Caster Juice and the wiki article.

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Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Cogidubnus » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:18 pm

The Erfwiki claims (here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Juice) that " Juice replenishes at the start of a new turn, taking several "turns's worth" of juice to replenish to full." This is based on the comment Jillian's Turnamancer makes that the spell to end Gobwin Knob's turn "took two turns worth, basically". (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-24.jpg)

I read this comment as meaning "It used up all my juice from last turn, and most of the juice I got from this turn, on account of it being a huge spell which had effects either side of a turn boundary". Do people feel this is at least as valid a reading, or am I being mad?
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby No one in particular » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:46 pm

I think it depends on if a Caster's personal reserve has an upper limit.

I, for one, made the assumption that a Caster could only hold so much Juice at a time, and they got back as Turns passed (eg. max MP: 100, regen rate: 10/Turn)

If there isn't an upper limit, and a Caster can sit on their Juice pool for a few turns and stockpile it... hmm!

I think either case is still possible at this point, since we're still learning new things every update.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby drachefly » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:56 pm

Cogidubnus wrote:The Erfwiki claims (here: http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Juice) that " Juice replenishes at the start of a new turn, taking several "turns's worth" of juice to replenish to full." This is based on the comment Jillian's Turnamancer makes that the spell to end Gobwin Knob's turn "took two turns worth, basically". (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-24.jpg)

I read this comment as meaning "It used up all my juice from last turn, and most of the juice I got from this turn, on account of it being a huge spell which had effects either side of a turn boundary". Do people feel this is at least as valid a reading, or am I being mad?


That is exactly how I read it.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:10 pm

Vanna is trying to explain to a non-caster, even more importantly a unit with good reason to HATE casters, the gravity/demands of the spell. I have never interpreted that statement too literally. Casters seem to essentially share juice when they link, so it may simply have meant that Charlie's juice pool helped.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby GWvsJohn » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:18 pm

I always interpreted it that the Carnymancy in the link allowed her to break the juice rules and use next turns juice now.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:36 pm

Cogidubnus wrote:I read this comment as meaning "It used up all my juice from last turn, and most of the juice I got from this turn, on account of it being a huge spell which had effects either side of a turn boundary". Do people feel this is at least as valid a reading, or am I being mad?
When you say it like that, I'm struck by how obviously correct it must be, and how the wiki must be wrong. I've puzzled over that before, but now I don't know why it wasn't obvious. Juice replenishes at the start of the caster's turn, and Vanna's turn had just started moments before, so naturally she should be full of juice, but she's not. So if we assume that each turn has an independent juice supply, Vanna obviously had two turns of juice available for casting that spell, which means that the only evidence we've ever seen that has suggested juice could be stockpiled isn't actually evidence of that at all. If Vanna had said "three turns" or "several turns" or anything like that then that would suggest stockpiling, but she specifically said "two turns."
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby MadZuri » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:38 am

I would also like to point out that using more than one turns worth of juice may be something unique to turnamancers. A lot of their abilities make things happen in 1 turn that usually take a turn and a half, and juice expenditure might be one of them. But yeah, using exactly 2 turns worth of juice most likely was unique to this spell.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Shai_hulud » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:28 pm

I assumed she just had a pool that filled up over time, like most games.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:54 pm

Shai_hulud wrote:I assumed she just had a pool that filled up over time, like most games.
But it turns out that it's not true. Combat units get their injuries fully healed and similarly casters get their juice completely filled. Vanna was the only reason we ever had to doubt the evidence for that, and now it's pretty clear that it wasn't a good reason. Consider Summer Update 47 where Bunny uses up the last of her juice each night on a personal call. That wouldn't make much sense unless the juice were going to be wasted if she didn't use it. More recently we have Digdoug 1 where he spends half of his juice in the morning, saving the rest for the afternoon because he thinks the city might be attacked; in other words, even though he is thinking about keeping juice reserves, he deliberately works himself down to zero juice by the end of the day, keeping no emergency reserve for tomorrow.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:39 pm

Vanna said the spell required 2 turns worth of juice, but that she still had a little juice left over.

