Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Nightingale » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:40 pm

Stanley + wanda
Noone ever tried a link with a non caster because what's the point but here they'll be able to combine their arkentools to do... Something? Not sure what but it feels like the kind of out of the box idea parson's DM is looking for.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Falcon X » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:51 pm

Actually, I want to go off this.
This theory can probably be destroyed with an easy-to-find quote. But then, the person who said it might not have the power of lateral thinking...

Point 1: It is clear that all casters can lead stacks and do other warlord-type things, just to a lower scale. So, are we sure that Warlords can't also do magic, just to a lower scale. Perhaps they have no specialty and can only cast from items or scrolls. Or possibly, their warlord ability is a spell school of it's own.

Point 2: Given that Parson, Judy, and Charlie are all originally from stupid world. What if they are ALL Warlords and not casters. Meaning that Charlie has no more innate casting ability than Parson, Judy, or theoretically Jillian (all the other Warlords).
Charlie, like the Wizard of Oz, came in and pulled off a bunch of illusions making people think he was a Carnymancer, when really he just had the Signamancy of a Carnymancer, again, like the Wizard of Oz.
However, much like parson has a Mathamancy bracer to make him ACT like a caster, Charlie has the Arkendish (and possibly other tools) that gave him all the power of a caster.

Back to the Topic: Given points 1 and 2, Stanley might just be able to do a link-up.
- Even just given the idea that Charlie isn't innately a caster, but his Arkentool has made him one. This should mean that link-ups are feasible through the Arkentools.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Falcon X » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:11 pm

To directly answer your question, I would look at parson's goals:
1. Hack Charlie for Intel
2. Defend against Charlie's thinkamancy
3. Make friends in the MK.
4. Protect the Tool
5. Protect Spacerock, cause it's the capitol

If I were parson, I would try:
2. Foolamancy+Thinkamancy: Set up false trails in the G-strings so Charlie can't find them.
- Add in Dirtamancy (or possibly a device with Dollamancy) to create new locations or portable devices that give cover like the Thinkamancer's temple does.
3. Above trick, but it applies to the entire magic kingdom. Thus making the Thinkamancer's hate him, but most of the others love him for protecting them from Charlie. Sounds like something he'd do.
4. Foolamany+Dollamancy - Create shadow clones of the Tool. Getting the idea from the ditto'd King. The King's double had all the power of the original. Parson might find a way...
3. Some kind of revolutionary Croakamancy that does what it should never be able to do. Something that changes the way the other casters and Wanda think about her.
1. Parson's stealth golem trick, modified with lookamancy so they can control it from afar like a video game.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby conmor » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:43 am

Charlie is noooot from stupid world
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby spriteless » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:32 am

Prove it using only information available in 2013!
T'was a splendidly speedy defection.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:16 pm

spriteless wrote:Prove it using only information available in 2013!

Actually I don't think any new info has come to light this year on that, but there has never been anything to indicate that he is not from Erfworld beyond how odd he is. The only other thing remotely close is that he has used the word 'kill' once in order to complete a quote parody properly, but there is nothing stopping Erfworlders from using the word, they just don't, as it is akin to a curse word for them.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Alpha the White » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:44 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote: there is nothing stopping Erfworlders from using the word, they just don't, as it is akin to a curse word for them.

That's really not how it's ever described. It's more like Erfworlders know what the word means, but they don't know why or why the heck you would use that word instead of "croak."
Years, kill, etc. are simply alien words that they magically know the meaning of.
Charlie using it means one of two things:
1. Charlie is not from Erfworld.
2. Charlie has spent enough time around Stupidworlders to feel that "kill" is sometimes more appropriate than "croak."

Charlie was familiar with Judy, so it's possible he learned it from her.
It's also possible he has some means of looking at Stupidworld, and mimics things he sees there (Charles deGaulle, guns, etc. etc.).

It is likewise possible that he's actually a Stupidworlder, but he doesn't want anyone to know that, to the extent that he even hides his "background" as a carny. If anyone ever dug up his past as a Carny Overlord, the difficulty of finding that history would make them think there was nothing left to dig up, and would therefore accept that there's nothing behind that. That kind of lies-within-lies game seems perfectly within character for Charlie, and is reminiscent of the actual Wizard of Oz's efforts to hide his true nature.

The case for Charlie as a Stupidworlder is fourfold:
1. Charlie has used Stupidworlder words in conversation with Erfworlders.
2. Charlie gets Parson's jokes, ie, he sees the Signamancy of Erfworld for what it is.
3. Charlie was the Wizard in Erfworld's version of the Wizard of Oz, who was in fact from Kansas/Stupidworld in the original story. The signamancy of his role therefore suggests Charlie may also not be from Oz/Erfworld
4. Charlie formulated the "first" Perfect Warlord spell. While this could have simply been a bright idea on his part, it could also mean he was aware of the possibility of pulling people from worlds perfectly suited to such a role.

None of these points are conclusive, but all are suggestive.

The case for Charlie as an Erfworlder is twofold:
1. We know Charlie has a history as a Carny Overlord, whose story made no suggestion he was any more than that.
2. Charlie is really good to carnies.

Regarding 1, we only heard the story from Wanda, who heard it from Olive/The Haffaton Casters/Judy. For none of these characters do we have any indication that any of them were "older" than Charlie, so he could easily have hidden his origin from them.

2 is actually the most interesting evidence to me of Charlie as an Erfworlder. If he were just a Stupidworlder who happened to be a carnymancer (like Parson is a hippiemancer), we wouldn't have much reason to expect him to be so sympathetic to the carnymancers. It makes more sense that he empathizes with their plight as one of them.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby conmor » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:33 pm

charlie probably learned the words from the first pcw and decided to use them when talking to another person from the same place in an effort to make a better deal.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Silversought » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:39 pm

conmor wrote:charlie probably learned the words from the first pcw and decided to use them when talking to another person from the same place in an effort to make a better deal.

Parson comes from a different culture than Judy, conmor. She was a crazy old lady probably thousands of turns before Parson ever showed up. He also definitely seems more aware of what he's saying than just parroting. While that doesn't make the case for him just being from Stupidworld, it does suggest he has some edge over other units who have had exposure to a Stupidworlder.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:49 pm

Charlie does seem to get more of Parson's net speak than Sizemore, but Charlie hasn't gotten all of Parson's references. Personally, I'm a fan of the theory (don't remember who proposed it) that goes something along the lines of:

'Erfworld follows so many of the other rules of video games, that it only makes sense that like any other video game, once there is a winner, the game is over (or, Erfworld actually is a video game that someone has left running somewhere) and everything will end. The Dish let Charlie see into the 'real' world and realize just what Erfworld is. This is why Charlie gets Parson's references and net speak, but doesn't get everything. This is also why Charlie doesn't want peace on Erf, and seems to actively work to ensure there is as much war as possible, to make sure the game keeps going (Could be a 'diplomacy' victory condition).'

I added a few of my own ideas in there, but the central idea there is that the dish lets Charlie see into our world to some degree. It could explain alot while still having him be an Erfworlder.

@silversought - Judy presumably wasn't old/crazy before Olive got her hooked on buds, since she managed to take down a side (and was the target of a perfect warlord spell)
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby conmor » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:56 pm

charlie is nothing if not adaptable. my guess is that he spoke at least a bit with judy (with would be 38-40k be parson showed up) when she was not being mad at golems that 8used to be her friends. charlie already had a basis and would know words like kill or year or week or day. he spoke to parson at first through the eyebooks and would have time between responses to process a word that he didn't know if it showed up. there is a fairly limited amount of words that erfworlders wouldn't know and charlie would've had time to learn over half of that small list from Judy. sizemore had a problem understanding the concepts behind parson's speech than the words themselves.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:10 pm

conmor wrote:charlie is nothing if not adaptable. my guess is that he spoke at least a bit with judy (with would be 38-40k be parson showed up) when she was not being mad at golems that 8used to be her friends. charlie already had a basis and would know words like kill or year or week or day. he spoke to parson at first through the eyebooks and would have time between responses to process a word that he didn't know if it showed up. there is a fairly limited amount of words that erfworlders wouldn't know and charlie would've had time to learn over half of that small list from Judy. sizemore had a problem understanding the concepts behind parson's speech than the words themselves.

Sizemore had problems with net speak used by Parson, things like 'lol' and such. The most notable one was 'kkthxbye' or something like that, which he didn't get. Charlie meanwhile hasn't had that problem with any of Parson's acronyms, which isn't something he could have learned from Judy. And Erfworlders know what words like 'Kill' mean, so Charlie wouldn't have had to learn them from anyone, except maybe to know it exists and be able to use it himself.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Alpha the White » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:34 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote: the central idea there is that the dish lets Charlie see into our world to some degree. It could explain alot while still having him be an Erfworlder.

Yeah, that's what I was saying, there are only really three ways for Charlie to "know" what he knows, and one of them is for him to be able to see Stupidworld.
I honestly don't think "he spent time with Judy" is enough, it's a huge step from knowing what words to use talking with a Stupidworlder to using those words in conversation with an Erfworlder (Tramennis). It's suggested that would give him an advantage in a conversation, but I can't conceive of a reason saying "kill" to Tramennis instead of "croak" would do anything more than confuse Tramennis. You'd have to spend a LOT of time with a Stupidworlder for that to be a natural reaction, and we have every indication that Charlie's time with Judy was limited, and it's been likely thousands of turns since the fall of Efbaum. That's in addition to your point about the netspeak, which Judy probably wouldn't have known.

That leaves: He is a Stupidworlder, or he can see Stupidworld in some way.
I'm honestly on the fence about these, I see a lot of evidence on either side, and Charlie's secretive nature makes it really hard to rule either one out.

I did miss a point on the side of Charlie's an Erfworlder: size. Olive was supposedly Charlie's daughter, and others in Haffaton would have known Charlie, so if he were Stupidworlder size, it seems like they might have mentioned that fact.
Of course, he could have spent his entire time at Efbaum pretending to be a giant head just like the Wizard of Oz, but still.

For every point I can find one way or another, I can find an alternative explanation, except that one of those two has to be true.

Regardless, I still think it's very important that Erfworld is like a huge joke that only Parson is in on...except that Charlie is, too.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:53 pm

Alpha the White wrote:Regardless, I still think it's very important that Erfworld is like a huge joke that only Parson is in on...except that Charlie is, too.

It's also a joke that Judy was in on, to at least a tiny extent. Remember that when she left, she said something about returning to Kansas, but Judy wasn't from Kansas, Dorthy was. So that only makes sense if she grasped that the world she was in was reflecting the Wizard of Oz as the movie she had been in.

I'm not sure why Parson thought she couldn't be the same Judy he knew, but my theory was that she didn't die in stupidworld, but was instead brought to Erfworld, and didn't come back to stupidworld till much later, when she couldn't be recognized. Or, she left, then returned right away, and that is where her 'death by drugs' came from: the heroine bud that has lethal withdrawal.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Godzfirefly » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:27 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
Alpha the White wrote:Regardless, I still think it's very important that Erfworld is like a huge joke that only Parson is in on...except that Charlie is, too.

It's also a joke that Judy was in on, to at least a tiny extent. Remember that when she left, she said something about returning to Kansas, but Judy wasn't from Kansas, Dorthy was. So that only makes sense if she grasped that the world she was in was reflecting the Wizard of Oz as the movie she had been in.

I'm not sure why Parson thought she couldn't be the same Judy he knew, but my theory was that she didn't die in stupidworld, but was instead brought to Erfworld, and didn't come back to stupidworld till much later, when she couldn't be recognized. Or, she left, then returned right away, and that is where her 'death by drugs' came from: the heroine bud that has lethal withdrawal.

You have suggested before that Judy may be Judy Garland. But, it should be pointed out that the name she used in Erfworld was Judy Gale, rather than Judy Garland or Dorothy Gale. She may indeed have been a Stupidworlder from Kansas. And, it might be that Parson knows how much (or how little) time has passed between Judy's coming and going and his own arrival. It may not match up well to Ms Garland's lifetime, even if her reported death in your theory is supposed to match up with her arrival in Erfworld.

(For reference, Judy Garland died June 22nd 1969, which would be about 14,600 Turns ago, depending on what year it is in Erfworld. I measured just until 2009. Do we really think Wanda, Jillian, Charlie, and Jack are all that old?)
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby GWvsJohn » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:03 am

Parson is a huge gamer and he's playing out a gamer fantasy in Erfworld. I always thought Judy was a huge Wizard of Oz fan so living out a Wizard of Oz fantasy. The only weird part is that Parson didn't think of that.

I think if Transylvito used the SPW spell, they'd get a huge vampire fan.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:16 am

GWvsJohn wrote:I think if Transylvito used the SPW spell, they'd get a huge vampire fan.

*insert twilight joke here*
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby conmor » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:18 pm

wanda had spent enough time in haffaton for it to become the largest side in erfworld. charlie was popped before haffaton was a side. jack and jill...when i was typeing that i found the pun behind their names... is it the pun rob was intending? meh. jack and jill are relatively the same age and were alive long enough to see haffaton go from regular size to largest side. from the events that had transpired and the magnitude of the events then yes i assume it is reasonable to say that they have survived for more than 38k turns. also the estimate of how many turns since judy would be a lot more since it would be before the wizard of oz was published. that is where my 38,000 to 40,000 turn estimate came from. also i dont think it was a woo fan since parson was saying that charlie was THE woo. and that judy was THE dorothy/judy garland. in the b2e
Last edited by conmor on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Godzfirefly » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:00 am

For the sake of discussion, I'll accept your premise that Judy might have been the original source for Frank L Baum's original The Wonderful Wizard of Oz book in the comic continuity. It's actually one of the most defensible arguments you've made to date anyway, since we have literally no evidence to suggest otherwise and it would give a semi-plausible way for the Wizard of Oz story to have played out in Erf and also be told in Stupidworld.

If we accept that premise, let's follow it to its logical conclusion.

A) The Wonderful Wizard of Oz 1st edition was published in May of 1900. Frank L Baum was said to have written the book based on stories he told to his sons as they was growing up, and the first son was born in 1883. That's a reasonable range to work from, spanning 17 years or a little over 6200 turns during which Judy might have left Erfworld.
B) The Erfworld comic started in 2008, so it's safe to assume that was the year that Parson was summoned.
C) This means that anywhere from 108-125 years or 39420-45625 turns passed between the period of Haffaton's Fall and Parson's Summoning. That is a long time...

Certain things could be gleaned from this estimate, if it is accurate.
1) Erfworlders can live a very long time without significant Stupidworld-style aging. (I can accept that.)
2) Being ruler of Jetstone is much more dangerous than being a barbarian warlord, a caster of Faq/Gobwin Knob, or Charlie. After all, there were 16 rulers of Jetstone in 80,000 turns (about 5000 turns or 14 years each, on average.) And, Jack, Jillian, Wanda, and Charlie all survived the alleged 40-45 thousand turns without significant death. This would also suggest that the Great Minds aren't all that old, since the oldest of them is 28,800 Turns or about 79 years...only about 2/3 the elapsed time.
3) Jetstone was definitely a contemporary of Haffaton. (We pretty much guessed this anyway, but this would confirm it.)
4) Jillian, Jack, and Wanda were very lazy about leveling over the century. Ansom was presumably popped after Slately became ruler and was level 10 when he was decrypted. The average suggests that means he leveled 9 times in about 5000 turns (Slately might have ruled longer than average, but Ansom probably wasn't popped immediately either.) By the same merit, in the alleged 8-9 times longer, Jillian, Jack, and Wanda seem...well, it's hard to tell exactly...not high enough to have been in the world that much longer. Jillian is listed in the wiki as level 9. Wanda is speculated to be level 8 during the Battle of Gobwin Knob because of the stated bonus she gives her uncroaked. Who knows what level Jack is...maybe he is higher than even Olive was at her death, I dunno. He's least likely to count as lazy, I guess. (Admittedly, those three all had various extenuating circumstances. And, Faq may not be the best place to level.)
5) The history of Banhammer's Faq or Gobwin Knob or both may be a lot longer than we thought. Also, either Banhammer or Stanley were ruler for waaaay longer than Jetstone's leader. Probably Banhammer.

Some interesting concepts to ponder, even if it's not the primary theory.
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Re: Parson's great idea for a link up will be...

Postby Silversought » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:39 am

Godzfirefly wrote:For the sake of discussion, I'll accept your premise that Judy might have been the original source for Frank L Baum's original The Wonderful Wizard of Oz book in the comic continuity. It's actually one of the most defensible arguments you've made to date anyway, since we have literally no evidence to suggest otherwise and it would give a semi-plausible way for the Wizard of Oz story to have played out in Erf and also be told in Stupidworld.

If we accept that premise, let's follow it to its logical conclusion.

A) The Wonderful Wizard of Oz 1st edition was published in May of 1900. Frank L Baum was said to have written the book based on stories he told to his sons as they was growing up, and the first son was born in 1883. That's a reasonable range to work from, spanning 17 years or a little over 6200 turns during which Judy might have left Erfworld.
B) The Erfworld comic started in 2008, so it's safe to assume that was the year that Parson was summoned.
C) This means that anywhere from 108-125 years or 39420-45625 turns passed between the period of Haffaton's Fall and Parson's Summoning. That is a long time...

Certain things could be gleaned from this estimate, if it is accurate.
2) Being ruler of Jetstone is much more dangerous than being a barbarian warlord, a caster of Faq/Gobwin Knob, or Charlie. After all, there were 16 rulers of Jetstone in 80,000 turns (about 5000 turns or 14 years each, on average.) And, Jack, Jillian, Wanda, and Charlie all survived the alleged 40-45 thousand turns without significant death. This would also suggest that the Great Minds aren't all that old, since the oldest of them is 28,800 Turns or about 79 years...only about 2/3 the elapsed time.



Minor nitpick about the dangers of barbarians and such. Jillian and Wanda are both Fated units; I don't know if they continue to have Fates after fulfilling a specific Prediction, but I assume Fate establishes them as main characters, making them especially difficult to flat out remove from the game board. Jack was a caster in a bubble kingdom; that gives him pretty good odds for survival. Pair that with the fact that, as a caster, he was sought out for capture rather than just croaking, and that makes his life span pretty reasonable. Charlie. . . Charlie is a devious Carnymancer/Overlord who clearly should have been croaked at least once by now. I don't think he's an example of your typical Overlord lifespan.
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