Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Geisthund » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:53 pm

Is it possible to decrypt decrypted units that die in battle?

The reason I ask this is because of the apparent brokenness of the Wanda + Arkenplier unit power. Wanda was able to decrypt thousands of units in a single turn, including heavies and archons.

If the decrypted archons can be decrypted again once they die, taking over Erfworld will be relatively straightforward. Use a decrypted army to attack a city/side, with the main aim of breaching the gates regardless of losses to own side's units (as long as army doesn't get wiped out before start of next turn). Mass decrypt next turn. Rinse, repeat. Result: roving decrypted army with almost linear growth in size.

Stanley can even raze the captured cities, since he does not need resources: Decrypted units have zero upkeep. This way, he doesn't need to worry about other sides recapturing the city. Stanley can amass a very large army extremely quickly, while dealing heavy blows to other sides by reducing their resources, city by city.

GK can be defended by "traditional" units that require upkeep, such as dwagons, spidews and gobwins, removing the need for Wanda to be in two places at once.

One possible way for the authors to address this imbalance in power is to disallow decrypting units that have previously been decrypted. In fact, I don't really see any other way to prevent the "abuse" of this power.
Geisthund
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Kreistor » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:14 pm

We haven't seen a decrypted die yet.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Geisthund » Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:42 pm

Doesn't mean we can't speculate about game mechanics surrounding decrypting.

Besides, a min-maxer like Parson would definitely have tested this out by now.
Geisthund
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:20 pm

I'm more interested in what happens if you decrypt an uncroaked.

i.e. Jaclyn croaks, is uncroaked, and is re-croaked - can she then be decrypted? If so, is she a copy of her original self or her uncroaked self?

Can an uncroaked, being already croaked, be decrypted directly, without the "croaked" stage in between?
I am a: Chaotic Neutral Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
Str- 12, Dex- 15, Con- 12, Int- 14, Wis- 11, Cha- 13
Cmdr I. Heartly Noah
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Doktor Jones » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:31 am

I don't see infinite decrypting as a possibility... perhaps, since decrypted units are almost exactly like their original selves, once re-croaked they can be uncroaked once more. Just my speculation anyways ;)
User avatar
Doktor Jones
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:01 am

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Kreistor » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:44 am

I went looking and never found the corpse of an uncroaked. I only found dusted uncroaked. If someone knows of a scene where an uncroaked remains a corpse, tell me.

Add that to your list of possibilities: decrypted may turn to dust upon re-croaking, making them unavailable for even un-croaking.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Doktor Jones » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:08 am

Kreistor wrote:I went looking and never found the corpse of an uncroaked. I only found dusted uncroaked. If someone knows of a scene where an uncroaked remains a corpse, tell me.

Add that to your list of possibilities: decrypted may turn to dust upon re-croaking, making them unavailable for even un-croaking.


Good point, I do seem to recall uncroaked turning to dust upon croaking. Also, as I suggested, perhaps you can uncroak decrypted units, but once done, they behave as normal uncroaked. As such, they'd turn to dust upon croaking again.
User avatar
Doktor Jones
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:01 am

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby raphfrk » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:01 am

Geisthund wrote:If the decrypted archons can be decrypted again once they die, taking over Erfworld will be relatively straightforward. Use a decrypted army to attack a city/side, with the main aim of breaching the gates regardless of losses to own side's units (as long as army doesn't get wiped out before start of next turn). Mass decrypt next turn. Rinse, repeat. Result: roving decrypted army with almost linear growth in size.


This puts Wanda at risk all the time. This can be mitigate it by having Wanda wait in a safe location (like a nearby city) and be transported to the hex that battle was in by a high speed unit (but only after the all hexes from the city to the battlefield hex are verified as safe).

There is still the risk of ambush as she is moving through a hex by forces hidden by a foolamancer (She would have to follow a random path from the safe location to the target hex). However, ambush suffers from the problem that units can retreat if it is their turn. Perhaps there is some magic field that can prevent retreat.

One possible way for the authors to address this imbalance in power is to disallow decrypting units that have previously been decrypted. In fact, I don't really see any other way to prevent the "abuse" of this power.


Uncroaked cannot be re-uncroaked, so the same rule might apply to decrypted.

Doktor Jones wrote:I don't see infinite decrypting as a possibility... perhaps, since decrypted units are almost exactly like their original selves, once re-croaked they can be uncroaked once more. Just my speculation anyways ;)


Another possibility is that there are ways to render a unit not uncroakable and assuming that if a corpse can be uncroaked, it can be decrypted.

Bogroll wasn't decryptable even once, so burning counts as one method.

