Book 2 – Text Updates 009

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:39 am

fjolnir wrote:I use the term bowing and scraping, because it appears that's what Slately expects of non-royals, even mercenary leaders like charlie. I didn't mean it in the sycophantic way, but more "the boot is on my throat, kneel or die" way. He has to tread this fine line because he's not always on the position of advantage, especially at the start of business negotiations.

It's still a poor choice of words since Charlie does NOT seem to do anykind of "kneeling". In fact he's more than happy to screw over royals just like he would any other.

Slately has not been shown to have a "kneel or die" mentality. He needed proper reasons to form an RCC against Stanely. Had Stanely not gone off attacking other sides like he did, Slately would have probably just ignored him at best and sometimes try to take a city at worst (assuming jetstone is a GK neighbor). he wouldn't like him but He would not have started a campaign to wipe him out just because he was a non-royal...

that's pretty much how things are with charlie... charlie does not show much disrespect and has not done anything to actually warrant being attacked, and for that the royals tolerate him and even hire him from time to time. that is ofcourse until toolism kicked in which has changed the game some.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:59 am

MonteCristo wrote:When? All i see mentioned was him saying that Jetstone doesn't like Stanely because he is a non-royal, and a suspected account of regicide... this is a FAR cry from "Royals Destroying any side that didn't have a royal as a ruler"... We do have Parson who claims that Royals like to gang up on non-royals but this again does not necessarily mean they go wiping them out; frankly i see it more like how TV treats carpudians, bullying them from time to time... an all out war would take much resources and involve heavy looses; something you can't afford to easily when you have aggressive neighbors breathing down your back; i mean TV for instance has lost a great amount of strength preparing for this battle with GK...


Yes, I couldn't remember Vinnie out and out saying something like that, just that Jetstone's stake there has a lot to do with non-royal Stanley. And Ansom was uncomfortable with admitting it, which seems to suggest royals (or at least some of them) don't like the idea of having that public image.

So far I think we have three real referances to such behaviour - Vinnie talking about Jetstone in this particular conflict, and Parson's views shaped by Sizemore.

Personally I think that kind of attitude would be damaging to the royal mandate if true: "Oh we royals are superior, wait, what is that, a side ruled by a non-royal? Quick, we need five or more allies so we can crush them at once!" If non-royal rulers are so inferior it shouldn't take massive coalitions or multiple royals ganging up to deal with them. Stanley was special though thanks to his attitude, his tool and his dwagons. And his awesome lair.

If royals did hate non-royals so much that they would go out of their way to destroy those that came to power then they would refuse to hire Charlie much like they are doing right now with the advent of toolism... Ansom would have rather risked walking into a trap then call for help from a non-royal ruler like charlie
And charlie IS a side... one city and no warlords is indication of nothing... he just chooses not to have either


I agree.

Lord Kasavin wrote:Like I said, laundry list. Regicide, I think, is the most important reason for Jetstone to really, really hate Stanley. The rest of his behavior just made it easy to form a giant alliance against him. I think TV could have forgotten about regicide, but not the attacks.


I agree.

Vinny, at the very least, knows that a Lord Hamster Parson led the defense of GK even after Stanley bolted. So, his "existence" is probably common knowledge.


Also after Wanda and Jillian's dungeon session didn't we see Wanda telling her about the ultimate Warlord spell and presumably Parson? And Charlie certainly knows about him.

fjolnir wrote:I use the term bowing and scraping, because it appears that's what Slately expects of non-royals, even mercenary leaders like charlie. I didn't mean it in the sycophantic way, but more "the boot is on my throat, kneel or die" way. He has to tread this fine line because he's not always on the position of advantage, especially at the start of business negotiations.


Ah, I've got you. Although everyone knows what Charlie has to offer. He waits for people to come to him - like with the RCCI where he says something like "Looks like one of the sides in the Western Conflict has finally decided to meet our price". Just being so useful would stop him having to bow to deeply.

build6 wrote:he did "luck out" in having the battle happen at an uncroakable volcano.


