Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:54 pm

Mrtyuh wrote:It was Jillian's Fate, so she had to do it. She probably could have stabbed Olive as soon as she was captured, but she didn't. The when and how didn't matter, only the who, if that makes any sense.

Personally, I think it prevented Jillian from croaking her immediately because it wanted the trial. Fate wanted the future Perfect Warlord to know some of Charlie's secrets, but not all of them. So they have the trial, Jack learns a few things. Wanda is silenced for a while, but Jack still knows some stuff and gets to reveal it later. Wanda knows more important things, but it isn't time for Parson to learn them yet, so for now, she stays silenced.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:29 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Personally, I think it prevented Jillian from croaking her immediately because it wanted the trial.
I wish that the story would come out into the open and make the nature of Fate explicit. All it would take would be a single Epilogue about Marie that gives us insight into Predictamancy. Even an Epilogue about Jojo that explains Carnymancy might do it, if it talks about the right things. It can't be good that so many people have started seeing Erfworld as a puppet show where the characters aren't actually making their own decisions because Fate is controlling them behind the scenes for its own mysterious reasons.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Denar » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:22 pm

Lilwik wrote:It can't be good that so many people have started seeing Erfworld as a puppet show where the characters aren't actually making their own decisions because Fate is controlling them behind the scenes for its own mysterious reasons.


Nobody thinks the characters aren't making their own decisions, the consensus is that Fate is similar to an overbearing GM who tries to railroad characters away from carrying out decisions that go against the plan. It doesn't get involved until people try and do something it doesn't like, and then it just rigs the outcome. People are still making their own decisions, comparing them to mindless "puppets" would be the wrong word. Parson himself likens it to a second GM or some such.

That's right the late Great Fate Debate is back!
Last edited by Denar on Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Tonot » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:07 pm

Maybe fate is all in their minds, a kind of mass delusion that they work at themselves?. Or is unknowable?, because of course, the best stories have mystery, and are probably only important to the person whose story it is, and knowing or being able to know would ruin things for all concerned?.
Marie isn't the happiest of people, is she, and is that because she "knows" fates?.

Carnymancy might well have one answer and Predictamancy another as to what Fate actually is, let alone what Fate actually wants. In fact, given it would seem to be an over-arching kind of discipline, something with power over all of them, it may well WANT different things from you, contingent on your own personal discipline. Or put different pressures on you, anyway.

It would be at least enough for some authoritive declaration that Fate is an actual thing, because at the moment we have only characters word for it. If you came to Earth 100 years ago, they would tell you with equal surety that Newtonian Physics was "a thing". 200 before that, Copernicus would have been "fact".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Mrtyuh » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:52 am

ManaCaster wrote:Personally, I think it prevented Jillian from croaking her immediately because it wanted the trial. Fate wanted the future Perfect Warlord to know some of Charlie's secrets, but not all of them. So they have the trial, Jack learns a few things. Wanda is silenced for a while, but Jack still knows some stuff and gets to reveal it later. Wanda knows more important things, but it isn't time for Parson to learn them yet, so for now, she stays silenced.

Maybe, maybe not. We do know that there were other paths to fulfilling the prophesy. If Jillian had taken "the easy way" Delphie recommended, that is, if she had used the hat to contact Wanda instead of her father, things would have played out differently. There very well may have not been a trial. On the other hand, there may be certain bullet points Fate wants to happen, for example the information about Charlie to become somewhat public. If Jillian had chosen "the easy way," that may have happened in a different fashion. Once Jillian chose "the hard way," the trial became mandatory. So, I'm not disagreeing with you, per se, but we don't really know enough about how Fate works to do anything other than speculate.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby WebSpyder » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Granted, I haven't gone through all 13 pages of posts but am I the only one scratching my head and thinking that this can't be the end of the prequel? I feel like we now have more questions than were answered. There's a huge gap between where this is leaving off and where book 1 starts that I can't seem to reconcile.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby EthericSentinel » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:14 pm

WebSpyder wrote:this can't be the end of the prequel?


Given that the bottom of the page says --End of Part 2-- rather than --End of Book 0--, I'd say you're probably right. There's certainly room for a Part 3 detailing the second Fall of Faq. Even if such a thing is indeed in the works, though, how soon it will be written is an open question.
Jabberwocky wrote:Someone is disagreeing with someone else over an irrelevant bit of trivia on the Internet of all places. Honor demands blood.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Aquillion » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:42 pm

The problem is, we already know the story of the fall of Faq. To the extent that there are any unresolved questions (mostly about Charlie's involvement), they seem like stuff that is likely to be the focus of the main plot, so they probably can't be revealed in a side story.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:57 pm

Aquillion wrote:To the extent that there are any unresolved questions (mostly about Charlie's involvement), they seem like stuff that is likely to be the focus of the main plot, so they probably can't be revealed in a side story.
I want to know exactly why Wanda chose to betray Faq and what her life was like in Faq. I want to know if Wanda killed Banhammer personally, and all of the details of that. The few vague details given by Stanley in B2T27 are not nearly enough to satisfy me.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:31 pm

Lilwik wrote:I want to know exactly why Wanda chose to betray Faq
She didn't. Book 1, Page 147, Panel 3.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby 0beron » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:32 pm

That's what she says now. It's possible she's lying, or at least romanticizing her decisions.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:35 pm