So, if you were fighting Wanda's forces, then you would need to kill enemy units in a way that doesn't allow them to be decrypted. Also, you need to have your units make sure that they die in a way that is not decryptable.

If there are units that can act as flame-throwers, then it would be worth having them target all corpses (on both sides) and set them on fire, rather than engage the enemy.

In effect, you would have the policy that a unit doesn't count as croaked unless it is burned.

There may be other ways, for example, if you cut off a corpse's limbs, it may not be possible to decrypt (or at least the unit would be pretty useless).

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:Can an uncroaked, being already croaked, be decrypted directly, without the "croaked" stage in between?


Good question. If uncroaked are just animiated corpses, then maybe they can be directly targetted.

This would be pretty useful if it worked on enemy units. A side which fields uncroaked could see those units switch sides without having to be "re-croaked", and also they would be converted back into full strength units.

An additional benefit would be that units could be uncroaked as a way of storing them for Wanda. If GK popped or captured a croakamancer, the croakamancer could uncroak all the units who died in a battle, giving Wanda time to get there. Ofc, the mass-uncroak spell was defined as requiring a master class croakamancer, so they would probably have to capture one.
raphfrk
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Maldeus » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:20 pm

Parson would not have tested out whether or not recroaked decrypted units can be decrypted again or uncroaked, because decrypted units are sentient. Parson is a min-maxer, but he's not a Nazi scientist (Nazi science sneers at your min-maxing!). Also, I doubt decrypted units can be decrypted again, but I wouldn't surprised if they can be uncroaked. Also, also, I think the only time we've seen an uncroaked get killed is when it was hit by the Arkenpliers, which have a bonus against uncroaked. Potentially the uncroaked are vaporized not by being recroaked, but by contact with the Arkenpliers.
Image
Maldeus
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:59 pm

It is specifically mentioned in the comic that the Arkenpliers "dust" most Uncroaked on contact (or somesuch).

It is up to interpretation whether this is special because a) Uncroaked normally don't turn into dust, or b) it usually takes multiple hits.
I am a: Chaotic Neutral Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
Str- 12, Dex- 15, Con- 12, Int- 14, Wis- 11, Cha- 13
Cmdr I. Heartly Noah
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Geisthund » Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:01 pm

Cmdr. I wrote:It is specifically mentioned in the comic that the Arkenpliers "dust" most Uncroaked on contact (or somesuch).

That's the impression I got too. Manpower wasn't dusted when he was headshotted by Jillian (although we never actually see the corpse). The only time we see uncroakeds dusted is when they were hit with the Arkenplier.

Regarding your question about decrypting uncroaked: "uncroaked" seems to be a unit type. They' have a unit-specific weakness against arkenpliers. Decrypting seems analogous to resurrecting (repopping) units. If uncroakeds are classified as "corpses" under Erfworld game mechanics, you might be able decrypt uncroaked units. However, corpses in Erfworld depop within one turn (instead of decomposing), so I doubt the game world considers uncroakeds to be corpses.

raphfrk wrote:Another possibility is that there are ways to render a unit not uncroakable and assuming that if a corpse can be uncroaked, it can be decrypted.

Bogroll wasn't decryptable even once, so burning counts as one method.

So, if you were fighting Wanda's forces, then you would need to kill enemy units in a way that doesn't allow them to be decrypted. Also, you need to have your units make sure that they die in a way that is not decryptable.

If there are units that can act as flame-throwers, then it would be worth having them target all corpses (on both sides) and set them on fire, rather than engage the enemy.

I don't think Bogroll wasn't decryptable because he was burned. Almost all coalition units died from burning during TPK event (at least all the Archons seemed to have died from burning, as shown in the comics). Bogroll's corpse was "torn apart" by coalition forces, preventing decrypting.

It's possible to make sure all croaked units are torn apart to prevent decrypting, if the defending side had time to do so. A swarming tactic could potentially take an enemy city within one turn, which will probably result in mostly decryptable corpses.

Maldeus wrote:Parson is a min-maxer, but he's not a Nazi scientist (Nazi science sneers at your min-maxing!)

Godwined in 9 posts ;)
Geisthund
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Kreistor » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:00 am

Can you actually show me an uncroaked's re-croaked corpse?
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Maldeus » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:07 am

Can Wanda be risked on the front lines? Isn't she the most valuable caster the Plaid Tribe has got? And if she can and is...How is anyone ever going to be a threat to Stanley, ever?
Image
Maldeus
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Darkside007 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:57 am

Kreistor wrote:Can you actually show me an uncroaked's re-croaked corpse?


The only corpses we've seen more than in passing are Ansom's and Misty's, and we've only seen RCC corpses otherwise.
User avatar
Darkside007
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 11:52 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Geisthund » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:45 am

Kreistor wrote:Can you actually show me an uncroaked's re-croaked corpse?

No. But in the comics, we see uncroakeds get 'dusted' only when they are hit with the arkenplier, as can be seen here:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/071.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/118.jpg
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/119.jpg

When the uncroaked warlord was croaked by Jillian, no dusting occurs:
http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/070.jpg

Note that all arkenplier dustings occur instantaneously. This didn't happen with Jillian's headshot. The most likely explanation is that uncroaked 'dusting' is an effect of the arkenplier.

Oh wait, the legs on panel 5 of this comic might've been an uncroaked (green skin color, definitely not a Knight): http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/129.jpg
Geisthund
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby raphfrk » Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:16 pm

Maldeus wrote:Can Wanda be risked on the front lines? Isn't she the most valuable caster the Plaid Tribe has got? And if she can and is...How is anyone ever going to be a threat to Stanley, ever?


The risk can be kept reasonably low.

- Have force wipe out enemy army
- Send Wanda under heavy escort to the battle field
- Have Wanda decrypt everything
- Return Wanda to safe location under escort

For even better protection, the corpses could be transported to the safe location (a city probably).

However, it is true that even risking her in a forward city (and subject to ambush) has the potential to result in her being croaked by a swift counter attack. She wouldn't be able to leave the city if an enemy force attacked in on their turn.

She needs to be very careful where she ends turn.
raphfrk
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 10:38 am

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Kreistor » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:27 pm

Geisthund wrote:Note that all arkenplier dustings occur instantaneously. This didn't happen with Jillian's headshot. The most likely explanation is that uncroaked 'dusting' is an effect of the arkenplier.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F071.jpg

Arkenpliers don't always dust on contact, either.

Oh wait, the legs on panel 5 of this comic might've been an uncroaked (green skin color, definitely not a Knight): http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/129.jpg


Those are legs? Well, maybe. Maybe they're a unit that tripped, too. Maybe a corpse, maybe legs, maybe not even an uncroaked.

Anyway, it's moot. Uncroaked can't be re-uncroaked, dusted or otherwise. Though decrypting is different from uncroaking in some ways, it's not in terms of Upkeep, or domination of the unit's activities. That a decrypted can be re-decrypted or uncroaked is at best a 50% possibility based on the current information... unlesss someone comes up with a third good theory, which would drop it to 33%. That means it's just opinion one way or the other right now. I'm dropping out of this one for the moment, until Rob posts some real evidence one way or the other. I suspect we'll have to wait until Decrypted begin re-croaking in Book 2... unless one dies by accident.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
User avatar
Kreistor
 
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:59 pm
Location: K-W, Ontario, Canada

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Darkside007 » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:42 am

Kreistor wrote:
Geisthund wrote:Note that all arkenplier dustings occur instantaneously. This didn't happen with Jillian's headshot. The most likely explanation is that uncroaked 'dusting' is an effect of the arkenplier.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F071.jpg

Arkenpliers don't always dust on contact, either.


In the very next panel, he's dusted. So yeah, uncroaked getting killed by pliers = dust.
User avatar
Darkside007
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 11:52 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:46 am

Darkside007 wrote:
Kreistor wrote:
Geisthund wrote:Note that all arkenplier dustings occur instantaneously. This didn't happen with Jillian's headshot. The most likely explanation is that uncroaked 'dusting' is an effect of the arkenplier.


http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F071.jpg

Arkenpliers don't always dust on contact, either.


In the very next panel, he's dusted. So yeah, uncroaked getting killed by pliers = dust.


Ansom's words: "They turn most Uncroaked to dust." Seems to indicate that non-dusting kills are possible with the pliers themselves, let alone everything else.
I am a: Chaotic Neutral Human Bard/Sorcerer (2nd/1st Level)
Str- 12, Dex- 15, Con- 12, Int- 14, Wis- 11, Cha- 13
Cmdr I. Heartly Noah
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Decrypting fallen decrypted units?

Postby Binty » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:29 pm

More things to watch out for:

Wanda can lead uncroaked into battle adding a "huge bonus" (see Klog#10). Will the same apply to decrypted?

With respect to take-over the world tactics, Stanley could attack the weakest targets in range. As long as Wanda can be protected (Jake could help here), then GK's forces can only grow.

I imagine that upkeep is the biggest cap on force size a side can have. As Decrypted units have zero upkeep GK forces have no such limit. Therefore GK may already have more forces than most sides can ever have...
Binty
 
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 7:10 am

Next

Return to Everything Else Erfworld

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest