is simply a very powerful version of the shockomancy and anti-air we've already seen and accepted in erfworld. I don't mind if a player pulls out impressive units, I do mind when you suddenly take control of what should be my choices. Also I think there are more ways to avoid a death beam than this potentially fatal turn end.
durandal
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:19 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:17 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:This was not the pleasant surprise kind.

Again, things can be surprising but they work best if they are prepared. This implies more than foreshadowing. Having a coherent picture of the world, that you can then and only after then find loopholes in, is way better than introducing a surprise and adjusting the rules after the fact.


I guess it comes down to how one views such things. That it was foreshadowed fills the gap for preparation we couldn't really know about (since presumably the magician can't give too many hints away about how his trick is performed before he does it) in my view, and I'm not really sure what about this display of likely boosted turnamancy required an adjustment to the rules.

Oh, but things have been solved. One "argument" for why this was such a swell development is that it allows Trem, Thufir and Sammy t have an impact on the battle, as well as stopping GK curb-stomping everyone.


Ah, got you.

You may like this solution, but I and several others find a wee bit ill-considered.


It's more I don't have a problem with the development (I don't consider it a solution at this stage) storywise. It isn't what I was expecting, but I don't find it disappointing. Nor do I really see it is game breaking (for those that said it is) since it is always something I thought seemed within the range of a linked up turnamancer with suitable limitations.

I remember the subject coming up with PlotArmour at some point, many a thread ago (obviously he viewed it the same as everything if I remember rightly - a DEM). I thought a high juice spell that couldn't be used over and over again, so you have to save it for just the right time to give an edge in that battle seemed reasonable. Or use in a trap.

And if we're not in "uber all powerful magic" territory yet, this update was a step in that direction.


Eh, caster link ups are still rare, and probably will remain rare forever. Getting the necessary casters together for this spell is also uncommon. Storywise this situation took some setting up on the part of Charlie/Jillian, and might still have hidden costs (as I said, I expect Vanna will die if it is a link up).

So I don't personally see it as moving towards uber, all powerful magic territory, more just displaying another example from already known, but still mysterious territory. Uber magic is available if you have the resources, and if you use it at the right time and place and in the right way it is well worth the expense and risk.

And there was a better solution available. The one I quoted in my post. It would have kept things nice and tight all the way, as even if GK took Spacerock, Jetstone had enough archers and a Dittomancer to cause the fliers a world of hurt on their turn.


Maybe, though I kind of touched on that somewhere (posting up a storm here :D ). It would have seemed overly convenient for Jillian to have brought along her turnamancer just to have the chance for her to make Trem heir and then have no other great contribution.

Jillian/Charlie wouldn't have known such an ability would be required in this battle, since they shouldn't have known about Oss being lost so early. Unless predictamancers entered into things. On the other hand that Jillian and Charlie had a plan has long been known, that the mystery caster who is Vanna would play a part also seemed certain from the moment we learned Jillian had a caster with her.

The volcano incident was Parson being compelled by Duty to give an order he regretted even then. The volcano incident required that three characters that we knew and grew fond of enter a life-threatening mind link. The volcano incident was Parson finding a way to cheat the world and because of that, something to be kept unique.


I think they are a bit apply and orangy. No other caster is as well known to us as those of GK, and thus will never have the same impact seeing them at risk. Nor will any side generate similar to what Parson's facing his duty.

But we do know link ups are possible, just possible outcomes are unknown.

They shouldn't be limited just to GK to make Parson's original creation seem unique. It always will be, for the reason you listed. But other sides, smart sides, should have the option open, especially if dire times such as this. If it can be portrayed as a smart tactic that took preparation and effort to pull off, then it is special in its own way. In this case it isn't cheating the world, it is just finding out what can be done with the right resources.

MarbitChow wrote:There's a real simple 'fix' to the Time Warp spell that prevents it from being broken:

The side who's turn ended abruptly still gets to finish their turn at the end of the day (with all units healing/ full move & juice restored, etc), and turn order returns to the 'default' the next day.


