Book 2 – Page 20

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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby oslecamo2 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:37 am

Dr Pepper wrote:Ah but Wanda hasn't actually commited to do anything more than "negotiate".


Indeed. Like I already said, Wanda just wants to get Jillian out of the way whitout needing to kill her. If the price to get the barbarian queen out of the way is a little after-battle chit-chat, then it's a pretty good price!

Rolan7:
Charlie's turn comes before GK. If Charlie was preparing some kind of ambush, he would've already springed it. And like you yourself pointed out, Hamster is da warlord who defeated an enemy against overwhelming crushing odds. And Charlie still doesn't know how Hamster did it. For all he knows, even sending his whole archon fleet may result in just another huge barbecue. Charlie will not send his forces into unkown conditions.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Oberon » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:44 am

Decorus wrote:Charlescomm is not out of customers. Charlescomm just has no customers in this section of Erfworld which while it concerns him it is not leaving him without a source of cash.
While true in general, we do not know how much more of Erf there really is, or if Charlie has a handy source of customers elsewhere. Good plot says that he does not. If he is so far flung that he doesn't need to care about GK and the RCC sides and their interactions, then he could just stand back and let them work things out on their own and try to deal with the winner. Since he isn't doing this, we must assume that he has a larger stake in getting things to turn out in his favor than the loss of a few insignificant customers.

oslecamo2 wrote:And Charlie still doesn't know how Hamster did it [the GK volcano]. For all he knows, even sending his whole archon fleet may result in just another huge barbecue. Charlie will not send his forces into unkown conditions.
Au contraire. Charlie "guessed" the exact trimancer link that caused the volcano to uncroak.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby rughat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:06 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:About that, why ISN'T she saying directly that she's allied to Charlie? It would spare everyone (I mean Jillian and Wanda) grief by getting this over with quickly .... that is if it had a chance of working. If Charlie was a juicy enough incentive to get Wanda to turn, Jillian probably would have said so.

All this "trust me" business feels fishy, and for once it's not the tinfoil hat speaking as other posters here have had the same comment.

I suspect that Jillian knows that her offer is flawed. However, Jillian wants her offer to work. So, Julian is hoping that Wanda will buy in without knowing all the details.
BLANDCorporatio wrote:PS: so let's assume that Wanda turns "sight unseen". Jillian reveals the contents of the surprise- Charlie! Attuned wielder, everything's fine ... except that the whole issue of whether Charlie or Wanda would like to be allies pops up with even more relevance. And if Wanda could just turn to Faq on Jillian's request, why not immediately desert back to GK when the surprise offer happens to be underwhelming?


Frankly, this is what I think could happen. Jillian, through her actions (screwing over TV and Jetstone) convinces Wanda to trust her. Jillian tells her to turn, that turning won't hurt her cause. Wanda does, as an act of trust. Jillian then reveals the surprise!

This is where Jillian's thinking is stopping. Jillian has already shown that she tends to plan towards the result she wants - like Stanley she's very goal focused, and expects other people to follow along behind her and do what she wants so she can get her way. Jillian is saying in her head "I can have Wanda back by getting her allied with Charlie! Then I get Wanda and Ansom, no one can order me around (except for when it is fun), and I've got this massive army that I can take out and smash things with when I get bored! I Win!"

However, as a wise man once said, "people are a problem." Once the actual people get involved outside of Jillian's head, everything goes to hell. Charlie doesn't want to be allied with Wanda. Wanda still wants to do her holy crusade. Ansom doesn't play right anymore. The band falls apart spectacularly, and everyone is sitting around, looking at the shards, and wondering what the hell just happened. Chaos, confusion, and a hell of an interesting story, since even seeing the outline of it I couldn't guess how it would turn out.

Of course, since that's what I'm predicting, it won't happen.

Edit: fixed my odd desire to rename Jillian to Julian.
Last edited by rughat on Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Turtlewing » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:09 pm

I think Wanda turning to FAQ would fit just fine with Charly's agenda. The bigest problem Charly has with GK right now is that their "toolist" ideology draws a line in the sand and forces him to one side of it. Charly prefers to appear the quintecential mercenary (his loyalty can be bought only with cash), but because he's a non-royal attuned tool-wielder a sizable number of his potential clients woulnt deal wih him.

