Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby bpzinn » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:00 pm

0beron wrote:Congrats, you found exactly the evidence I'm talking about. They lose their individuality exactly like I told you, and instead are referred to as....oh what's that? THE NAME OF THEIR DISCIPLINE. Not "caster", not "hey you", but a very specific label that expresses their capabilities. Now stop being a contrarian dick just because I didn't feel like holding your hand through the process of proving I was right.


We both had the same starting facts, and came to differing conclusions. You have an opinion, that is all. One that will be likely be unproven until a multi discipline caster is shown in comic to have tried to contribute different disciplines to a linkup, and his success or failure is known. Until then, kindly stop committing the logical fallacy of assuming absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

But feel free to bet against me if you think you are correct. I have posted a relevant offer in the betting thread.

0beron wrote:Now stop being a contrarian dick just because I didn't feel like holding your hand through the process of proving I was right.


reported for violation of bullet one of forum rules. Also, this is just plain name calling.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:07 pm

For the record my post was directed to Lilwik, my bad for lack of clarity. As for your report, I'm pretty much dying laughing.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:12 pm

Also, I feel the need to point out that my opposition feels they can pick and choose their evidence to suit their argument. The Volcano Link was specifically mentioned and dismissed based solely on baseless speculation...which is curious seeing as its the most clear evidence and it supports my point....how strange...perhaps even...dickish? Which is exactly the point I was making by saying as much, pursuant to the very rule you're trying to laughably call me on.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby raphfrk » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:15 pm

0beron wrote:In Charlie's case however....there may be an exception. His primary is Carnymancy, and this is a 'Tool we're talking about, so the 'Dish itself might carry the load of the link as a Thinkamancer, rather than Charlie being the linker. (My belief is that Kingworld needed Carny & Turn, so that would support this idea). Now, it's just a question of whether the load-bearing of the 'Dish counts as a 3rd caster or not. If a link is only counting the real bodies/minds involved, then yeah you could get a link with Charlie that is Think + Carny + 2, while still only having 3 physical casters


Even if it is limited to 3 casters, the dish might allow 3 non-thinkamancers to form a link-up (Charlie + 2 others). This would give access to a large number of combinations that wouldn't be possible normally, though adds the restriction that one of them must be a carnymancer instead of one of them being a thinkamancer.

In the volcano linkup, Maggie didn't really add much anyway. With the table, she provided the comms portion of its functionality.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:23 pm

Yeah that's definitely a possibility as well.
raphfrk wrote:In the volcano linkup, Maggie didn't really add much anyway. With the table, she provided the comms portion of its functionality.
My reason for bringing up the volcano link is that in forming it, it was very clear that connecting to the sense of familiarity with their main discipline was required to establish the link. Hence very strong evidence that linked casters can only do 1 discipline (with the possible exception of Charlie thanks to the 'Dish)
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:04 pm

0beron wrote:The Volcano Link was specifically mentioned and dismissed based solely on baseless speculation...which is curious seeing as its the most clear evidence and it supports my point....
I agree that it is evidence that supports your point, the best and virtually the only evidence that there is in support of your point. I have no intention of dismissing it, only in pointing out that it is very far from proof. To show that something is not proof all you need is a bit of speculation. As in, "It's not proof of that because it could also mean this other thing."

The ultimate test for whether it has been proven would be what would happen if later in the story we have a link where a caster uses more than one discipline; would people expect retconjuration of the evidence that supposedly proves this was impossible? I doubt it. That evidence is really quite weak since all it shows is one way that a link can be set up. If there are other ways, that doesn't mean the volcano link needs to be retconjured.

And of course there is also weak contrary evidence. It occurs to me that in Book 1, Page 54 Sizemore said, "The caster's will is subsumed into a kind of a psychological alloy with the Thinkamancer." He didn't say "a piece of the caster's will." Sizemore makes it sound like everything that the caster is becomes dominated by the Thinkamancer, and if it were true that the caster were somehow diminished to a single discipline I would have expected Sizemore to mention it on that page while he was explaining links. It's weak evidence, but strong evidence on this subject doesn't exist for either side; that's why we shouldn't draw any conclusion until we know more about Thinkamancy.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:23 pm

Ah ok, I must have misunderstood your post regarding the volcano link.

However, I feel that we have to take the volcano link at face value and view it as very solid evidence that they revert to their primary discipline, for story-telling reasons. Remember that this is a comic, and the world operates by gaming rules. Rob simply doesn't have the time to show us things multiple times, so seeing something once has to constitute proof. Since we see Maggie explaining aloud the magical/thought process of forming a link, that tells us this is the way links work.