I could imagine something like that happening.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
User avatar
Dancing Cthulhu
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Ansan Gotti » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:18 pm

Hatu wrote:I disagree. The text updates already told us that GK was about to suffer a disaster. Seeing the time warp unfold wouldn't have removed any surprise factor because there was none. But establishing the costs and rules of that spell would have made it feel like much less of an authorial fiat, and we'd be spared the upcoming clunky exposition about why this particular trick isn't used all the time as a matter of course. Plus, if the setup was well handled, watching the parts click together would have been enjoyable in its own right.

I really respect Erfworld for its creativity and attention to detail, and often for its excellent characters. But I think it plays far too fast and loose with the rules of the universe. Half the rules we learn are outright false, announced only to surprise us when it's revealed that the source of the rule was mistaken. The other half are so riddled with caveats, loopholes, dramatic license and exceptions as to barely qualify as rules in the first place. I've long since given up on speculating about what will happen next, because anything could happen regardless of whether or not it makes sense within the context of what's happened before.

But beyond my usual problems with the murky rules of Erfworld, this feels like a big step back to book 1 storytelling. We've once again had GK come up with a clever move to circumvent the conventional plans of an enemy, only to have the enemy sandbag them (and us) with an amazing trick no one contemplated before it happened. I was hoping we'd try something new in Book 2. I hate sequels that are the original movie all over again.


Speaking generally and broadly, I tend to agree with the sentiment expressed above... but then part of me also hated reading through Book One as it unfolded, and every move of Parson's was countered in an exceedingly and increasingly unlikely fashion, only to have it all make perfect sense at the end in a very satisfying way. So although I'm not thrilled with this particular direction at this moment, I'm prepared to reserve judgment until Book Two is done. Rob has certainly earned that much trust, IMO, and it's one reason I'm not more exercised about this, even though I think it does "break" the most fundamental and important rule of a turn-based environment.
Ansan Gotti
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:30 pm

trotsky, Dancing Cthulhu,

as the saying goes we'll have to agree to disagree. This update has received way too many reactions compared to the others, and if I'm so disappointed in it I shouldn't be beefing that number up. Much :P

But one clarification is needed urgently (emphasis added):

trotsky wrote:Whether your solution was better really comes down to how the rest of this goes down. The author knows where he is going with this while we do not, yet. Only when we get to the end of this story arc can we effectively analyze whether we feel it was done in the most appropriate manner.


It was, I think, a brilliant bit of speculation, but alas it's not mine. I forgot whose it was unfortunately.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Ragn Charran » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:34 pm

Okay, maybe this has been said, but I don't have time to read 14 pages of replies here.

I think it's obvious that the turnamancer is in a link, and therefore this is no more an ass-saving gamebreaker as having full view of your entire battlespace or uncroaking a volcano. The evidence I see is:

1. Linkage requires a thinkamancer. Jillian is allied with Charlie, who has gamebreaking thinkamancy skills due to his Arkentool, just like Wanda has gamebreaking croakamancy skills and Stanley has gamebreaking recruitment skills.
2. Until actively casting, Vanna is wearing a hood over her eyes and being silent, just like the casters in the original recon link. http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/026.jpg
3. Charlie is VERY concerned about Slately talking to her, to the point of exposing himself with his mental bitchslap (given enough time, an already suspicious Slately could grow theories on who mentally attacked him, and no one that I'm aware of could have done it other than Charlie).
4. Jillian, the queen of hating titles (pun intended), issues the order to her as Turnamancer, not Vanna, just like Stanley had to refer to Maggie, Misty, and Jack by their unit type, not name.

Now, for all the accusations that this is becoming all about the gamebreakers and no longer about strategy, why the boop are you surprised? http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/141.jpg

Erfworld - the world, not the story - used to be based on rules, and strategy based on those rules. Gamebreaking existed (and had at least been partially conceived of by Stanley of all people http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/047.jpg), but Parson's arrival has sparked a fire, demonstrated irrovocably that breaking the game is the only way to win.

http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/134.jpg

But that doesn't mean strategy flies out the window. Strategy is about creativity and about outguessing your opponent, to the best of your ability and to the best of your knowledge about their abilities, and having backup plans and contingencies in place to cover the unknown, to react to the unexpected.

http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uploads/book1/124.jpg

The game, as a set of mechanics that can be broken through creative use of magic, hasn't changed. The definition of strategy (as established in the story, before anyone starts throwing dictionary semantics at me) hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed is how the game is played, and that was the whole reason Parson was introduced into the world in the first place!
So, Uncle Xykon, what's the moral of the story?
...And they died happily ever after. The End.
Order of the Stick #657
User avatar
Ragn Charran
YOTD Supporter!
YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby gazes_also » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:38 pm

The volcano incident was Parson being compelled by Duty to give an order he regretted even then. The volcano incident required that three characters that we knew and grew fond of enter a life-threatening mind link. The volcano incident was Parson finding a way to cheat the world and because of that, something to be kept unique.

There's your asymmetry.


And in giving this order Jillian puts the only three people who matter to her at risk of death ( Ansom, Jack and Wanda), because her appeal to Wanda was rejected. She also reveals to Slately that she has been working with Charlie behind his back which could result in her being alienated from the alliance. She's making hard choices, no longer the barbarian merc who did as she pleased, she's calling the shots and learning to be a queen. It also seems possible that being a channel for Charlie's power could croak Vanna, which she might accept as the price to strike back for lost her Queen.

Cost enough for you?


Did it REALLY have to be this? Couldn't the trap be something different? We know air defenses work and are very effective even out-of-your turn, for instance.


No, a sneak attack, blunt instrument trap which leaves characters no options but to fight would not work as well. This is a change in the balance of power, Wanda and Jillian still have unfinished business here and this reverse still gives them both options. Jillian could still keep her offer open now she has the upper hand and Wanda may still have the chance to switch and save her own skin so she can fulfill her destiny. There's is still a lot of stuff up in the air that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
User avatar
gazes_also
I am a Tool!
I am a Tool!
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Trotsky » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:39 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:
trotsky wrote:Whether your solution was better really comes down to how the rest of this goes down. The author knows where he is going with this while we do not, yet. Only when we get to the end of this story arc can we effectively analyze whether we feel it was done in the most appropriate manner.


It was, I think, a brilliant bit of speculation, but alas it's not mine. I forgot whose it was unfortunately.


Fair enough. My apologies to the solutions progenitor.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:
DoctorJest wrote:"Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


DoctorJest, if I weren't referentially married to my sig I'd use that instead.
User avatar
Trotsky
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:42 pm

trotsky wrote:
BLANDCorporatio wrote:Now on to reply to you. First, yes "positive criticism" is not the same as fanboyism, but when so many people rage against complaints, yeah "negative criticism" needs its champions too.


And please, sir, champion on. your arguments tend towards "this is how I feel and this is why" instead of "this is how I feel and your an idiot for thinking differently" and are usually a very good read.


Agreed.

durandal wrote:You are correct that a turnamancer ace in the whole was foreshadowed. What I was trying to describe is the fact that while we clearly saw the price/struggle/sacrifice involved in causing the volcano and acquiring the arkenpliers. This ability was just revealed without any apparent effort. It just seems so easy that I'm left wondering why Charlie doesn't just employee omnipotent tri-links every battle.


I kind of touched on this above - we can't expect every link up to have the same impact, even if they are very useful ones. We know about them - GK was using one and it killed Misty. Duncan is wearing an item created in one, Sizemore tells us about a popular type involving luck and math.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that concerned sides might, story wise, resort to a link up at a pivotal moment. Maybe, as and if the case here, plan involving one. This isn't an insta-kill situation, it is a development in an ongoing battle which, to my eye, has been well enough executed. It is a tactical move on Jillian and Charlie's part, as opposed to Parson being compelled to try one, last, desperate gamble at the very end.

We know something is up near GK due to the goblin disappearances. So presumably one side has units looking around there.


GK did. And they didn't encounter other units beyond Marbits.

Anyone using a lookamancer could also know and have passed the information to other sides.


I'm not sure it quite goes like that, they'd have to be looking for Stanley, why would they be assuming he wasn't safe in his capital?