If Wanda turns to FAQ it means that royalty and toolism aren't mutually exclusive (that royalty in general isn't obsolete). This means royals will have no good reason not to hire Charly again (especially with Jetstone no longer around to throw fuel on the fire).


On another note, we know that Erf is bigger than just the sides we've been introduced to, but it could be say twice as big in which case GK dominating their local theartre would mean roughly half as much buisness for Charly. That could be enough to place him in real trouble even if there are still lots of sides with no knowledge of toolism.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby theseus2x » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:25 pm

Oberon wrote:
Decorus wrote:Charlescomm is not out of customers. Charlescomm just has no customers in this section of Erfworld which while it concerns him it is not leaving him without a source of cash.
While true in general, we do not know how much more of Erf there really is, or if Charlie has a handy source of customers elsewhere. Good plot says that he does not. If he is so far flung that he doesn't need to care about GK and the RCC sides and their interactions, then he could just stand back and let them work things out on their own and try to deal with the winner. Since he isn't doing this, we must assume that he has a larger stake in getting things to turn out in his favor than the loss of a few insignificant customers.

oslecamo2 wrote:And Charlie still doesn't know how Hamster did it [the GK volcano]. For all he knows, even sending his whole archon fleet may result in just another huge barbecue. Charlie will not send his forces into unkown conditions.
Au contraire. Charlie "guessed" the exact trimancer link that caused the volcano to uncroak.


This is all a good point. We simply have no idea how many other regions (didn't they say continents someplace?) there are, and what Charlie's reach there is like. Charlie has many reasons for getting involved :

1) He's not making any money off this.
2) The whole "War of the Arkentools" thing makes him nervous.
3) Wanda's Decrypted have a HUGE amount of power that can't be checked (at least not by ordinary means). Eventually, she could turn her attention to him, at the same time killing off all his customers.
4) Charlie LIKED the old status quo. He could sit back, make huge amounts of money, continue to expand his influence at a comfortable pace, and never really worry about someone going after him. This new world? Its scary.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:45 pm

Is it just me, or did another Megalogwiff appear?
Just before Jillian and Wanda flew up, when the Megalows were in a line across the dwagons, there were 8 megalogwiffs, including Jillian's. On this page (panel 3) there are 8 megalogwiffs below Jillian and Wanda; a total of 9.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby build6 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:35 pm

one word - wow. I did NOT see that coming. So Jillian really is ready to "blow it all for love" eh?

Hrm, so the "disarray" Janis predicted for GK is Wanda and Jillian hiving off into another nonaffiliated side? But then that doesn't actually leave an enemy for GK to fight either (I mean, Jetstone's still gone anyway, and (assuming no betrayals) Jillian isn't a threat, so who's GK getting disarrayed by?). And even if Wanda turns to FAQ, she won't want to fight Stanley, who is attuned.

Actually, then again - from the math I've read (heh :-P), it doesn't sound like even if Jillian went all out against 'em, they'd be able to stop GK (barring some kind of lucky shot that takes out Wanda). So maybe getting on Wanda's good side is the only way for Jillian to get close enough to Stanley to off him, or something like that? I really have no idea how this is gonna work :-P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby fractal » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:58 pm

Oberon wrote:
Decorus wrote:Charlescomm is not out of customers. Charlescomm just has no customers in this section of Erfworld which while it concerns him it is not leaving him without a source of cash.
While true in general, we do not know how much more of Erf there really is, or if Charlie has a handy source of customers elsewhere. Good plot says that he does not. If he is so far flung that he doesn't need to care about GK and the RCC sides and their interactions, then he could just stand back and let them work things out on their own and try to deal with the winner. Since he isn't doing this, we must assume that he has a larger stake in getting things to turn out in his favor than the loss of a few insignificant customers.

In book one, Charlie described this as "the Great Western Conflict". Although that could just mean that Stanley controlled the west, which everyone else was invading, I think it's reasonable to read that phrase as meaning that these are the western sides fighting it out. In other words, roughly one fourth of Charlie's potential customers. They could be in contact with Royal sides elsewhere, however, who might then be wary of hiring Charlie.
oslecamo2 wrote:And Charlie still doesn't know how Hamster did it [the GK volcano]. For all he knows, even sending his whole archon fleet may result in just another huge barbecue. Charlie will not send his forces into unkown conditions.
Au contraire. Charlie "guessed" the exact trimancer link that caused the volcano to uncroak.

True. That Trimancer link is no longer available on short notice. However, the volcano is also no longer in the same state that it was before; it has been uncroaked, and is active once more. There is now a lake of molten lava at the surface. Possibly Dirtamancy alone would suffice to use that lake as a form of defense.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby theseus2x » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:05 pm

build6 wrote:one word - wow. I did NOT see that coming. So Jillian really is ready to "blow it all for love" eh?


Something is going to go wrong.

Either Jillian's planning a backstab, or someone will do something stupid to make Wanda THINK she's planning a backstab.

Its bound to happen, IMHO.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby fractal » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:12 pm

theseus2x wrote:
build6 wrote:one word - wow. I did NOT see that coming. So Jillian really is ready to "blow it all for love" eh?

Something is going to go wrong.

Either Jillian's planning a backstab, or someone will do something stupid to make Wanda THINK she's planning a backstab.

Its bound to happen, IMHO.

But if Wanda thinks Jillian is planning a backstab, doesn't she go back to Plan A, and raze the tower? That might be upsetting to her and Jillian, but from Stanley and Parson's point of view, it's what they want and expect. That doesn't sound likely to cause the disarray predicted by Janice. So GK has to suffer some sort of loss; either the battle goes poorly (perhaps because of an actual backstab), or Wanda deserts.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Kizmet » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Speculation...
- Jillian is about to spring a trap and is getting out of the way.
- Charlie is about to launch a raid on GK.

Wilder Speculation...
- We know the hammer and pliers have secondary uses (pigeons/rocking out and smiting croaked for example)... but the main powers seem to be control over a certain broad unit type (dwagons and decrypted).
- The satellite dish actually controls all "natural allies" and not just archons... where Charlie lives the natural allies are the Archons (hence why other sides have archons too elsewhere in erfworld).
- I suspect a new tribe of Hobgobwins are going to launch an attack from inside/underneath GK as they are under the control of Charlie since the end of book 1.
- Vurp (ref: http://www.erfworld.com/page/19/ ) can lie. Vurp admits that Chief of Chiefs can change their tribes alliance.
- Natural Allies have to convert Schmuckers into units, promotions, or rations. They do not need any contact with the outside world so long as there is a steady supply of schmuckers. Charlie is hoarding cash to abuse this mechanic and it is why the archons have such a high "upkeep".
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby theseus2x » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:32 pm

fractal wrote:But if Wanda thinks Jillian is planning a backstab, doesn't she go back to Plan A, and raze the tower? That might be upsetting to her and Jillian, but from Stanley and Parson's point of view, it's what they want and expect. That doesn't sound likely to cause the disarray predicted by Janice. So GK has to suffer some sort of loss; either the battle goes poorly (perhaps because of an actual backstab), or Wanda deserts.


No, Wanda TRIES to raze the tower. Or ignores the tower in favor of going after Jillian.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Lord Kasavin » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:36 pm

Man, there are a ton of unknowns floating around and its leading to some pretty heavy speculations.

Wanda seems pretty straightforward. She, on a heartless villain streak, wants to test the limits of decryption. Which means seeing if a decrypted caster can still cast, and if a decrypted heir inherits a side when the ruler croaks. She also wants to spare Jillian, and get rid of the Royal Coalition which opposes the Tools' destiny. Thus, she wants Jillian to back down, and then go raze the city.

Jillian and Charlie... are less clear. I belief Jillian's "trust me" offer is an alliance with Charlie, thus keeping Arkentools aligned. This has problems, as others have mentioned. Of course, she also seems very inclined to get Wanda and the decrypted on her side. I'm starting to suspect Charlie is preparing a knock-out blow aimed at GK. Elsewhere, I've criticized this noting that GK is really well defended. Yet, if Charlie can get the decrypted to change sides, and using whatever thinkamancy he has at his disposal to flip the hobgobwins , then GK would be much weakened and a large assault of Archons and Jillian could prevail. Or, what Jillian thinks is an overwhelming assault is already in the works and she fears that if she doesn't get Wanda to flip than she'd disband when GK falls.

Regardless, I'm not liking JIllian or Wanda at this point.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Django » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:21 pm

Did Wanda give away too much when she told Jilian that she has to stay with Stanley because of the Arkentools?

Did she figure out in the bottom middle panel that Wanda betrayed FAQ?

Perhaps just wishful thinking...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby atteSmythe » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:27 pm

Interesting potential consequence: If Wanda turns, depending on her disposition towards Charlie, old Chucky could get the juicy details of Parson's origin. There's likely a lot he suspects, especially considering his good relations with the Magic Kingdom, but knowing is a different matter.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Just some random thought: If Jillian lets Wanda take the city, she is toast. Wanda can raze the city, destroy Jetstone and then claim the ruins. Jillian is now a defender and can change city zones without spending move. If jetstone becomes a GK city, she is trapped in the air zone until it is her move again. In the meantime, Ansom and the decrypted can move into the city and croak Jillians troops with ranged attacks. They should have enough archers and archons for that. If they feel creative, they can call Sizemore and construct a level 5 city with murderous air defences for additional bonus.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Lamech » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:38 pm

fractal wrote:True. That Trimancer link is no longer available on short notice. However, the volcano is also no longer in the same state that it was before; it has been uncroaked, and is active once more. There is now a lake of molten lava at the surface. Possibly Dirtamancy alone would suffice to use that lake as a form of defense.
While from our POV we know that it was a trimancer, and the volcano may or may not work with out Wanda Charlie does not. Mabye they managed to aquire another croakamancer, either by croaking one or making a deal with one in the magic kingdom. How many casters would take the chance at getting I don't know how much XP by croaking all those archons? Or maybe just a dirtamancy + thinkamancy link is enough to fire it again. Or even a lone Sizemore. Or maybe a dirtamancy+something+thinkamancy is enough to roast anything in the hex with out risk to GK's units now. Or maybe it wasn't the trimancer link that made the volcano but another random artifact that just happened to appear in GK like the super math bracer. Or maybe... the point is Charlie would be risking everything to launch an attack when for all he knows the attack will simply be handing GK a big pile of XP and units.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby djones520 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:06 pm

Ninjaguineapig wrote:Is it just me, or did another Megalogwiff appear?
Just before Jillian and Wanda flew up, when the Megalows were in a line across the dwagons, there were 8 megalogwiffs, including Jillian's. On this page (panel 3) there are 8 megalogwiffs below Jillian and Wanda; a total of 9.


Look at pg 16 panel 8. It shows atleast 2 more Megalogwiffs behind her line around the tower. That could explain the two that are now in formation behind the 8 in the original line.

That would giver her 10 Mega's, with an unknown number of Gwiffs, and what would appear to be Archons and Warlords riding them. A pretty fearsome force IMO.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby Hiai » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:15 pm

As regards a Charlie invasion of GK:
I've brought up this possibilty before in previous threads, responding to a "where are the veiled Archons?" question. Passing events have made this possibility a stronger one in my mind.

First, let's take turn order: Charlescomm's turn naturally goes before everyone else, including GK. GK is now on it's turn, having not been attacked by Charlescomm, so Charlescomm has already given up their chance at attack on their own turn. However, both the RCCII, which Faq is a part of right now, and Faq's natural turn both fall after GK's. Therefore, if Jillian can convince Wanda to end GK's turn before attacking her, she will still have a turn to do quite a bit in response; INCLUDING allying with Charlescomm, thus giving Charlescomm's forces a chance at attack no matter where they are...like possibly having spent their move on their turn getting into position around GK, then using the new, allied turn to attack. Jillian getting Wanda to turn would just be icing on the cake; all she really has to do is stand aside and let Wanda use her turn taking out Jetstone's tower, and then have Wanda end turn to parlay about the POSSIBLE turning to Faq. So long as Wanda does not obliterate Jillian's forces on GK's turn, Charlie and Jillian have carte blanche to attack GK.

Second, let's talk about GK's vulnerability:

Remember that Charlie has been frustrated in his attempts to gain much in the way of intel like he's used to having. His Archon scouts have been detected by the decrypted Archons, and GK's forces have obviously been on high alert, so let's think about what Charlie knows right now about GK. We're talking about Charlie's PERCEPTION of how vulnerable GK is, and thus the likelihood of him attacking, NOT GK's real strengths and weaknesses and whether or not any Charlescomm attack would be successful.

1. Charlie guessed, and had confirmed by Parson, that the volcano that blew the RCCI away was the result of a powerful trimancer link. Charlie can see very clearly that 2 of GK's most powerful casters are with Wanda's forces at Jetstone, and therefore such a link is no longer possible. He knows the capabilities and limitations of thinkamancy in extreme intimate detail, so his guesses about whether a two-caster linkup could now achieve the same effect, regardless of the state of the volcano right now, are very likely to be spot on. If he thinks that Sidemore and Maggie couldn't do it without a third, he's most likely quite correct.

2. Wanda has a very sizable force of dwagons with her. Before the last battle with the RCCI, Charlie would have had an exact count of how many dwagons Stanley possessed. Even given the time in between and the likelihood of Stanley popping more dwagons, it would be quite reasonable for Charlie to assume that Stanley has very few dwagons with him at this time. He has no way of knowing that Stanley has been taming wild dwagons, because he can't get anywhere near enough to get an accurate count, so it's extremely likely that he would vastly underestimate the size of GK's current airforce DEFENSE, after seeing the strength of Wanda's OFFENSIVE air force.

3. Charlie may not be able to get near GK, but it's likely he can at least scout some of Stanley's newly conquered citites, enough to see what sort of units are being popped, and in what numbers. We know that Stanley has Hobgobwins popping, and decrypted forces for defense in the meantime (which, by the way, would then turn on Stanley's forces if by chance Wanda DID turn to Faq; a nice if not entirely necessary bonus). But not dwagons. It would be quite reasonable for Charlie to assume that Stanley is busily popping dwagons at GK's capitol, and Hobgobwins in outlying areas. It makes good sense to do so, and given the assumption that Stanley is "low on dwagons" right now, that's what he SHOULD be doing.

4. Charlie has no way of knowing that GK's treasury is bursting with schmuckers due to Sidemore's gem find. It would be reasonable to assume that most of the treasury was depleted just by rebuilding the fortress itself, so imagining Stanley doing what he actually IS doing, speeding unit popping so that he builds his forces exponentially, is unlikely for any reasonable person to guess. Given the length of time it would normally take a super-heavy unit like a dwagon to pop, without the influx of extra schmuckers, it would seem as if Stanley can't have more than a very few dwagons left with him, since most are on location with Wanda. Same goes for Hobgobwins: if Stanley is popping dwagons, he HASN't been popping Hobgobwins.

So, logically, Stanley is sitting in GK nearly undefended, with a hugely depleted airforce, which is Charlie's strong point, two casters, neither of whom would normally be the "battle" type of caster, especially if you don't go near Sidemore's purview at ground level, few, if any, natural allies (no gobwins at ALL!!), and one brilliant but underutilized warlord that Charlie covets for his own. Throw the Arkenhammer in to sweeten the pot, and GK looks like a pretty tempting target for someone who KNEW a few turns ago that only 14 Archons would be enough to take the entire garrison. Throw in the fact that most of the Archons he had in this particular area of the world are sorta sitting around unemployed, and Jillian keeping Wanda's forces busy over at Jetstone (whether turning her or fighting her, Wanda is not coming to GK's rescue any time soon); GK looks like a ripe plum for Charlie's picking.

And that completely leaves out the very real possibility that Charlie is involved in some chicanery with the gobwins and the possible use of them to attack from below. All in all, from Charlie's knowledge, the only thing that would cause him to hesitate in the least is his new-found respect for Parson's military genius. But that is a two-edged sword, because as much as it might make him hesitate, it also tempts him, because he WANTS Parson for his side.

We look at GK and think how much stronger it was than before, and that it's only getting more and more impregnable, especially with Parson there. Charlie (and possibly Jillian) thinks of GK and thinks that now is the time, possibly the ONLY time, to attack. It's obvious that as time wears on, GK is only getting stronger. So that hint of desperation is also a driving force...even if GK is a tough nut to crack, it may be the one and only time it's at all vulnerable, and that's a gamble worth taking. I look forward to Charlie getting badly outclassed yet again by Parson, and coming away with far more than a bloody nose this time. And his resulting fury.
Last edited by Hiai on Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 20

Postby djones520 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:33 pm

That may be what Jillian was referring to with the "trust me" comment. GK is about to get hammered, and if Stanley eats it Wanda would just dissapear wouldn't she? Jillian can't tell Wanda that it's about to happen because then she'd warn GK about the impending attack, so she is willing to let her take Jetstone as a sign of good faith. Then they can negotiate in the rest of GK's turn, get Wanda and Jack to turn to FAQ, and let Charlescomm (and Transylvito maybe?) attack GK and sack it in the subsequent RCC2 turn.
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