So she probably meant that the spell consumed most of her juice, along with the juice of the other caster in the link.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Fact is...we have no idea what she meant, all the theories come with the "she probably meant" caveat. So we should instead look to other examples since it serves us as a poor one. And the other examples indicate that casters have a certain max pool that is always fully replenished at the start of turn, and they never go over. Bunny and Digdoug burn up their extra juice, everything else about units replenishes at the start of their turn, and casters in the comic have always spent their juice on preparations rather than just saving up for a big blast when they know a battle is coming in future turns (Goodminton before Wanda's tower trick, FAQ's court in Efbaum, to name two off the top of my head.) When viewed in that context, Vanna's comment becomes the outlier, so it is reasonable to conclude she was speaking metaphorically in some fashion, or being hyperbolic.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby drachefly » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:10 pm

... or being directly literal. All yesterday's juice and almost all of today's.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:19 pm

If that's even possible. The spell was cast on the previous side's turn, so all the juice should have been spent then, yet her she is on-turn without her full juice, so maybe Charlie's abilities allowed "juice theft" from her own future, or Charlie himself siphoned away some juice in the new turn to compensate for spending a bunch himself. Or maybe Vanna is suffering from "link sickness" as I call it, negative side effects/backlash following a link like Jack after the Eyemancers were dissolved.
That speculation aside though, my point was that under normal circumstances it seems clear casters have daily juice, not some larger pool that slowly replenishes. Whatever happened in Vanna's case seems to be the exception rather than the norm.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby ftl » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:58 pm

Also, it was a linkup. With Charlie and an arkentool involved, but we don't know any specifics. And we know the Arkendish can let you do some very powerful things, and that tri-links break a lot of rules... it's hard to generalize from that example.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:07 pm

Exactly my thought process.

On a semi-related note, does anyone find it interesting how casters never talk about Juice numerically? Hits, damage, bonuses, everything else in Erfworld seems to be understood as and referenced by number, but never once does a caster talk about precisely how much Juice they have or how much a spell cost, it's all subjective quantities rather than hard numbers.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Lilwik » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:03 pm

0beron wrote:The spell was cast on the previous side's turn, so all the juice should have been spent then, yet her she is on-turn without her full juice, so maybe Charlie's abilities allowed "juice theft" from her own future, or Charlie himself siphoned away some juice in the new turn to compensate for spending a bunch himself.
It's not clear that the spell was cast on the previous turn. The spell itself caused the turn to change, so it was Gobwin Knob's turn when she started casting, and her turn when she finished casting. If she had her juice replenished in the middle of casting and used up much of that new juice supply, that shouldn't surprise us. Or maybe she's the only caster who didn't get her juice refilled at the start of her turn because she's the one who made the turn start. In that case the juice she didn't receive was a part of the cost of the spell.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:06 pm

It's not clear that the spell was cast on the previous turn.
Sorry, no, but I'm gonna stop you right there while there's still a chance. Let's be a LIL bit logical about this shall we? If the outcome of the spell was changing the turn (ie, the effect) then this result would have to occur after the spell was complete (ie, the cause.) Don't even try and tell me that you're gonna claim erfworld now doesn't follow "linear" time of cause and effect.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby Omnimancer » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:58 pm

0beron wrote:Exactly my thought process.

On a semi-related note, does anyone find it interesting how casters never talk about Juice numerically? Hits, damage, bonuses, everything else in Erfworld seems to be understood as and referenced by number, but never once does a caster talk about precisely how much Juice they have or how much a spell cost, it's all subjective quantities rather than hard numbers.


There might be precise numbers for juice, but it might be the kind of thing you can only estimate without a Mathamancer.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby drachefly » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:27 pm

0beron wrote:
It's not clear that the spell was cast on the previous turn.
Sorry, no, but I'm gonna stop you right there while there's still a chance. Let's be a LIL bit logical about this shall we? If the outcome of the spell was changing the turn (ie, the effect) then this result would have to occur after the spell was complete (ie, the cause.) Don't even try and tell me that you're gonna claim erfworld now doesn't follow "linear" time of cause and effect.


And we know that turn transitions are atomic events because... Oh! We don't! In fact, since there's an entire school of magic devoted to them that can do multiple relatively unrelated things to these transitions, it seems likely that it has multiple parts.

For instance, pushing through could require a continuous expenditure of juice, and reaching the other side required burning it up as she refilled - and if she didn't finish, the change would roll back and it'd be GK's turn again.
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Re: Caster Juice and the wiki article.

Postby 0beron » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:42 pm

....logic, where did it go? Even MORE invented explanations where none is needed! Either it is one's turn or it is not. There's no wonky "I am simultaneously on and off turn at the same time!" state of being. Nor has a spell had an effect yet also failed. Wanda uncroaks a body or she doesn't, she doesn't make a body start walking only to have it revert back to a corpse. Sizemore digs a tunnel or he doesn't, he doesn't start digging and then get buried when the dirt suddenly reappears. There is no halfway status that later fails and reverts. Either the spell works or it doesn't. Since when did erfworld turn into some bizarre twist of Schrodinger's cat?
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