Finally, the archons are going as scouts not in force. All they need do is clear that there are no enemies in the area before Stanley heads out because by the normal rules of erfworld he should be unattackable. So if you did know what Stanely is up to you could probably have mustered a force large enough to croak Stanely and some lackeys. Obviously the RCC/Charley may not know, but I was just pointing out there are game-breaking uses of this power.


But the archons would report no units, then Stanley would go out. It is unlikely a force could be gathered that has enough move to be far enough away to go undiscovered by the archon scouts, but still get to Stanley when the turn ends.

And I know, although as I said above - not knowing the details of the spell it seems like a weak criticism of it to create broken scenarios to show how broken it is.

Once again I was pointing out a situation where having this power is game-breaking. Parson of course couldn't use it there, but imagine if he could have.


Yes - if he could have. If is the big question, and I'll reserve judgment on the brokenness of it till more details are revealed. At this time I don't personally think a link up enabled end turn spell is too over the top bad at all, but I'm imagining one that can only be used rarely.

Yes actually. Remember, said fireball would have only mauled the flyer force. Ground forces and probably wanda would be ok...


Well, again, that would have required Charlie and Jillian be prepared for a primarily flight based opponent, which GK tried to hide, and seemed to have done successfully.

True the definition of broken is subjective but I think the ability to:
1) Catch units in a defenseless position - possibly destroying essential units like siege, flyers, casters, or simply your ruler instantly eliminating the entire side
2)Halt any attack - allowing reinforcements, healing, popping of units, and 1) all at the same time
3)Double tapping of armies
is pretty crazy.


Well... Erfworld casters have nothing on a high end DnD mage in this department (more on an individual level) :D
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
User avatar
Dancing Cthulhu
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby badninja » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:45 pm

Ansan Gotti wrote:Speaking generally and broadly, I tend to agree with the sentiment expressed above... but then part of me also hated reading through Book One as it unfolded, and every move of Parson's was countered in an exceedingly and increasingly unlikely fashion, only to have it all make perfect sense at the end in a very satisfying way. So although I'm not thrilled with this particular direction at this moment, I'm prepared to reserve judgment until Book Two is done. Rob has certainly earned that much trust, IMO, and it's one reason I'm not more exercised about this, even though I think it does "break" the most fundamental and important rule of a turn-based environment.


You kinda answer your own question there, the wold is still playing ageist Parson IMHO. This is round two and with many of the major players back in play we as readers need to be expecting the unexpected. We where forewarned about many things like Charlie being allied with Jillian, that this battle was going to cause confusion, TV having an upset former heir designate, and one of the RCC 2 looking to back stab. Yea, with only one of the aforementioned things having happened that this battle is sowing confusion, we have yet to see what else is going to happen.

This is not factoring in what Charlie has planed, because many of us see him as one of the smartest and most dangerous people in Erfworld right now that we know of. The spell used that ended GK's turn is something that Charlie and Parson would think up and I think that some people are upset that Charlie beat parson to using such a cool spell. I may sound like a Charlie fan boy but he is by far and away the most dangerous person that Parson must contend with. Charlie will not only try and croak Parson but do it in a way where Parson will know that he is screwed with no way out. So I view this spell as a screw you to Parson and a way to prevent Parson from having a major impact of this battle.

Secondly if Parson is a Hippymancer, is there any branch of this school that could stop or prevent this type of spell? I keep thinking that there has been some suggestions but I cannot remember where I saw this.
I came, I saw, I had fun!
badninja
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
YOTD + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:46 am
Location: Tatooine

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:59 pm

gazes_also wrote: It also seems possible that being a channel for Charlie's power could croak Vanna, which she might accept as the price to strike back for lost her Queen.


I definitely think it is possible.

No, a sneak attack, blunt instrument trap which leaves characters no options but to fight would not work as well. This is a change in the balance of power, Wanda and Jillian still have unfinished business here and this reverse still gives them both options. Jillian could still keep her offer open now she has the upper hand and Wanda may still have the chance to switch and save her own skin so she can fulfill her destiny. There's is still a lot of stuff up in the air that wouldn't be possible otherwise.


