Retconjurors in Erfworld.

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Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby randomthought » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:52 pm

It seems to me that everyone is talking about how retconjurors can't be in erfworld because they would be over powered and whoever got one would be unstoppable. But they don't have to be. They could be sent from the titans only rarely, and be one trick ponies. Maybe one person ended every turn praying to the titans, and when he is about to be defeated a reconjuror pops in his last city. They only go back in time once, and only one person can go. It must be before the reconjuror popped so they don't go back with the person, and they only can use the spell once. They can't level. The person sent back goes to where ever they were at the time they choose to go back too, only with their memories of the future.

Still powerful, but too powerful? I think it could work, make an interesting plot twist.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby No one in particular » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:58 pm

My personal theory is that there is only ONE Retconjurer in Erfworld, and that's Bogroll.

The Word of Rob, however, says "This is a theoretical branch of magic, like an undiscovered element on the periodical table. No ordinary caster can practice it; there are no Retconjurers in Erfworld. It is reserved for the Titans. And I can tell you, they don't like it much and use it as seldom as possible." (citation)

So, yeah, there ya go.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby mantimeforgot » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:51 am

I understand the reasoning in the cited text, but it seems to me that the placement in the periodic table of magics is all wrong for Retconjuration. If this form of magic really is a reality altering set of magicks, then it honestly belongs in the Stagemancy group of magicks (they have all three elements: Erf, Fate, and Numbers) and when you do that you can shift Carnymancy into Naughtymancy and therein make the comment about Naughtymancy and Carnymancy both being about "Breaking the rules" within the body of work make more sense.

And given the authors stated intent I don't think anyone other than Parson has any chance of becoming a Retconjuror.

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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:57 am

If Word of the Titans says it is an impossible magic for Erflings to practice, then it's impossible for Erflings to practice. Period.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Lamech » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:30 pm

0beron wrote:If Word of the Titans says it is an impossible magic for Erflings to practice, then it's impossible for Erflings to practice. Period.

Which one might think is a problem until you realize with enough worshippers you can ascend to Titan-hood. Now you might think that isn't how Titan-hood works, however, as a Titan you can simply retconjurer it to work that way. Thereby allowing your plan to work.

It also occurs to me that a Arkentool might pull it off. Reserved for the Titans (in world) doesn't mean they did a good job of properly reserving it.


Personally here would be my take on retconjuruers:
King: Man I wish I had a retconjurer, he could have made me plant gardens earlier and solve all my problems
Retconjurer Tim: *Pops* You need me right?
King: Yeah, I should have planted gardens long ago. Can you fix that?
Retconjurer Tim: Sure!
King: Great!
New Timeline:
King: Man, I'm really glad I planted these massive gardens. Man I wish I had a dirtamancer too to make the gardens even better!
Dirtamancer Tim: *Pops* You need me right?
King: Yeah, we need better soil quality.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby 0beron » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:29 pm

...."Word of the Titans" refers to canon-ized statements made by the comic creators, there isn't an actual crossover to in-universe. Put in normal langauge, Rob said Retconjuration is something only he can use. Is that a more satisfactory explanation?
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Housellama » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Let me put a slightly different spin on this. We know magic comes in several flavors. Two in particular are Natural and Erfling-Made. Erfling-Made requires a Caster of the appropriate type. Just because there are no Retconjurors in Erfworld doesn't mean that there is no Natural Retconjuroration. Retconjuration exists, at least in theory. Erfworlders know about Retconjuration, again, at least in theory. Word of the Titans says no Retconjurors. Fine. But Natural Retconjuration happens every time Rob needs to change something.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby MarbitChow » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:14 pm

The whole existence of Retconjuration is just a meta-joke. Deletionism was deleted so that Retconjuration could be Retconjured in. There is absolutely nothing more to it that that. :D
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby 0beron » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:15 am

What Marbit said.
"I'm afraid I don't understand. And also afraid that I do."
GJC wrote:Two guys with basically the same name in a discussion about a character getting cloned.
There's gotta be a good joke in here somewhere.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby mantimeforgot » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:22 am

MarbitChow wrote:The whole existence of Retconjuration is just a meta-joke. Deletionism was deleted so that Retconjuration could be Retconjured in. There is absolutely nothing more to it that that. :D



Inasmuch as I agree with the sentiment... Why would Parson bother to ask about and then include on his list of things worth knowing about (regarding magic) a "school of magic" that according to the people in Erf World does not exist at all? I 100% agree that for the time being it is little more than a placeholder, but that is not the same as saying that at no point in the future will it become a part of the plot.

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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby MarbitChow » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:41 am

It can't be part of the plot. By its very nature, anything that has ever been Retconjured in Erfworld has already been done. Retconjuration is like String Theory - they THINK it exists, but can't really prove it yet, and no one knows how to do anything with it.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby drachefly » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:42 am

It's not like string theory, in that in principle you could do experiments that would disprove string theory. We even know what some of them are - establishing that the universe is not supersymmetric would do it - and, though it looks like it's going to be a while before we get anything more specific, the theory can definitely be elaborated to the point where it's falsifiable.

With Retconjuration, it's not at all clear that such a thing is possible.

All that said, since it's there, I suspect it sometimes leaves noticeable traces when it occurs naturally.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Lamech » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:45 am

MarbitChow wrote:It can't be part of the plot. By its very nature, anything that has ever been Retconjured in Erfworld has already been done. Retconjuration is like String Theory - they THINK it exists, but can't really prove it yet, and no one knows how to do anything with it.

You clearly aren't thinking with time travel.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:37 am

You're not grokking what Retconjuration is. It's not Time Travel - someone doesn't go back in time and change the past so that the events never happen. The events just never happened in the first place. Bogroll always had Fabricate. Judy was never named Dorothy. Deletionism was never a school.

We, god-like beings that we are, can go back in time by rereading the books from start to finish, although as observers we can't change events. Replay the chronology over and over again - the events you THINK were Retconjured never occurred in the first place. Each replay of the time line is exactly the same.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Housellama » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:48 pm

MarbitChow wrote:You're not grokking what Retconjuration is. It's not Time Travel - someone doesn't go back in time and change the past so that the events never happen. The events just never happened in the first place. Bogroll always had Fabricate. Judy was never named Dorothy. Deletionism was never a school.

We, god-like beings that we are, can go back in time by rereading the books from start to finish, although as observers we can't change events. Replay the chronology over and over again - the events you THINK were Retconjured never occurred in the first place. Each replay of the time line is exactly the same.


This. The 'old-school' readers know that Deletionism used to be a school because we remember seeing it. Old school readers remember seeing Bogroll having Regeneration. New readers? Don't see that. People who buy the book? Don't read that. If you go back and read the archives, they don't exist anymore. We Readers exist outside canon. That's the only reason we can remember them. As far as Erfworlders are concerned, as far as canon goes? They never happened.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Lamech » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:53 pm

MarbitChow wrote:You're not grokking what Retconjuration is. It's not Time Travel - someone doesn't go back in time and change the past so that the events never happen. The events just never happened in the first place. Bogroll always had Fabricate. Judy was never named Dorothy. Deletionism was never a school.

We, god-like beings that we are, can go back in time by rereading the books from start to finish, although as observers we can't change events. Replay the chronology over and over again - the events you THINK were Retconjured never occurred in the first place. Each replay of the time line is exactly the same.

Yeah, just like time travel. There is no "alternate time line" it never happened. There's some theoretical "what would have happened" had a time traveller not popped in. Sure you aren't sending a person back, but that's an fairly minor feature of any sort of time travel.

Now it can't really be part of the plot if its reserved for the Titans-the-Authors, but it can work if the Titans-the-Characters can use it.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby mantimeforgot » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:27 am

Lamech wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:You're not grokking what Retconjuration is. It's not Time Travel - someone doesn't go back in time and change the past so that the events never happen. The events just never happened in the first place. Bogroll always had Fabricate. Judy was never named Dorothy. Deletionism was never a school.

We, god-like beings that we are, can go back in time by rereading the books from start to finish, although as observers we can't change events. Replay the chronology over and over again - the events you THINK were Retconjured never occurred in the first place. Each replay of the time line is exactly the same.

Yeah, just like time travel. There is no "alternate time line" it never happened. There's some theoretical "what would have happened" had a time traveller not popped in. Sure you aren't sending a person back, but that's an fairly minor feature of any sort of time travel.

Now it can't really be part of the plot if its reserved for the Titans-the-Authors, but it can work if the Titans-the-Characters can use it.



Exactly,

The quote used to deny Retconjuration states Explicitly that Erfly beings cannot use Retconjuration, but Parson is definitionally not from Erf and therefore does not qualify. So if Parson becomes a Titan or acts as a Titan Proxy (agent, avatar, etc) then he most certainly could utilize some effect from the Retconjuration field (I tend to assume any reality altering effects of a cosmic or meta-nature belong to Retconjuration), and Parson has shown that he can overcome certain "reality based limitations" vis-a-vis the ability to swear.

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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby Nnelg » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:55 am

Word of Rob says no Retconjuration. End of story.


I don't see why there's still argument over this. We've already established it's never going to come up in the comic, so why debate the hypothetical edge cases?
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby drachefly » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:05 am

Nnelg wrote:Word of Rob says no Retconjuration. End of story.


No, look at the quote again. Rob says no Retconjurors. We have ample evidence of natural magic.
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Re: Retconjurors in Erfworld.

Postby MarbitChow » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:28 am

I love these forums. Even in cases where the author has definitively stated something, we still argue against it. :D

Retconjuration means EDITING the text after it was first published. Rich B. sort-of did this in the story when he had his main characters steal a diamond that existed in a previous panel, but he completely broke the 4th wall to do so. Rich has broken the 4th wall on a number of occasions for its humor value. Rob never has, nor do I ever expect him to.

The only 'natural' retconjuration is when Rob does it. We've already seen examples of these - Bogroll, Dorothy. Erfworlders are STILL unaware of them. The story never calls attention to it. Natural retconjuration has already occurred, and there's no evidence of it in the story, although we can find proof of it after the fact thanks to Rob's own words.
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