I've yet to see any indication that she would lie to Parson.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:17 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I've yet to see any indication that she would lie to Parson.
I'm sure she wasn't lying. If she wanted to lie, she could have made herself look good, instead of admitting to betraying Faq. Her not expecting the betrayal to actually destroy Faq doesn't change the fact that it was a betrayal, and it doesn't make her less responsible for the destruction of Faq. On top of that, she even turned in the middle of the battle and started helping Stanley. It's hard to imagine a better confirmation of her betrayal than that.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby NYbear » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:09 am

Lilwik wrote:
Shai_hulud wrote:I've yet to see any indication that she would lie to Parson.
I'm sure she wasn't lying. If she wanted to lie, she could have made herself look good, instead of admitting to betraying Faq. Her not expecting the betrayal to actually destroy Faq doesn't change the fact that it was a betrayal, and it doesn't make her less responsible for the destruction of Faq. On top of that, she even turned in the middle of the battle and started helping Stanley. It's hard to imagine a better confirmation of her betrayal than that.


Yeah but look at it from her point of view as a survivor/pragmatist. See saw which way the wind was blowing. Stanley's dragons were far more than she expected. FaQ was going to fall so she had 3 options:
1)Fight the good fight and probably croak, captured if she was lucky.
2)Escape to the magic kingdom, which keeps her alive and free, but no closer to her initial goal of getting Stanley's tool (which is why she wanted him to attack in the first place, to croak him and take it for herself)
3)Change plans, turn against your doomed side in order to get into the good graces of your soon to be conqueror, in order to remain close to the tool you covet.

I'm not saying she made a particularly moral or ethical choice, but seeing it from her specific point of view, you can appreciate the pragmatism of her decisions. Is it betrayal of her loyalty to FAQ? Sure. But its not a betrayal of her higher loyalty, to Fate. She doesn't have to lie to "make herself look good" - as far as she is concerned she made the "correct" choice.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Mrtyuh » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:17 pm

As we have seen, even from Wanda's inner monologue, she is always seeking the most direct path to her fate. She learned she was Fated to attune to an Arkentool, so she arranged for an Arkentool to be brought to her. She even misled Stanley as to the strength of Faqs defenses, expecting him to arrive with an inadequate force. When she saw that he had come with an overwhelming force, she came to the conclusion that Fate wanted Stanley to win, so she chose to follow the will of Fate. To me, anyway, it seems completely consistent with her character.

As for the future of Book 0, Rob originally said he wanted to cover the rise of Stanley and the Fall of Faq. While his plans may have evolved since then, there are still many stories he could tell. We may see what Stanley did to be promoted from piker to warlord. How did Stanley get his hands on the Arkenhammer? As mentioned, we still don't know all the details on the Fall of Faq, specifically the extent and motivations of Charlie's involvement. We may see the croaking of King Saline IV. There are still many stories Rob could tell. Xin already mentioned that she is going to continue providing the illustrations for Book 0. While I can't say how much is left, there's still plenty of room for more.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Icy » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:44 am

I think the jester represents self awareness/individualism. Without being self aware, no erf worlder would ever defy....no would be breaking Charlies system. The jester seems like a guardian/representative of Jillians individuality, Charlie likes all his archons being alike, less variables to worry over. A tool of the enemy could fit into that by individuals being fated have more self awareness, more uniqueness.

The Jillian after this mind rape asks for guidance more, knows herself less.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:37 am

Icy wrote:I think the jester represents self awareness/individualism.
That fits with the way the jester helped Jillian realize that Banhammer was still alive in Episode 52. It was Jillian's awareness of her own status that told her Banhammer was still alive. It is less clear why Jillian's self awareness would want her to kill Judy.

Icy wrote:Without being self aware, no erf worlder would ever defy....no would be breaking Charlies system.
Trying to kill self-awareness seems a bit radical for Charlie. I'm not sure that would be a world worth living in. If that is really what he is trying to do, then he'd need a better reason.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ftl » Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:33 pm

Lilwik wrote: It was Jillian's awareness of her own status that told her Banhammer was still alive. It is less clear why Jillian's self awareness would want her to kill Judy.


Because Judy was the Ruler of an enemy side. I think that does make sense - attacking an enemy Ruler right next to you would be a pretty fundamental desire for an erfworlder, especially one as warlike as jillian, and it's only the hero buds that are suppressing it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby Beeskee » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:03 pm

I stumbled across this in the summer archives again: S20

Jillian tried to recover the conversation. "So, what else am I missing?"

Don King looked at the empty cup and saucer in front of her, tilting his head slightly at it. "Why don't you like tea, Jillian?"

Jillian glanced down briefly, her brow wrinkled. "I dunno."


And then at the current end of book 0 we Jillian's mind basically being erased. Before that, she knew exactly why she didn't like tea.

It takes on an entirely different context now.


Damnit Rob you are evil. :D
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 081

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:24 pm

Beeskee wrote:I stumbled across this in the summer archives again: S20

Jillian tried to recover the conversation. "So, what else am I missing?"

Don King looked at the empty cup and saucer in front of her, tilting his head slightly at it. "Why don't you like tea, Jillian?"

Jillian glanced down briefly, her brow wrinkled. "I dunno."


And then at the current end of book 0 we Jillian's mind basically being erased. Before that, she knew exactly why she didn't like tea.

It takes on an entirely different context now.


Damnit Rob you are evil. :D

It would make sense, since Betsy would want to make Jillian into her ideal image of a princess but would lack the skill to do a good job, but I interpreted this scene as a mere reluctance to talk about it.
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