I'm actually wondering if Slately might mess things up for Jillian. The end turn spell, as I see it, is a big battlefield control move that has to be timed right, maybe giving you one chance to swing things in your favour (since if you can't kill those dwagons or whatever they will be there next turn).

I'd like to think he is wiser then that, but I could imagine Slately wanting to concentrate on Wanda and his decrypted sons, so two targets (sorry Oss) Jillian won't want to see harmed. Captured maybe, but not harmed.

BLANDCorporatio wrote:as the saying goes we'll have to agree to disagree. This update has received way too many reactions compared to the others, and if I'm so disappointed in it I shouldn't be beefing that number up. Much :P


But at this rate we could make this the most posted in reactions thread to date. :D

(Although I'll probably stop now as well, it is very late, or actually very early here *yawn*)

badninja wrote: This is not factoring in what Charlie has planed, because many of us see him as one of the smartest and most dangerous people in Erfworld right now that we know of. The spell used that ended GK's turn is something that Charlie and Parson would think up and I think that some people are upset that Charlie beat parson to using such a cool spell. I may sound like a Charlie fan boy but he is by far and away the most dangerous person that Parson must contend with. Charlie will not only try and croak Parson but do it in a way where Parson will know that he is screwed with no way out. So I view this spell as a screw you to Parson and a way to prevent Parson from having a major impact of this battle.


I'm hoping Charlie continues to remain on Parson's level. Really so far he hasn't had the same opportunities to demonstrate his ingenuity, his planning. Or chances to outplay/plan Parson. He seems like the smartest Erfworlder, but he has been more of an observer/helper with GK's enemies, then actual enemy to GK himself till lately.

Now, as they say, it is on. Plus Wanda's Toolism needs a schism.

Of course he can still deny involvement unless Archons turn up. Slately, like Vinnie, might well want to know how Vanna achieved this, and he might not take Jillian's non-answers on the subject.

Secondly if Parson is a Hippymancer, is there any branch of this school that could stop or prevent this type of spell? I keep thinking that there has been some suggestions but I cannot remember where I saw this.


Well, flower power seems to affect the perception of time at least, and it also happens to be on the Erf axis like flower power. Of course if this is link up enabled magic then no single caster would likely be able to stop it.

Which opens up the interesting situation of dueling caster link up, one trying to do something, the other trying to counter it...

Or maybe date-a-mancy could do something.
Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
User avatar
Dancing Cthulhu
 
Posts: 432
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:49 am
Location: Sydney

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:03 pm

gazes_also wrote:Cost enough for you?


Jillian's the one in the air, she is the one controlling first-hand what can happen to Wanda and Jack; she is not risking anything, rather putting a better hold on what these two can do. Far from risk, this places her on top of the situation, and I think you say so yourself later. You can't have it both ways.

Ansom is far off some place else for all she knows and out of the immediate battle. Vanna's just a new face few people got to care about and if she blows up next panel few would miss her. Charlie working with Jillian, especially after this, would be seen as a Titan-send even by Slately. As for Jillian showing maturity and such, she's been playing under Charlie's orders for several turns now, nothing but a puppet.

The volcano incident was set up as a last-last-last ditch attempt, and it was clear from the get-go that it is something that can only be tried sparingly. That should never be tried at all.

This new thing will need some explaining for why it can't be repeated at will anytime.

So no, not enough cost, or set-up.


gazes_also wrote:No, a sneak attack, blunt instrument trap which leaves characters no options but to fight would not work as well. This is a change in the balance of power, Wanda and Jillian still have unfinished business here and this reverse still gives them both options.


The further developments you mention will come as mitigating factors to this bitter pill.

But the fact that the story can and WILL recover after this does not make this moment any less smacking of authorial fiat.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
User avatar
BLANDCorporatio
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
Tool + YOTD Supporter!
 
Posts: 3446
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:24 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby fractal » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:34 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:This new thing will need some explaining for why it can't be repeated at will anytime.

So no, not enough cost, or set-up.
gazes_also wrote:No, a sneak attack, blunt instrument trap which leaves characters no options but to fight would not work as well. This is a change in the balance of power, Wanda and Jillian still have unfinished business here and this reverse still gives them both options.

