Is Erfworld winnable?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby No one in particular » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:57 am

Upon reflection, the more appropriate question to ask isn't "how can one win within the rules?" but "did the Titan's design the game to be winnable?"

I mean, my suggestion, while within the rules, would require a ridiculous amount of cooperation between players (read: Rulers). The real issue is did the Titan's design Erfworld such that a side COULD win within the rules, or did they design it such that Erfworld would perpetuate itself, so they would have a good, long show to watch before they had to reset or start something new or whatever.

From a game to game basis, the "how can we win" mindset makes sense. But from the meta-game view, the "how LONG can we get a game to run" mindset makes even MORE sense! Diminishing returns, splintering sides, easy upsets... the Titans don't want Erfworld to end!
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby Lilwik » Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:13 am

No one in particular wrote:Diminishing returns, splintering sides, easy upsets... the Titans don't want Erfworld to end!
At some point someone in the forums posted something that Rob was supposed to have said in public about the rules for farming and mining and that sort of thing. What was said included the fact that Erfworld will slowly reset itself to its natural state if an area is left untouched for long enough. So a mine can run out of gems if it is mined hard enough, but Erfworld will never run out of mines because an abandoned mine will eventually refill itself and undo all the mining. This seems like a perfect example of Erfworld deviating from Stupidworld in a way that can have no other purpose than to keep Erfworld going forever.
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby Shai_hulud » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:37 am

Ok, now define "Win" becuase it occurs to me we all might be using a different definition. Who said winning included ending the game world after all?
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby raphfrk » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:52 am

Citric Thoughts wrote:Also the contracts may not be as unbreakable as we think, and the rules may dictate that this is somehow unviable.


The unbreakable contract might have had something to do with the dish enhancement of the linkup.

However, as long as they don't all break at once, it isn't that big a problem. If the alliance is 100 sides and 1 of them breaks the contract, then it is 99 vs 1.

Making sure that everyone is still bound by the contract would be important. If sides can free themselves of the contact, without the main side knowing, then eventually, more than half the sides could be free.

Renewal of the contract periodically could help with that. For example, if the contracts tend to last 500 turns and each turn one of the allies re-pledges loyalty, then it is unlikely that more than half would every be free at one time.
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby bpzinn » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:32 pm

This is not the pertinent question. The question that needs to be answered first is

"Did the Titans allow for the POSSIBILITY of winning in Erfworld" followed by
"If not, how rigorous reality programmers were they?"

Because if as some people are arguing, they never intended anyone to "win," would they have added a script anyway?

Why is this important? Because Pac-man. The programmers never believed some players would actually get as far as they did. But then it happened, and it crashed the game. As an Erfworld example, what if a side has 256 places allocated for indexing that sides cities (hexes 00 - FF). And there are more than 256 city sites on Erf. A side having a 257 city at once could overflow the natural thinkamancy a ruler uses to keep track if the side, and make the game unstable.

Also because Tetris. Slightly less cataclysmic is the use of Rubber Band Difficulty. If the occurrences of Barbarian units are tied to the number of sides in play, and increase as sides decrease... Or other events as the "Random" Number Event Generator starts to have you, and starts spamming out Meteors and Plagues to work you over. Like Tetris, you could theoretically keep going forever, taking care of problems as they come up. You just cannot ever make a mistake, or the game will bury you alive.

The best outcome (arguably even better then a scripted win condition) is where you can "win"... and nothing happens. The game keeps going without change, except you are the only side. At that point you can paint a finish line behind you, and declare victory.

Considering Charlies 180 degree turn, I am guessing he does not believe the latter will happen anymore.
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby Shai_hulud » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:42 pm

bpzinn wrote:Considering Charlies 180 degree turn, I am guessing he does not believe the latter will happen anymore.
Or he decided mind control was not an acceptable form of victory. He hasn't actually been shown mind controlling people outside of super contracts after all, and does seem to have... issues with the MK happy GMTTA.
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Re: Is Erfworld winnable?

Postby Lamech » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:13 pm

No one in particular wrote:Upon reflection, the more appropriate question to ask isn't "how can one win within the rules?" but "did the Titan's design the game to be winnable?"

I believe the answer to that question is "no". I think that the titan's designed Erfworld to be unwinnable. However, I believe it is winnable, for a certain definition of win. (Namely the elimination of all other sides.) Now a more complicated question would be if you could have a side with a non-0 chance of existing eternally. Tetris for example is unwinnable by that definition. Eventually you will get a crap array of blocks, that will ensure you have no possible method to not lose. Since the chance of that is finite and very small, but constant as time goes to infinity the chance of the game going on goes to 0.

Similarly, with random popping of wild units you will probably always have a chance of side failure. A billion dwagons pop every turn for ten thousand turns. However like Tetris that is unlikely. Now the interesting thing is if that becomes increasingly unlikely. If the chance of side failure decreases fast enough you can end up with a side having a non-zero chance of existing as time goes to infinity. If you got an increasingly high ceiling in tetris a perfect player could have a non-zero chance of never losing even as time went towards infinity. What if the same happens in Erfworld? Perhaps constant training could decrease the chance of side failure? For example, if each level added on to every unit decreases the chance of side failure by 90%, and doubles the time taken to the next level you could have a side that never fails.

tl;dr: Its was probably not intended to end with one world side. It is probably possible to get one world side. It may or may not be possible to get one world side existing forever depending on exact numbers.
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