Book 2 – Page 21

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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby sheepfly » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:02 am

Wanda's going to know immediately, thanks to the KingWorld display, that Jillian was merely pretending to accept the conditions of further negotiation. Wanda will also realize, with an Erfworlder's intuition and familiarity with taking turns, that her turn is over.

But this hardly changes anything. Opposing forces are still in the Jetstone hex, and we're not likely to see a repeat of the lake-hex 'wait for the slash-happy madwoman to move on' incident.

The RCC2 can start pulling its ground forces into the city. Yes, there will be a bunch more archers and maybe some air support in the mix. Jillian's forces will engage Wanda's, some red shirts will die, and there will be much sound and fury between the two leading ladies. But if Wanda still hits the tower as soon as possible with everything she can--and there's no guarantee that she will--she can croak Slately and make the bridge hex forces disband. (Hey, maybe Tramennis could make it into the city just in time for dear old dad to bite it, saving us the trouble of mourning T's loss after a scant few pages of character development.)

Of course, we don't know if Wanda will stick to the plan. She's not one for picking safe tactics or easy victories (despite what she might think to the contrary). Even parleying in the first place was, arguably, an unwise choice on her part. So she might hit the tower with everything, she might not. We'll just have to see how it plays out.

Personally, I'm satisfied that this new power demonstrated by one of Queen Bea's former 'mancers--and Charlie's willingness to devise a smart defense against Gobwin Knob's war of aggression--constitutes enough of an obstacle to Wanda's/Stanley's dominance that it could be considered a "turning point" in the war even without The Battle for Jetstone turning into yet another slaughter of helpless dwagons.
What would YOU say if you'd won with strength and duty and honor every time when suddenly a veiled flying zero-upkeep 100% recycled army of former friends showed up to croak you with massive numbers and bonuses and skulls with little pink flowers?

Yeah..
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby joosy » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:19 am

sheepfly wrote: But if Wanda still hits the tower as soon as possible with everything she can--and there's no guarantee that she will--she can croak Slately and make the bridge hex forces disband.


She can't hit the Tower. She is stuck in Spacerock's airspace and cannot cross zones even to counter attack until GK's next turn. However, for defending units they can cross all of the zones of a city freely even when its not their turn.

Just like the Archons in chapter 1 were stuck in GK's airspace and could only attack enemy units in the same airspace. Even after Charlie had signed back up with the RCC they were limited in their assistance.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Lord Kasavin » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:21 am

sheepfly wrote:But this hardly changes anything. Opposing forces are still in the Jetstone hex, and we're not likely to see a repeat of the lake-hex 'wait for the slash-happy madwoman to move on' incident.


That depends on whether Wanda can even attack the tower now. Moving between zones off turn is impossible. Maybe attacking across zones isn't. If Wanda can no longer attack the tower, than her and Parson's plan is booped and all the initiative goes to RCC2. Jetstone can withdraw to Spacerock and reinforce the garrison to make it unassailable while the infantry can't attack the walls without siege. Or, Traem can attack Ansom's hex outright and kill off some forces with the benefit of healers and no Wanda to decrypt... than retreat to reinforce Spacerock. If Wanda can no longer "checkmate" Slately, than Jillian can attack her Dwagons on more equitable footing, if she wants. Win or loose, Jetstone's security would be insured for at least a turn. Who knows what Haggar would do. Like I said, though, this all depends on whether or not the tower is vulnerable to attack.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby josh » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:16 am

Wow. This post clearly has a lot of people worked up. Well, here's my two cents:

First of all, I liked this post! It featured an excited and unexpected event, and yet in retrospect was foreshadowed slightly. It leaves the reader wondering what will happen next. It shows that unpredictable things can happen in Erfworld, and that's good, it keeps things tense.

Secondly, I don't know where people get their sense of self-entitlement, to comment on what the authors have the "right" to do with their own material. I mean yes, if they somehow posted something so morally reprehensible that it made the reader gag, fine, go ahead and complain. For that matter, saying "personally, this didn't tickle my fancy, I think xyz would have been better", ok. But "I didn't like the plot twist they used, so it is *wrong*!"? Hey, this is a free medium. If you don't like it, don't complain, just move on and let everyone else enjoy it. Nobody ripped you off of the price of admission. :)

All that said, I think people are freaking prematurely, considering there is so much we don't know about Erfworld, turnamancy, etc. Sure, if a single caster could on any given turn, end any other side's turn, yes, that would be broken. So, given what we've seen of Erfworld's excellent writing so far, I think it's safe to say that it doesn't work that way. (and even if it does - WE DON'T KNOW THAT TO BE SO YET. So relax, and at least wait to see if there is anything to complain ABOUT.)

Realistically though, in the context of what we've seen, there's no reason to thing this type of thing is easily repeatable. Consider the spell that brought Parson himself to Erfworld - clearly a very powerful spell, but you notice that Wanda's not spamming it each turn to bring new warlords. It's never explicitly stated, but I think we can safely assume it was a one-use spell. What's to say that this isn't the same? (It's entirely possible that somebody just bankrupted their treasury just to pay for this single spell casting.) Similarly, we've seen hints of various other limitations - the caster is specifically in the tower because it gives her huge bonuses, she's linked, etc etc. (Other people have made lots of comments on this front, so I won't bother repeating them.) The point being, there are lots of reasons to think this is *not* an easily repeatable trick, and no particular reason to think that it is. So why the fuss?

So let's just lean back and enjoy the ride, hey? :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Morgaln » Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:52 pm

I registered finally to say this:

joosy wrote:
sheepfly wrote: But if Wanda still hits the tower as soon as possible with everything she can--and there's no guarantee that she will--she can croak Slately and make the bridge hex forces disband.


She can't hit the Tower. She is stuck in Spacerock's airspace and cannot cross zones even to counter attack until GK's next turn. However, for defending units they can cross all of the zones of a city freely even when its not their turn.

Just like the Archons in chapter 1 were stuck in GK's airspace and could only attack enemy units in the same airspace. Even after Charlie had signed back up with the RCC they were limited in their assistance.


That's what I never understood about that plan; can't the king just retreat to the Dungeons or Garrison while the dragons attack the tower? He would be safe from the attack even if the tower falls, then. We already know rulers are able to move to other zones and even spaces ever since Stanley left GK.

josh wrote:Wow. This post clearly has a lot of people worked up. Well, here's my two cents:

First of all, I liked this post! It featured an excited and unexpected event, and yet in retrospect was foreshadowed slightly. It leaves the reader wondering what will happen next. It shows that unpredictable things can happen in Erfworld, and that's good, it keeps things tense.

Secondly, I don't know where people get their sense of self-entitlement, to comment on what the authors have the "right" to do with their own material. I mean yes, if they somehow posted something so morally reprehensible that it made the reader gag, fine, go ahead and complain. For that matter, saying "personally, this didn't tickle my fancy, I think xyz would have been better", ok. But "I didn't like the plot twist they used, so it is *wrong*!"? Hey, this is a free medium. If you don't like it, don't complain, just move on and let everyone else enjoy it. Nobody ripped you off of the price of admission. :)

All that said, I think people are freaking prematurely, considering there is so much we don't know about Erfworld, turnamancy, etc. Sure, if a single caster could on any given turn, end any other side's turn, yes, that would be broken. So, given what we've seen of Erfworld's excellent writing so far, I think it's safe to say that it doesn't work that way. (and even if it does - WE DON'T KNOW THAT TO BE SO YET. So relax, and at least wait to see if there is anything to complain ABOUT.)

Realistically though, in the context of what we've seen, there's no reason to thing this type of thing is easily repeatable. Consider the spell that brought Parson himself to Erfworld - clearly a very powerful spell, but you notice that Wanda's not spamming it each turn to bring new warlords. It's never explicitly stated, but I think we can safely assume it was a one-use spell. What's to say that this isn't the same? (It's entirely possible that somebody just bankrupted their treasury just to pay for this single spell casting.) Similarly, we've seen hints of various other limitations - the caster is specifically in the tower because it gives her huge bonuses, she's linked, etc etc. (Other people have made lots of comments on this front, so I won't bother repeating them.) The point being, there are lots of reasons to think this is *not* an easily repeatable trick, and no particular reason to think that it is. So why the fuss?

So let's just lean back and enjoy the ride, hey? :)


I think the spell that summoned Parson came from a scroll, which explains why it is not repeatable.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:10 am

Ditto wrote:Finally jumping in from the GITP boards...

'No casting on another's turn' I think is pretty straightforward, based upon the Thinkagrams etc. that float around in direct contravention of a strict reading of that rule. You cannot cast in a way that substantively alters other units. The links atteSmythe provided spell this out well. Jack could have veiled *himself* while in a stack of dragons when Jillian arrived in that panel, but not floated illusory duplicates or hidden dragons as trees. A Shockmancer could not have fired a bolt at Jillian, but could perhaps have cast a spell on himself to the tune of 'If anyone touches me, blast with a stun discharge'. Healomancer, surrounded himself with a 'Healing aura for myself or anyone who touches me'.


That is largely how I saw it as well. It wouldn't be much of a turn based situation if casters were still free to do their thing unhindered even if it wasn't there turn. However if an enemy attacks that allows the caster to retaliate with the spells at their disposal.

And with thinkamancers I think their communication magics are likely allowed since they are can't really be used against the enemy offensively, and might even be necessary to speak to the enemy (say to surrender, work out terms etc). A bit like magic hats.

The Turnamancy trick here obviously has some major mitigating factors going on here. It does seem consistent with the outlined speculation on the wiki.


Indeed, that is some good speculation there, and much of it sounds quite reasonable.

I expect Parson & co. will begin to piece together the conditions necessary to accomplish this gimmick over the next few turns, and they might even be in line with my chain of reasoning here.


I wonder if Parson will run a calc to see whether it is likely Charlie has a hand in this. :D

But I certainly wouldn't expect a trick like this to work regularly - or even have been seen before - because it would necessitate having an enemy King proximate to an enemy Turnamancer on the King's turn while in the Turnamancer's hex/city. As Slately said, Jillian's conduct is quite unseemly - side leaders *rarely* leave their capitals due to the extreme risk their vulnerability levies on their side.


Indeed.

dan2178 wrote:If Charlie (or his casters) are responsible for the link, why does Vanna reference the action as "KingWorld". Of course, King World productions used to produce Wheel of Fortune but there's also the probablity of it being associated with Don King.


Maybe Don King is involved somehow (was he really unaware of Charlie and Jillian working together?), though one wonders how. I'm not sure what casters he has that would be useful... other then Bunny the only one we know of is the theorized Mathamancer/Moneymancer.

multilis wrote:The problem is losing peoples credibility, what is point of cleverness if you win by with crazy super powers? Eg Superman Movie, he goes back in time to save the day when he couldn't stop both missiles.


Eh, has the day been won by crazy super powers? This changes things up, sure, but from the looks of things the real leg work is still to be done. The decrypted force is still unharmed, they still have to be beaten.

In this case, it seems pretty hard to defeat a ruler who can end your turn when you try to attack him. What limits are there to this power?


True, if any ruler can just do it whenever. Which we don't know is possible.

Mancers here are *hired* rather than owned, so it sounds like anyone can hire 3 from magic kingdom for a turn, pop them through portal and give random big surprise to whoever is attacking their capital.


Well, lets look at it - Charlie is almost certainly involved, which automatically makes this kind of event something most sides will never be able to pull off. His dish might be making this style of link up possible.

Casters are expensive, and link ups are dangerous. Unless you are also paying for additional thinkamancers to safely break the link when it is over then I doubt there are enough required casters of this type in the MK who'd be willing to risk their lives on a regular basis. Unless the MK is willing to untangle the mess after each usage, and I don't think they would be, since it would make them seem less then neutral - Janis getting help for Wanda/Maggie/Sizemore is a special case.

Vanna is different though. She might well be willing to risk her life to get back at the side that drove Unaroyal to destruction.

Plus I doubt the MK would be willing to let itself be used as a launching site for link up super weapons. They'd probably insist the hired casters be away for at least one turn.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:40 am

BLANDCorporatio wrote:The volcano incident was set up as a last-last-last ditch attempt, and it was clear from the get-go that it is something that can only be tried sparingly. That should never be tried at all.

This new thing will need some explaining for why it can't be repeated at will anytime.

So no, not enough cost, or set-up.


I still don't think, magnitude wise, they are comparable.

Parson's situation sure him sitting upon a big old MAD bomb (since rocks did indeed fall and nearly everyone died) and backed into a corner where his only duty compelled option was to use it. When used in that situation it slammed the book shut on the RCCI's war against GK and opened the one on GK's war against the entire world.