The further developments you mention will come as mitigating factors to this bitter pill.

But the fact that the story can and WILL recover after this does not make this moment any less smacking of authorial fiat.

I don't know. This event is pulling at my suspension of disbelief; there certainly needs to be an explanation of why this can't be done more often. However, I think the author has definitely earned the time to provide such an explanation, and I don't find the foreshadowing to have been inadequate. Surprises that don't contradict established rules are okay, and this one hasn't contradicted any. What it has done is called into question established existence - how can Erfworld function at all when abilities like this exist? But presumably there is an answer, and the author will let us know within the next couple strips.

In other words, all I really care about is a compelling reason why Jillian can't do the Time Warp again.
fractal
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:46 pm

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby JustDoug » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:12 pm

Oberon wrote:
ftl wrote:However, the time warp has some major disadvantages too.

1) It requires the caster to be in the same hex as the attackers. (Otherwise the caster can't cast on the enemy turn!) This puts a big army in the same hex as the caster... which means, UNLESS it's in a city (where the caster can cast from a different zone), the effect isn't useful - yeah, attackers will end turn, but then that force that's in the hex already will kill the turnamancer. Oops. Remember, fighting still happens out-of-turn - units just can't cross hex boundaries. Units don't freeze.
We don't really know this to be the case. The authors have played very loose since the originally stated "Can't cast on the enemies turn" restriction was revealed, and then violated many times. The actual mechanics of casting are about as clear as mud. Charlie, for example, can obviously cast multiple thinkagrams on the turns of other sides, without any fighting going on. Explained as a fair case of a broken rule due to his Arkendish? Fine, but that just makes any argument that Charlie can't end someone's turn at any point invalid by the same explanation.


Just this part, as I'm on break.

Could you reference where in the tale that, "Can't cast on the enemies turn" was revealed? I can't find it.

Anyway... From what I can gather, combat related casting is restricted to within the caster's hex, it being combat after all, with others being able to be cast at will. Thinkamancy, f'r'instance, seems to be 7-24 and long distance with only the caster's juice being the limiting factor. I think you're confusing the "Not on someone else's turn" rule with initiating combat by crossing into the defender's hex or otherwise moving units into the battlespace.

This isn't the gamebreaker- or even bad writing- you've made it out to be. It's a plan-breaker, though. Wanda has been caught out mid-plan with her dragons hanging and things have gone hectic, but GK forces are not somehow frozen, helpless and unable to fight and subject to slaughter. They've lost manuever and initiative, not defensive capabilities. The difference is now that they have to fight in place and the RC has reinforcements on the way. There's no more "swoop in on the tower and Win" now because of that.

There are a few Turn based games where you get events much like this. You'll be moving units and performing combat, adjusting your plans to fit results, and suddenly, Bang: your turn is over. Usually, it's when meeting some uber "Boss," stumbling over some event/place or some plot-driven game event scheduled by the game's designer. You're usually left with your pants down and many units scattered out of position. You have to scramble to recover, but unless you're left really scattered and are already weak, you can recover. It just takes a while and usually costs you a lot more resources than you expected- and you may just have to run for it if you can. GK is in that position.
JustDoug
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:36 am

Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby DoctorJest » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:16 pm

durandal wrote:
People keep brining up the point you must be engaged to cast so it probably is mentioned somewhere. However, we never seen a character actually limited by it. No caster has ever said "we need them to attack us first" or "sure, I'll do it first thing next dawn". Thinkagrams are also flying all over the place from charlie and bunny as well as maggie. So if the rule does exist it may be loose enough to not matter. I.e. any unit in your side must be engaged, or as soon as the first enemy touches your hex boundary, if you "think" you are under attack(veiled units possibly in the hex)..


In Text Update 13, we learn that thinkagrams cost casters "juice" and that Maggie needed to preserve some of her "Juice" for even after their turn, so that she could use her Thinkamancy on other sides' turns, which does indeed seem to suggest that the actual caster does not need to be directly engaged to cast on someone else's turn.
DoctorJest
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Reactions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests