Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby kwotski » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:36 am

Hi,

A tangential point, which I guess most readers are probably aware of, but I haven't seen it noted here. The association between the Arkenhammer and lightning might well be derived from or related to another magical hammer - Thor's hammer Mjollnir, which is traditionally associated with thunder and lightning.

Just to be explicit, this doesn't affect the Great Shockamancy Debate one way or the other, just thought I'd throw it in the mix ;-)
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:24 am

Adding that to the Wiki.

[Edit] Studied a little before putting it in. The hammer never had power to create lightning: it was owned by a god that had that power. Still, good reference.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:47 pm

kwotski wrote:Hi,

A tangential point, which I guess most readers are probably aware of, but I haven't seen it noted here. The association between the Arkenhammer and lightning might well be derived from or related to another magical hammer - Thor's hammer Mjollnir, which is traditionally associated with thunder and lightning.

Just to be explicit, this doesn't affect the Great Shockamancy Debate one way or the other, just thought I'd throw it in the mix ;-)

Excellent point.

At the end of the day, I still think that either carnymancy or changemancy are significantly likelier candidates—by far—than shockmancy.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Housellama » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:26 pm

Another point for the Carneymancy side of things (which I am personally for)... One of the things that is stereotypically shown in carnivals is the strong man game where you hit a plunger with a hammer to try to ring a bell. Some may call it a long-shot, but hammer-sound for the carnival plus squeaky hammer (hit it and it makes a sound)... *shrugs*
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby DevilDan » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:15 pm

Housellama wrote:Another point for the Carneymancy side of things (which I am personally for)... One of the things that is stereotypically shown in carnivals is the strong man game where you hit a plunger with a hammer to try to ring a bell. Some may call it a long-shot, but hammer-sound for the carnival plus squeaky hammer (hit it and it makes a sound)... *shrugs*


The hammer seems precisely patterned after the sort of toys (plastic hammer with flexible head that squeaks or whistles when something is hit with it) that are given away as carnival prizes.

Despite some of the silly arguments used by some to argue for changeamancy, I think that it's about as good a candidate as Carnymancy, though.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Anton Gaist » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:38 pm

Housellama wrote:Another point for the Carneymancy side of things (which I am personally for)... One of the things that is stereotypically shown in carnivals is the strong man game where you hit a plunger with a hammer to try to ring a bell. Some may call it a long-shot, but hammer-sound for the carnival plus squeaky hammer (hit it and it makes a sound)... *shrugs*


Sounds convincing. Until the nature of the Arkentools and the remaining Disciplines are officially explained or at least we get more info, I agree with it being Carneymancy.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Kreistor » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:12 pm

And the pliers relate to our dead how?

For that trend to be an indicator, it must hold for all Tools.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:56 pm

Only if what's true for one Tool holds true for all Tools. I know a lot of people are banking on that - the Fate Magic crowd, f'rinstance - but it's not a sure thing. To my eye, anything you can find that applies to the pliers and dish, so far, does Not apply to the hammer (at least in any concrete way)

all we know to be true of all three Tools is that they are indestructible, and have been attuned to by one person (that we know of).
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby moose o death » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:02 am

i've said it elsewhere, i'm probably not alone in saying it here, why does the tool need to have any allignment? it's just as likely it boosts the latent talents of any unit popped with an arkentool attunable stat. there are hidden stats for loyalty duty etc. why not attuned abilities?

so far we know, only certain people can attune to tools
casters and warlords qualify
we have two confirmed cases of a tool not attuning. ansom and the RCC troop that later collects the arkenpliers after his death.
so being a royal, or a troop may disqualify you OR it may be a stat based thing.

so far it seems to me from an computer based rpg background, and this is a character upgrade not an army upgrade, that you must have the abilities to equip the item. stanley is an upgraded pikeman. so it's probably little to nothing to do with magic

however, sizemore has little aptitude for casting outside his role, yet wanda has quite a far bit of wiggle room but doesn't care to use it. it seems you can have capacity for magic skills outside your official school. if this were the case the arkentools may be used to unlock your latent abilities.

maybe predicatamancer's see more stats than overlords can and basicaly do cold readings for the warlords. it would certainly be easier to "predict" a unit's disloyalty if you can read the likelihood from an inch above their heads. the faq predictamancer looked at wanda and saw "Decroak (Arkentool)" under special and just waited for a good time to mention wanda would one day attune. wanda asked how . predicta,mancer said it can't happen here. wanda starts to plot. predictamancer takes betrayal stat, and akentool stat to overlord and says his kingdoms is stuffed better get an heir.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Maldeus » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:19 pm

The Predictamancer might have had the decency to mention it was Wanda what was going to stuff it if s/he knew as much.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Kreistor » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:30 pm

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:Only if what's true for one Tool holds true for all Tools.


That is the rub, isn't it? There's no statement that demands there has to be an associated Discipline to all Arkentools, is there?

And, yes, in this case, I would demand that if the associated Discipline were to be chosen based on the appearance of theeffects it generates (as is the case with the Dish and Pliers), then it would be chosen based on the appearance of effects in the other cases, not on the appearance of the Tool itself.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:36 pm

Currently I'm leaning toward the hammer not having an associated discipline. It's the easiest solution, and makes sense for the Tool of a non-caster.

I base this on the observed effects and their apparent lack of commonality. I still think the lightning isn't Shockmancy, but it doesn't really matter to me because of the above.

I would also suggest that given the opportunity to make a sight gag/reference to its discipline (if it has one) once or not at all, that they might choose to do it once because it's cool/funny, and just not worry about the other Tools not working the same way.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby moose o death » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:45 pm

Maldeus wrote:The Predictamancer might have had the decency to mention it was Wanda what was going to stuff it if s/he knew as much.

that caster presuambly did know but had alternative motives. i reckon it's safe to assume when stanley rolled through with a flock of dwagons that caster was sitting in the magic kingdom sucking down a few beers and feeling like a job well done.

if you "predict" the future as a job, it's in your interests to be correct as often as possible. if that means tipping the scales in your favour, so be it. i don't think there was a single unit in FAQ with loyalty to it's king at all. wanda betrayed faq, jillian defied faq orders, the predictamancer seemingly did nothing to prevent and plausibly orchestrated the downfall. even jack seems more loyal to stanley than his rightful ruler, jillian.

this is why i'm so keen to find out more about FAQ, but jillian's going the other way. either way this is neither here nor there, the discussion is about arkentool attunement and i've thrown my hat into the arena already. i'll happily discuss that further but can we drop this particular topic in this thread? we can talk that out elsewhere if needed.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Anton Gaist » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:57 am

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:To my eye, anything you can find that applies to the pliers and dish, so far, does Not apply to the hammer (at least in any concrete way)


There is one thing, they all appear to have real life references related to their wielders. So maybe the Tool (hammer, dish, pliers, shovel(?))wasn't meant to reflect the Discipline (if any, I can't be sure) but the "destined" wielder.

Why the hammer looks like a squeaky toy is what keeps throwing me off.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby moose o death » Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:29 am

because it was there from the cutesy start. it looks like a hammer babies get.

i thnk there is quite a few holdovers from the first 50 pages that might be discarded as teething issues while the series started up. eg erfworlder height and dimensions. only stanley really remains that short. for the most part everything is short but human proportions now, earlier it was giant heads.

initially they may have been planning on using a bunch of fisher~price style tools, and eventually decided regular tools would be just as effective and less trouble to make. this assumes jamie is modelling the tools and not just licensing a model for importing to photochop . if it's licensed then the fourth arkentool could look like anything.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Kreistor » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:26 pm

Anton Gaist wrote:Why the hammer looks like a squeaky toy is what keeps throwing me off.


Humor trumps rules.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Kreistor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:57 am

BTW, I have completely rewritten the pages in question. I have given equal time to Shockmancy, Carnymancy, and Changemancy, and removed any favoritism.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby DevilDan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:48 pm

moose o death wrote:
Maldeus wrote:The Predictamancer might have had the decency to mention it was Wanda what was going to stuff it if s/he knew as much.

that caster presuambly did know but had alternative motives. i reckon it's safe to assume when stanley rolled through with a flock of dwagons that caster was sitting in the magic kingdom sucking down a few beers and feeling like a job well done.

if you "predict" the future as a job, it's in your interests to be correct as often as possible. if that means tipping the scales in your favour, so be it. i don't think there was a single unit in FAQ with loyalty to it's king at all. wanda betrayed faq, jillian defied faq orders, the predictamancer seemingly did nothing to prevent and plausibly orchestrated the downfall. even jack seems more loyal to stanley than his rightful ruler, jillian.

this is why i'm so keen to find out more about FAQ, but jillian's going the other way. either way this is neither here nor there, the discussion is about arkentool attunement and i've thrown my hat into the arena already. i'll happily discuss that further but can we drop this particular topic in this thread? we can talk that out elsewhere if needed.


Predictamancy might not be an all-or-nothing skill. The predictamancer did warn Banhammer that Faq would fall, but that may have been the extent of the useful information that he could glean. Maybe all he got was a single image of Faq abandoned or razed.

To us, Wanda's approach to "Fate" is peculiar. A predictamancers philosophy and actions might be similarly influenced, if not more so.

I did give a nod to my own thoughts about tool attunement earlier:
I was never happy with the assumption that an arkentool is only associated with a single magic, but we don't quite have evidence to the contrary and people mostly seem comfortable with that assumption. At the moment, it certainly seems that the 'pliers and 'dish have a significant relationship to a single type of magic (both Fate magics, just as Carnymancy is a fate magic).


To reiterate, the 'pliers seemed to display croakamancy-related powers in the hands of both Ansom and now seem to do the same in the hands of Wanda.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby DevilDan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:55 am

I think we haven't explored a few other potential problems with Shockmancy.

One, Shockmancy is a Naughtymancy, which to me always suggested "dark arts." This fits the other two naughtymancies, croakamancy and the ominous-sounding Deletionism.

Two, Shockmancy isn't a Fate magic. Yes, I know that it's not canon that the 'tools must be aligned to a Fate magic (just as it's not canon that the 'tools have any alignment whatsoever to a magic discipline, perhaps rendering all this discussion ill-advised...), but we do know that the two other tools grant powers seemingly focused on Fate magics and that Fate magic is strongly tied to the arkentools, as mentioned by both Ansom and Wanda.
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Re: Shockmancy and the arkenhammer

Postby Erk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:12 pm

I'd be more inclined to think that the tools all offer a wide variety of powers. Just as the hammer can be used in combat, can enable flight, can tame dwagons, and can turn walnuts into pigeons, I think the pliers can be used for much more than dusting uncroaked and decrypting - Wanda has likely only scratched the surface of their powers, as she's only had them for a turn or two. Further, Charlie has immense thinkamancy, but he also has the ability to spawn or tame Archons, which is only cursorily associated. He almost certainly has some other abilities as well: he's the type to play his cards as close to the chest as he can, and he'd not reveal even this much unless he could hold a great deal more in reserve.

So, if they are associated with any specific magic at all, I'd expect them to be whole axes: the pliers, for example, are probably not croakamancy, but naughtymancy. The dish, in keeping with both its appearance and Charlie's excellent intelligence, would be eyemancy. However, I'm inclined to think they're like any magical artifacts: full of interesting powers, themed to a given area, but not aligned with a school of magic. The Arkenhammer is essentially the Hammer of Thor.
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