Plus he was fortunate Jack saved Stanley from the ambush, and he was fortunate stepping into the magic kingdom didn't get him killed. It was a "rocks fall, everybody dies" finale after all.

OneHugeTuck wrote:Awesome. Sylvia's prowess keeps getting elevated. She's now up there with Ansom and Ossomer!


And if Wanda captures some more high level characters for Sylvia to stab she could soon be the one of the highest level characters of all time. Of All TIME.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:10 am

Dancing Cthulhu wrote:
build6 wrote:he did "luck out" in having the battle happen at an uncroakable volcano.


Plus he was fortunate Jack saved Stanley from the ambush, and he was fortunate stepping into the magic kingdom didn't get him killed. It was a "rocks fall, everybody dies" finale after all.


They croaked about half of the RCC units before the volcano, and if Stanley just stayed at GK with his dwagons, foolamancer and Arkenhammer, I don't think they would have needed to uncroak the volcano. GK would have wasted the RCC in the dancefight in the Courtyard if not for the Archons' foolamancy/leadership/dancefighting applied to the RCC troops. But if Stanley was in the Courtyard, giving the uncroaked his Overlord bonus, leading them in a Rock-Out and having his dwagons bring croaking to the Archons, the city would never have fallen in the first place.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:00 am

[quote="Dancing Cthulhu"With only Stanley as an example of that though. Charlie being an example of a non-royal who royals traditionally were prepared to work with. And still work with (Faq, royals outside the sphere of the RCCII/GK conflict probably).

And we know Stanley has already actually wiped out two sides, and apparently without making any sort of offer like that to them - Faq and Milquetoast. In fact so far GK is the only side we know of, with the actual deeds mentioned, that has wiped out entire sides (and also contributed to Unaroyal's selfend).

Though I imagine other sides must have been destroyed before... hmmm, TV and Carpool seem to have been scuffling for a long time, and if a number of those statues seen in this update were indeed former rulers, who hung around a while, then Jetstone must be old.[/quote]

Summer update 41, the one with Jillian and Charely, mentions a Lord Shelby the Cobra. Apparently he is an overlord, not a ing, or Jillian would have refered to him as king. And back in book 1 Sizemore explains that "mathemancy kings and overlords" would pay a lot for Parson's bracer. So there are overlords out there and royals do not immediately gang up on them.

My theory on what happened:
Sides do not only have enemies, they also have allies. Unaroyal and TV seem to be close long-term allies, which makes sense. They don't have close borders, their rulers like each other and they have a common enemy, GK. I guess old royal GK also had allies. But after the suspected "regicide" the allies of GK became suspicious of Stanley, and he did nothing to maintain the old relationships. His claim of the new titanic mandate surely didn't help. So sooner or later GK had only enemies and no friends. Jetstone heard about the situation and saw it as a perfect opportunity for proving their titanic mandate. Their choosen champion Ansom would defeat Stanley, take his arkentool and by defeating Stanley prove himself worthy to the Titans and attune to the Arkenpliers. Maybe capture 3 or 4 cities and spin of a new side under Ossomer or Trem.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Dancing Cthulhu » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:57 am

Ninjaguineapig wrote:They croaked about half of the RCC units before the volcano, and if Stanley just stayed at GK with his dwagons, foolamancer and Arkenhammer, I don't think they would have needed to uncroak the volcano. GK would have wasted the RCC in the dancefight in the Courtyard if not for the Archons' foolamancy/leadership/dancefighting applied to the RCC troops. But if Stanley was in the Courtyard, giving the uncroaked his Overlord bonus, leading them in a Rock-Out and having his dwagons bring croaking to the Archons, the city would never have fallen in the first place.


Good point, although both Stanley and Wanda assumed GK was done for. If Stanley had stayed put then the battle likely would have changed again. Vinnie and Jillian still would have been there, and with Vinnie's counsel Ansom might have acted differently. Plus Stanley could have been like a big crazy, loose cannon. And if Ansom had still croaked like he did presumably Vinnie would have stepped up.

Plus Charlie's Archon armada might also have been a factor. And if it still had come to uncroaking the volcano... well, Stanley would have been toast.