Also consider some fringe evidence. Wanda doesn't mention practicing other schools when she linked during her Haffaton time. She tells us in detail that linking with the Dirtamancer gave her some insights that allowed her to learn it after the fact...but she doesn't say that she was able to practice it by linking. If Maxwell liked linking so much, and using other disciplines was possible in a link, Wanda shoulda been doing it left and right to learn. It's definitely a bit circumstantial, but it's something to consider if you're not happy with my meta-thinking above.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:41 pm

0beron wrote:Wanda doesn't mention practicing other schools when she linked during her Haffaton time.
Actually, when I read between the lines in Book 0, Episode 54, I've always felt that Wanda was saying exactly that. Unfortunately we missed the start of what Wanda said that might have proven it.

Wanda said, "-involved in its construction. But I don't remember enough from the link-up." Reading between the lines, Wanda might be saying that she helped make the box in a link. I've always felt that the box's connection to Croakamancy was tenuous, so it raises the question in my mind: Was Wanda acting as a Croakamancer in that link? Maybe, maybe not, but look at what she said shortly after: "That is what I am telling you. I am what I am needed to be." So Wanda said something about casting in disciplines other that Croakamancy in the part of the conversation that we missed. If Jillian hadn't been out of her mind on a heroine bud, who knows what interesting facts might have been revealed.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:53 pm

I think that's reaching. Tina was a Turnamancer, and Wanda is talking about Turnamancy. Based on the function of the box, plus the fact we know it was made by a link, seems very obvious it's a Turn/Croak item. Wanda knows enough Turnamancy to use it, but not make/repair it. And because they had Tina, Wanda's Turnamancy wouldn't have been required in the link.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:22 pm

0beron wrote:Based on the function of the box,
The function of the box as far as we know is torturing and turning people, not uncroaking.

0beron wrote:plus the fact we know it was made by a link,
That's only evidence if you start with the assumption that linking limits the caster's abilities to their primary discipline. If you don't assume that then the whole situation is turned around and it's actually evidence against the link limiting caster's abilities.

0beron wrote:seems very obvious it's a Turn/Croak item.
But it doesn't look like a Turn/Croak item. It allows the operator to have a sense of the victim's body something like what Croakamancy gives Wanda, but it also does things like taking away the victim's sight which we know is a Lookamancy trick, making the victim hungry, and sustaining the victim without need to eat or use a latrine, and I presume we never even saw everything the box could do. It looks like the box is a combination of Turnamancy and ton of various tricks from an unknown number of other disciplines, which makes perfect sense for a Tina/Wanda link.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:32 pm

Lilwik wrote:The function of the box as far as we know is torturing and turning people, not uncroaking.
And who ever said croakamancy was limited to uncroaking? Wanda has been shown to possess a sense for anatomy, and also tri-links deal with obscure concepts. What the box does can easily be described as producing more effective Turnamancy by affecting the body in ways Turnamancy would not otherwise be capable of, or delivering pain where it is most debilitating.

Lilwik wrote:[The box being made by a link is actually evidence against limited casting]
....wut? Please re-read what you're saying because it makes zero sense. We know the box was made by a link of Wanda, Maxwell, and Tina. If Wanda was capable of doing the Turnamancy, then why even involve Tina? Or conversely, if the box doesn't use Croakamancy, then why involve Wanda? You're extrapolating way too far and it's just not logical.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Sir Shadow » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:33 pm

Actually... when you put it that way, it seems like the box turns whoever is inside into some kind of psuedo uncroaked.

Also, it's been stated that Croakamancy also governs some limited uses of Shockamancy, so take that as you will /shrug.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:06 pm

0beron wrote:We know the box was made by a link of Wanda, Maxwell, and Tina. If Wanda was capable of doing the Turnamancy, then why even involve Tina? Or conversely, if the box doesn't use Croakamancy, then why involve Wanda?
Links expand the powers of casters far enough for them to regret the lost of the abilities after the link is broken. Jack even called it an ache in Summer Update 38: "The terrible feeling that you've lost some grand, Titanic capability you can no longer grasp." Plus, it's not just giving the caster knowledge of another discipline; it's giving the caster increased mental capacity and clarity from having more than one mind to think with, the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. We know that from Summer Update 26 where Sizemore talks about the advantage of being in a link even with just Maggie and himself: "It's utterly fascinating, casting from a link. I just...understand the spell so clearly."

I think there's a good chance that no one caster could have created the box, even if that caster were a master of all relevant disciplines, simply because a single mind doesn't have sufficient mental capacity for the job. Or maybe not, but at least it's a plausible answer to your question, since there's no doubt that Wanda was capable of doing Turnamancy.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby 0beron » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:21 pm

What Sizemore is referring to is the fact that Maggie made their collective minds more organized, as is the primary purpose of a Thinkamancer in a bi-link. And what Jack is talking about is briefly understanding all of Eyemancy in ways he couldn't on his own, because there were other minds present who knew it. Neither of these suggests that there is any reason or benefit to include a caster in a link when their discipline isn't being used. Tina wouldn't get any benefit beyond what Maxwell could do for her with organization, because she understands Turnamancy better than Wanda. So the only reason to bring Wanda in would be because they needed insights a Croakamancer could provide.
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GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby ftl » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:39 pm

0beron wrote:So the only reason to bring Wanda in would be because they needed insights a Croakamancer could provide.


Or, if they need insights that Wanda could provide, even if they weren't croakamantic insights. Remember, Wanda's always been interested in disciplines beyond just croakamancy. She could have contributed all that other knowledge to the link.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:58 pm

ftl wrote:
0beron wrote:So the only reason to bring Wanda in would be because they needed insights a Croakamancer could provide.


Or, if they need insights that Wanda could provide, even if they weren't croakamantic insights. Remember, Wanda's always been interested in disciplines beyond just croakamancy. She could have contributed all that other knowledge to the link.


I guess, except the box is pretty clearly a Turnamancy/Croakamancy item.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Balerion » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:41 pm

Got a lot more response than I had anticipated :)

I'm going to have to disagree with you 0beron; I don't see compelling evidence that casters are reduced to a single discipline in a linkup. The two main pieces of evidence you present are 1) being referred to by their discipline names and 2) Maggie's intro speech.

With regards to 1, we've seen plenty of other cases where a caster is referred to by discipline. [url href=http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2010-11-13.jpg]See Slately here talking to Ace[/url]. The starting discipline of a caster is something fundamental to them, due to the knowledge of the discipline they are simply popped with, and referring to one by discipline doesn't seem different from calling a light infantry 'piker'.

With regards to 2, I'll admit the evidence is a bit stronger. But it would see a perfectly valid reading that what Maggie primarily seems to be aiming for is putting Sizemore and Wanda into a state of mind that made it easier for them to be brought into the link. And at the same time, Maggie might not even know how to perform a link that brings in knowledge from another discipline; she isn't a Master level thinkamancer is my memory. So simply because she aimed at turning them into their disciplines doesn't mean that is the limit of what can be done.

I also find it odd that a melding of minds would somehow exclude information an individual has; if the three become one, what happens to the memories/skills that aren't included in that one? It feels like reducing a caster to just their discipline in a link up is the position with the burden of proof here to me, since it adds an extra restriction, but that is of course my opinion :). Regardless of which side has the burden of proof, I don't think we have the evidence to make a call either way right now.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby GWvsJohn » Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:53 am

If you want to disprove something that has strong evidence in the comic, feel free to try. There is absolute zero evidence that a linked caster can do anything other than their primary discipline. Being reduced to their primary discipline seems completely consistent with descriptions of links. The non-Thinkamancer always talks about loss of self, etc.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lilwik » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:34 am

GWvsJohn wrote:If you want to disprove something that has strong evidence in the comic, feel free to try.
I can't find the strong evidence anywhere I try to look for it, but even so I don't think it can be disproved. We simply don't know enough about Thinkamancy to know one way or the other.

GWvsJohn wrote:There is absolute zero evidence that a linked caster can do anything other than their primary discipline.
In Book 0, Episode 54 there is suggestion that Wanda and Tina were linked when they created the box and the box's abilities clearly include blindness. Then in Episode 63 we have Orwell the Lookamancer casting blindness on Jillian. Certainly it's possible for a caster to cast outside his primary discipline, so it's possible for the blindness to be a bit of Croakamancy that Orwell learned somewhere. Really if you want to hold that Wanda couldn't have used Lookamancy in the link when she was creating the box then you have no choice but to hold that Orwell was using Croakamancy or Turnamancy when he blinded Jillian. Considering Lookamancy's natural connection to sight, that seems highly unlikely. It's not proof, but it's certainly more than nothing.

GWvsJohn wrote:Being reduced to their primary discipline seems completely consistent with descriptions of links.
I agreed. I believe nothing has ever been said about links that proves casters can use non-primary disciplines. The evidence for that is entirely circumstantial and weak. We can only hope that someday something is revealed that clearly settles the matter.
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Re: Can charlie do a 4 way linkup?

Postby Lipkin » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:22 am

Since Croakamancy deals with primarily the body, it's not much of a stretch to say the box used croakamancy to cause Jillian's eyes to stop working, while Orwell's Lookamancy caused Jillian to see only blackness.
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