This seems more in the vicinity of the mathamancers and luckamancers - predict the crucial battles and then tilt them in your favour. This act will affect the outcome of a single battle, and thus influence the flow of the wider war somewhat. A very important battle, but just one of many still to be fought no matter who wins. The RCCII wins and they still have to capitalize and take the fight back to GK, no matter how badly GK is defeated here. And even if GK won here the rest of the world is still out there.

And even assuming worst case scenarios occur and GK manages to loose Jack, Ansom and Wanda, plus all the dwagons... well GK will still be in better shape then the RCCI/Jetstone was after the Volcano's uncroaking.

Besides which I still imagine this isn't the kind of spell that can be pulled off by every side easily.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Oberon » Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:36 am

Welf, I've got to respecfully disagree with just about everything you said below. I'll give specifics.
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Charley is not a caster (presumably). He is attuned to an arkentool and using its abilities. So he does not cast and is not bound to the normal rules for casters.
In the first case, we do not know that Charlie isn't a caster. But we do have another caster, Wanda, as the attuned owner of an Arkentool. So I'm seeing no reason Charlie can't be a caster also. There is nothing except his position as Overlord which differentiates Charlie from Wanda. In the second case, I'd have to ask why do you feel this maters? If Charley isn't a caster, but still has "an unmatched command of thinkamancy", is there a functional difference? If so, I'm not seeing it. If his unmatched command of thinkamancy allows him to cast unlimited thinkagrams per turn, why do you find this to not count as casting?
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:The rule that casters can't cast out of turn has so far been only violated by thinkamancers, when they contact units, relay orders or ask for status.
This is simply not even close to being correct. Firstly, Vanna the turnamancer just cast Time Warp while it was not her turn. Remember that? :) The volcano was uncroaked out of turn also. Several casters have been seen casting defensive magics out of turn, not just thinkagrams. It happens all the time, I'm surprised anyone holds to the supposed restriction anymore. It just isn't correct, even as retro-actively justified by the author, and it would take a half page of exceptions and mitigating circumstances to allow the amount of casting out of turn that we have seen.
Welf von Ehrwald wrote:And while the spell used is extremely powerful and changed the game, it's not gamebreaking. The spell can only buy time and only if the enemy makes a mistake. Without additional reinforcements from the whole gambit would have been less useful. It's also a sheer defensive tactic and can only be used on another turn, and only if the enemy attacks the hex with the caster.
I've given counter arguments previously to why it is indeed game breaking. And I see no reason why anyone would think that it is a purely defensive tactic. Vanna cast the spell on an entire side, no matter where they were, how far they were from her, and what activities they were engaged in. I see no reason to invent limitations such as "the enemy must attack the hex with the caster." There was no fighting going on, remember? It was a parley.

On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Oberon » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:05 am

MarbitChow wrote:And can we PLEASE stop referring to "Deus Ex Machina" in a world with MAGIC?
By definition, anything is possible in a world where magic exists.
Do you read much fantasy? There are a huge number of authors of fantasy settings who have very well defined rules for the magic systems in those settings. Once those rules are known, then the author can make an interesting story out of a character who has magic powers but can not, for example, simply snap their fingers to have any conceivable desire take place. So no, it is not even close to accurate to say that anything is possible in a world where magic exists. That claim is refuted by a great many good authors.

Take LE Modesitt, Jr. and his Recluse novels as but a single example. He has split casters into two types: Chaos and Order. Chaos, as the name suggests, deals primarily with destructive forces. Most chaos mages can not heal a wound, for example, but can hurl balls of fire around. Order mages, on the other hand, can heal wounds, but they also physically feel any death that they cause. Kill enough and they go blind, or fall unconscious, or die. And all mages spend a portion of their own energy when casting. A few spells and they are hungry. A few more and they are weak from the stress. A few more and they can fall unconscious, or die.

This seemingly simple set of rules has been used in 15 novels to date. Many where the characters use their capabilities in inventive ways to overcome adversity. Practitioners of magic are all main characters in these books, and the use of magic is a huge factor on the plot of the novels.

Tolkein, in contrast, didn't explain his magic at all. Nowhere in LotR is any kind of limitation or restriction on casting detailed. And so to keep Gandalf from being a walking deus ex machina Tolkien just kept his powers simple and not a terribly impacting effect on the plot.

The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.

This tends to lead, demonstrably I think anyone reading even just this reaction page must agree, to the confusion of the reader and a failure by the author to suspend the disbelief of the reader. What the reader is being asked to accept is that since nothing (very, very little) is known about the limits of magic that it's cool for magic to do anything at all and that this makes it plausible. And that could not be further from the truth.
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Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Mose » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:34 am

Oberon wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:And can we PLEASE stop referring to "Deus Ex Machina" in a world with MAGIC?
By definition, anything is possible in a world where magic exists.
Do you read much fantasy? There are a huge number of authors of fantasy settings who have very well defined rules for the magic systems in those settings. Once those rules are known, then the author can make an interesting story out of a character who has magic powers but can not, for example, simply snap their fingers to have any conceivable desire take place. So no, it is not even close to accurate to say that anything is possible in a world where magic exists. That claim is refuted by a great many good authors.

Take LE Modesitt, Jr. and his Recluse novels as but a single example. He has split casters into two types: Chaos and Order. Chaos, as the name suggests, deals primarily with destructive forces. Most chaos mages can not heal a wound, for example, but can hurl balls of fire around. Order mages, on the other hand, can heal wounds, but they also physically feel any death that they cause. Kill enough and they go blind, or fall unconscious, or die. And all mages spend a portion of their own energy when casting. A few spells and they are hungry. A few more and they are weak from the stress. A few more and they can fall unconscious, or die.

This seemingly simple set of rules has been used in 15 novels to date. Many where the characters use their capabilities in inventive ways to overcome adversity. Practitioners of magic are all main characters in these books, and the use of magic is a huge factor on the plot of the novels.

Tolkein, in contrast, didn't explain his magic at all. Nowhere in LotR is any kind of limitation or restriction on casting detailed. And so to keep Gandalf from being a walking deus ex machina Tolkien just kept his powers simple and not a terribly impacting effect on the plot.

The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.

This tends to lead, demonstrably I think anyone reading even just this reaction page must agree, to the confusion of the reader and a failure by the author to suspend the disbelief of the reader. What the reader is being asked to accept is that since nothing (very, very little) is known about the limits of magic that it's cool for magic to do anything at all and that this makes it plausible. And that could not be further from the truth.


Using the example above, the author of Erfworld has yet to finish this novel. I don't believe it all to be a secret, it is just we are in Chapter Two of a much longer trip. We don't know all the rules because we are still early in the game, especially dealing with magic.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dr Pepper » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:01 am

Oberon wrote:On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


Um, no. Jack was shown being healed and later shown with the fliers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:14 am

Oberon wrote:This is simply not even close to being correct. Firstly, Vanna the turnamancer just cast Time Warp while it was not her turn. Remember that? :) The volcano was uncroaked out of turn also. Several casters have been seen casting defensive magics out of turn, not just thinkagrams. It happens all the time, I'm surprised anyone holds to the supposed restriction anymore. It just isn't correct, even as retro-actively justified by the author, and it would take a half page of exceptions and mitigating circumstances to allow the amount of casting out of turn that we have seen.


Although in most of these cases isn't it seen as allowed since there was enemy action in the same hex? Just like all those Jetstone archers firing on the GK forces even though it isn't their turn.

I've given counter arguments previously to why it is indeed game breaking. And I see no reason why anyone would think that it is a purely defensive tactic. Vanna cast the spell on an entire side, no matter where they were, how far they were from her, and what activities they were engaged in. I see no reason to invent limitations such as "the enemy must attack the hex with the caster." There was no fighting going on, remember? It was a parley.


Enemy units were in the hex and the parley was over. Jillian told Wanda she'd go and stay out of the fight, she just needed to talk to her caster first. Wanda said ok, go talk to your caster and then stay out of the fight. Parley completed.

Well, unless Jillian was meant to go back to Wanda and tell her she had spoken to her caster and was now staying out of the fight. Of course nothing seems to suggest parleys protect either side against shenanigans from the other - Jillian got Duncan by making him think she was coming down to parlay with him, with the giants then switching to a side whose turn it was from a side whose turn it wasn't.

On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


No, Jack is fine for the time being. Wanda wanted to let him die and Stanley shut her down, he got healed and he is on a purple dwagon as we speak.

The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.


I agree a magical setting can have DEM. I don't think this is an example of a DEM. A caster type known to be able to effect turns effects a turn on a scale likely only achievable through a link up?

Link ups which enable the component casters to access spells relevant to their field but of far greater power/reach then normal (or even to almost merge two disciplines temporarily) which have also been revealed from early on?

And I don't think the magic rules are being kept a secret, just shown to us bit by bit as they are naturally displayed in the story, rather then via a massive info dump outlining what magic can and can't do. Is there any reason for us to have known what a turnamancer could do in a link up before one actually occurs in the story? Considering as well link ups aren't the most common things it should also be unexpected to the characters in the story, maybe. Would a warlord, or even ruler, necessarily know what a dirt/thought/croak link up could be used for off the top of their head, since they don't appear all that common?

And considering the number of magical disciplines, levels and possible link up combinations that is a lot of rules. Unless you mean universal rules, like magic runs on juice and when spells can/can't be cast. But again I'm not sure how that would relate to this spell, unless one of them was there is no magical way of affecting a sides turn.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby splintermute » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:58 am

To end all this confusion:

You cannot cast outside of your side's turn, with two exceptions:
1) You can cast if there are enemy units in your hex. The enemy units need not be engaged in combat, they just have to be in your hex.
2) Communications (e.g. thinkagrams, hat magic messages) can be cast at any time.

Every instance of casting in the comic so far has obeyed this rule.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Goshen » Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:05 pm

josh wrote:Wow. This post clearly has a lot of people worked up. Well, here's my two cents:

First of all, I liked this post! It featured an excited and unexpected event, and yet in retrospect was foreshadowed slightly. It leaves the reader wondering what will happen next. It shows that unpredictable things can happen in Erfworld, and that's good, it keeps things tense...So let's just lean back and enjoy the ride, hey? :)


I second what Josh said. Just because this is a big and unexpected event doesn't make it wrong--the whole point was to shock and turn the tables a bit, leaving us wondering what happens next. Obviously, the world's rules have to be consistent or it becomes hard to suspend disbelief, but I don't think the sudden turn ending does that. It clearly took all the turnamancer's power, we have no idea what Charlie had to put into it. Anyway, there are lots of games with very dramatic events like that, some balanced, some not. More importantly, Erfworld is not a game. It's not even a game-like world! Its a story.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Black » Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:09 pm

It's less of a shocker when you read the book from page 1, as the pacing then is what it would be if you were reading this thing as a whole instead of serialized like this.

When you're waiting and speculating and theorizing for a month before the event actually happens, of course you reaction is going to be different.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby gameboy1234 » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:00 pm

sheepfly wrote:But this hardly changes anything. Opposing forces are still in the Jetstone hex, and we're not likely to see a repeat of the lake-hex 'wait for the slash-happy madwoman to move on' incident.


I think it might. Wanda is now basically bent over a barrel, but Jillian also doesn't want to see anything untoward happen to her. My prediction: Jillian will now again offer allow Wanda to turn to Faq after revealing that she is working with Charlie. The alternative will be that Wanda's fate ends on Jetstone's turn, as both Jetstone and Charlie will be eager to croak her.

If Wanda does take the offer, it'll result in a three way battle: GK vs. Jetstone vs. Charlie/Faq. Yeah, that'll be a real battlefield then. However, I expect the foreshadowing we've seen indicates that Wanda will fight and Parson will pull her boop out of the fire. I think my idea makes a bit more sense, though.
"Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome?

I did it thirty-five minutes ago.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby josh » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:24 am

Oberon wrote:The author of Erfworld, however, has chosen to keep most of the rules of magic his own secret, while also showing them to be very potent. And this does not allow for the readers to accept a great many things that the casters do as being natural and expected consequences of either the way that the laws of magic have been explained, or of the natural limitations revealed by the way the characters use their magic. Instead we have the worst combination: Potent magic which are hugely plot impacting but also almost entirely unexplained. Or worse yet, explained poorly or inaccurately or incompletely.

This tends to lead, demonstrably I think anyone reading even just this reaction page must agree, to the confusion of the reader and a failure by the author to suspend the disbelief of the reader. What the reader is being asked to accept is that since nothing (very, very little) is known about the limits of magic that it's cool for magic to do anything at all and that this makes it plausible. And that could not be further from the truth.


Must agree? I disagree! :D I don't feel the least bit confused, and haven't the least bit difficultly suspending my disbelief. I must have a special handicap. ;)

I get what you're saying actually, I just don't agree that this is necessarily the case. If you were to say "it is my preference to have a system (or story) where magic either follows well explained rules or is only window dressing", then I can accept that. I *do* think stories with well-explained magic systems are interesting. I *also* think that stories with no such explanations can be just as interesting, for different reasons. By your logic, we'd better toss aside most Brothers Grimm tales as being implausible trash. Same goes for... well pretty much most fantasy stories that predate the last 50 years or so.

Some fantasy stories are based on a clearly-defined magic system, and are enjoyable because we can predict what will happen next. As such, they become "mysteries" for us to solve. They satisfy the viewer by making him feel happy about their success at correctly guessing what will happen, and by engaging the reader in such mental guesswork, involving them in the action.
Other fantasy stories provide no explanations at all for their magic. They're enjoyable because of the (excuse the term) "magical" element of feeling that anything is possible, and *because* they are less predictable. The audience in this case isn't able to predict things to come as easily (if at all), but the payoff comes in the wonder of seeing things that ARE new and unpredictable.

Most fantasies are a mix of both techniques. Some people prefer one style, others prefer the other. Some (like myself) enjoy both. A style isn't RIGHT because it suits our taste, it simply is one that appeals to us. (That said, I understand - the normal human reaction to anything is to assume that everyone else is like us, and thus if we like or dislike a thing, everyone else must be doing the same.)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:55 am

Alexei P wrote:
MonteCristo wrote:I think one tip off that this is not a normal Turnamancer trick would be Parson's calculation.
He was giving wanda a range on her chances of victory, a range which was largely dependent on the unknown caster... meaning his bracer likely would have taken into the possibility of a masterclass turnamancer...


Ah, but the bracer never actually predicted 100% odds. Seventy to ninety percent doesn't mean no chance of defeat. The idea that they'd destroy the tower and be back before breakfast was all Wanda's personal assumption.

@MarbitChow: very true indeed.


Indeed. And I also don't think Parson's calc would have taken into account Wanda parleying first rather then going straight for the tower, nor her giving a caster the time to cast a big spell.

Dr Pepper wrote:My prediction: Wanda has an extra trick of her own in reserve. It won't counteract the effect of the End Turn spell, but it will greatly reduce the advantage the RCC just gained.


Maybe. I guess she does have Jack there (and Sylvia)... maybe we will see some new ability from the pliers.

Of course I don't think it should pull back to much momentum from Jetstone this turn at least. Wanda shouldn't have been prepared for something like this, Charlie and Jillian got one over them this time.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby atteSmythe » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:25 pm

MonteCristo wrote:I think one tip off that this is not a normal Turnamancer trick would be Parson's calculation.
He was giving wanda a range on her chances of victory, a range which was largely dependent on the unknown caster... meaning his bracer likely would have taken into the possibility of a masterclass turnamancer...

However, what the bracer would not consider is something like a long range link up by the arkendish to augment the turnamancer's power... Unfortunately for Wanda, Parson did not take charlie (or any other unknown elements) into account when he calculated Wanda's chances of victory

While I agree that something like the Linkup wouldn't/couldn't be in Parson's calculation (the caster wasn't, before he knew there was one), I also don't think that the bracer's calculation has anything to do with the current situation. He asked about rushing the tower and razing it. Instead, Wanda stopped in the airspace to parley.

She should've asked what the odds were that Jillian would turn. But she didn't want to know.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 21

Postby Godsire » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 am

Oberon wrote:On a different subject, it just occurred to me that Jack just died. When Wanda was injured to the point of incapacitation, it was said that without healing magic before the Jetstone turn (the active turn in which she was injured) ended that she would die. Jack was similarly injured to the point of incapacitation, and he wasn't healed, or he'd be with the fliers now. And the GK turn just ended. So Jack is dead. RIP Jack.


Jack was healed. He was with the fliers. Take a better look at the panels. He is there, and healed. He is functional.
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