I thought Parson's victory was all kind of factors that make a good leader. He was smart and innovative, he, at times, was lucky/fortunate, Ansom underestimating him helped and when things went against him he rolled with the punches. In the end, at great cost, he won.

Welf von Ehrwald wrote:Summer update 41, the one with Jillian and Charely, mentions a Lord Shelby the Cobra. Apparently he is an overlord, not a ing, or Jillian would have refered to him as king. And back in book 1 Sizemore explains that "mathemancy kings and overlords" would pay a lot for Parson's bracer. So there are overlords out there and royals do not immediately gang up on them.


Thanks for the info, I forgot all about them.

My theory on what happened:
Sides do not only have enemies, they also have allies. Unaroyal and TV seem to be close long-term allies, which makes sense. They don't have close borders, their rulers like each other and they have a common enemy, GK. I guess old royal GK also had allies. But after the suspected "regicide" the allies of GK became suspicious of Stanley, and he did nothing to maintain the old relationships. His claim of the new titanic mandate surely didn't help. So sooner or later GK had only enemies and no friends. Jetstone heard about the situation and saw it as a perfect opportunity for proving their titanic mandate. Their choosen champion Ansom would defeat Stanley, take his arkentool and by defeating Stanley prove himself worthy to the Titans and attune to the Arkenpliers. Maybe capture 3 or 4 cities and spin of a new side under Ossomer or Trem.


That makes a lot of sense. And also Ansom and Vinnie appeared to be friends, even if Slately looks down on Don, so relationships there might also have been long term and good. And Slately referring to "poor Bea" makes it seem like they may have been on good terms as well (though not as good as Don and Bea).

Indeed I could imagine some of the tension could come from non-royal overlords appearing to be "new members" in the old boys/girls club. Presumably rulers like Don, Slately, Bea have known each other for a long time - perhaps from their days as royal heirs. Maybe their "fathers/mothers" did as well. And Ansom and Cruz likely would have known each other (due to the closeness of their respective sides). But someone who rose to power like Stanley would be coming from seemingly nowhere, with no "historical pedigree" as it were. And of course not trying to make friends either would contribute as well. Certainly in a world ruled by war they'll probably go after rulers they have no real relationship/a negative relationship with before nominal (or even real) allies and friends. And of course the whole royal mandate would make it even easier to justify it.
And so my time with the Tardy Elves draws to a close, and I am let to ponder how the experience will... eh, I'll finish later. No need to rush.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:39 am

Ninjaguineapig wrote:They croaked about half of the RCC units before the volcano, and if Stanley just stayed at GK with his dwagons, foolamancer and Arkenhammer, I don't think they would have needed to uncroak the volcano. GK would have wasted the RCC in the dancefight in the Courtyard if not for the Archons' foolamancy/leadership/dancefighting applied to the RCC troops. But if Stanley was in the Courtyard, giving the uncroaked his Overlord bonus, leading them in a Rock-Out and having his dwagons bring croaking to the Archons, the city would never have fallen in the first place.

I doubt that the uncroaked had the ability to rock out
And if Stanely did not leave, Jillian, Vinnie, all those air units that wanda croaked would still be their... Though one question would be if Tv and charlie would have still sent in all those additional troops to help... that's rather an unknown
However, while Stanely could not lead the uncroaked, he would have been able to mount up all of his dwagons with hobgobwin knights and lead them in an arial rock out fight... and they would have had Jack

in the end the question becomes, could Stanely have had enough to win the air battle... if he could win the air battle then it might have been possible for Parson, Wanda and Sizemore to win on the ground. if Stanely did win the air battle while Parson lost on the ground, he might have still been able to destroy the city without Harming the remaining dwagons... though the dwagons are unlikely to be able to aid him in the tunnels; so not sure how things would go from there with Stanely safe in the air... and if worse came to worse, If Parson needed to blow the volcano, Jack might have been able to help cover his escape... though that's seriously question as i'm not sure if the dwagon could have escaped the volcano as the explosion croaked all the archons in the air and it was not GK's turn which would limit how far the dwagon and Stanely might be able to retreat too; and the volcano effected multiple hexes... so the volcano might have not even been an option.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Ninjaguineapig » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:11 am

MonteCristo wrote:I doubt that the uncroaked had the ability to rock out


I will answer with a quote of my own
Prince Sammy Haggar wrote:and his men could at least headbang

You don't need to be a knight to Rock.
MonteCristo]And if Stanely did not leave, Jillian, Vinnie, all those air units that wanda croaked would still be their... Though one question would be if Tv and charlie would have still sent in all those additional troops to help... that's rather an unknown
However, while Stanely could not lead the uncroaked, he would have been able to mount up all of his dwagons with hobgobwin knights and lead them in an arial rock out fight... and they would have had Jack[/quote]

Even if TV and Charlie sent in additional troops (which may not have had enough move to get to GK), 50 knights on dwagonback, being led in a Rock Out by an overlord with the Arkenhammer, plus Parson's bonus, small as it is, is quite a force indeed.

[quote="MonteCristo wrote:
in the end the question becomes, could Stanely have had enough to win the air battle... if he could win the air battle then it might have been possible for Parson, Wanda and Sizemore to win on the ground. if Stanely did win the air battle while Parson lost on the ground, he might have still been able to destroy the city without Harming the remaining dwagons... though the dwagons are unlikely to be able to aid him in the tunnels; so not sure how things would go from there with Stanely safe in the air... and if worse came to worse, If Parson needed to blow the volcano, Jack might have been able to help cover his escape... though that's seriously question as i'm not sure if the dwagon could have escaped the volcano as the explosion croaked all the archons in the air and it was not GK's turn which would limit how far the dwagon and Stanely might be able to retreat too; and the volcano effected multiple hexes... so the volcano might have not even been an option.


As I said, Stanley would have had no problem creating air superiority, and the RCC ground forces would have to face the uncroaked, who, if not Rocking Out with Stanley, are Dance-Fighting, getting Stanley's overlord bonus and Artifact bonus, Wanda's Master-Class Croakamancer bonus, and Parson's Chief Warlord bonus. And they would have to face this force without having Archons to project Dance Dance Revolution into the sky, and with Stanley, the dwagons and KISS coming down on them after having destroyed the RCC air.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Shoki » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:33 pm

Also don might not of or could not of sent the warlords and Caesar. Seeing how Faq was close by to TV. He didn't seem to want to send them till vinny told him that it was the wise move. At the least it may of given another turn to parson allowing for another court yard of uncroaked another dancefight meatgrinder.


They'd also get one more dwagon.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Cyanshine » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:51 pm

Slately's 'We could win' sounds to me as well as if he himself isn't convinced... Can't wait for the next comic !
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby the_tick_rules » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:29 pm

It seems to depend on what Haggar does.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby MonteCristo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:35 pm

Ninjaguineapig wrote:As I said, Stanley would have had no problem creating air superiority, and the RCC ground forces would have to face the uncroaked, who, if not Rocking Out with Stanley, are Dance-Fighting, getting Stanley's overlord bonus and Artifact bonus, Wanda's Master-Class Croakamancer bonus, and Parson's Chief Warlord bonus. And they would have to face this force without having Archons to project Dance Dance Revolution into the sky, and with Stanley, the dwagons and KISS coming down on them after having destroyed the RCC air.

You should not underestimate the RCC so. Remember, Ansom was confident he could take down GK, including Stanley's dwagons, and that was BEFORE Charlie brought in 30 additional archons. One thing to also take into account is anti-air ground units that would be supporting the archons, other flying units and Jillian

The rcc has Ansom chief warlord bonus, the plier's artifact bonus, Vinnie and Jillian who could lead the archons in dance fighting, all to aid the air fight
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Llord_Droll » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:21 pm

I still bet that Slately lives even after Jetstone is destroyed in battle with Wanda and then captured by Prince Sammie.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:27 pm

For the umpteenth time, Jetstone will not be destroyed, Wanda will lose the battle, and the only likely casualty is -------------------------------->
Unfortunately.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby atteSmythe » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:29 pm

You think Ossomer makes it out alive? I expect him to not. I also expect the Turnamancer to play a pivotal role, though I can't decide which one yet.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:32 pm

atteSmythe wrote:You think Ossomer makes it out alive?


Huh, good point. He has right now close to no distinguishing features - I mean, nothing that seems too plot important. Perfect redshirt material.

Let me elaborate. Ansom- source of drama. Tremennis- fan polarizer, clever cad, likely successor of Jetstone and future thorn of GK. Ossomer- ???
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Sinrus » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:07 pm

Are yo sure that you know what cad means? Because Trem strikes me as the opposite of a cad. Slately would certainly agree, as would any other Royal (except Jillian and others like her)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:17 pm

Ah, English strikes again. I was going for expressing disapproval with implications of puckish behaviour of the character but seeing as how the main nuance of the term is different yeah, poor choice.

So lets revise that to

Tremennis- fan polarizer, clever devil, likely successor of Jetstone and future thorn for GK.
The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby dan2178 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:35 pm

BLANDCorporatio wrote:For the umpteenth time, Jetstone will not be destroyed, Wanda will lose the battle, and the only likely casualty is -------------------------------->
Unfortunately.


You don't think there could be a pyrrhic GK victory with Wanda getting croaked? I think that could be an interesting development:

Does Haggar attack the GK forces in the city? What happens to Trem after Slately dies? Does he become king? a barbarian? disbanded? Do the decypted remain or do they disband? What happens to Jillian? Jack?

Personally, I think Wanda is slated to get croaked soon (preferrably by Slately :lol: ). In my opinion, her vast power makes her a danger to the plot but that's me.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:39 pm

MonteCristo wrote:in the end the question becomes, could Stanely have had enough to win the air battle... if he could win the air battle then it might have been possible for Parson, Wanda and Sizemore to win on the ground. if Stanely did win the air battle while Parson lost on the ground, he might have still been able to destroy the city without Harming the remaining dwagons... though the dwagons are unlikely to be able to aid him in the tunnels; so not sure how things would go from there with Stanely safe in the air... and if worse came to worse, If Parson needed to blow the volcano, Jack might have been able to help cover his escape... though that's seriously question as i'm not sure if the dwagon could have escaped the volcano as the explosion croaked all the archons in the air and it was not GK's turn which would limit how far the dwagon and Stanely might be able to retreat too; and the volcano effected multiple hexes... so the volcano might have not even been an option.


Stanley would have won the air figth, because there wouldn't be so much archons.
But if Stanley wouln't have run away, the situation would be completely different. if he trusted parson, he would have sent all his dwagons to croak Jillian, Ansom, Vinny and the Archons over the lake. if they had succeded, the war would be over, if not, nearly all of their dwagons would be gone. But Stanley wouldn't have ordered the link broken, and could have tamed new dwagons, in three days about a dozen.
If he didn't had trusted Parson, and just recalled his dwagons but didn't flee, he would have kept parson from making the pivotal mistake of contacting Charley. Thus Charley would never had developed an interest for Parson and his bracers, and wouldn't have sent the 30 Archons. He only took that "risk" because due to the calculations he knew it wasn't a risk. And without the escape, GK didn't had to use up their air defences too early.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 009

Postby BLANDCorporatio » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:42 pm

dan2178 wrote:You don't think there could be a pyrrhic GK victory with Wanda getting croaked?


Over the past few comic updates, since Wanda got the new look, fan reaction to her has soured a bit. I could put my tinfoil hat on and say this is an authorial ploy to ready us for her getting done in, but somehow I think there's still narrative juice left to squeeze out of her.

Let us say that after the end of this battle the Wanda-Jillian-Ansom situation gets resolved. Unlikely, but for the sake of argument say that there is no more drama to be milked here. Fine. But the Magic Kingdom's suspicion of Wanda is too good a plot opportunity to waste by dusting the croakamancer we all love to hate and fear.

So no. She'll croak, says my tinfoil hat, just not now. In fact, given as how there's juice in the Foolamancer, she's setting up a decoy.
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