New Erfworld Magic!

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New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Kaed » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:52 pm

It seems that today we have the concept of an until now unexplained form of magic - Moneymancy!

While I admit that my first impression of it was closely related to its name, that it was the process of creating free schmuckers or rands. The fact that every kingdom doesn't have a Moneymancer to support their treasury would have indicated that their services are either not very cost effective or they are very rare. Perhaps kind of a paragon class of caster that takes many turns and many schmuckers to create, only being useful in the very long term.

Apparently this is not so, however. Moneymancy appears to be more related to the creation of towns, and very possibly the popping of units. At its very basic level, perhaps simply the transformation of raw materials and money into a new, more useful form.

My question however is what use an actual Moneymancer would be. The use of Moneymancy to create a new city or town seems to be a similar to other 'natural' magic, a natural Moneymancy if you will. We all know there is no such caster in Gobwin Knobs roster, so what could the purpose of popping/hiring one be?

This thread is intended for brainstorming and theories of what Moneymancers are useful for. There may be stupid answers, but there may be wrong ones yet!
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Mikalyaran » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:59 pm

Maybe a moneymancer gets you discounts on your purchases or perhaps they can "cook the books."
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Binty » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:02 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:Maybe a moneymancer gets you discounts on your purchases or perhaps they can "cook the books."


Perhaps there are schools of magic that have no associated caster/spell. Overlords exercise natural Moneymancy, that's it.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:05 pm

Well I think you are on target about it being "Natural" Moneymancy. It seems to me that treasuries are on some level all natural Moneymancy, although Wanda did "take" the 350K Shmuckers to the Magic Kingdom, and Sizemore paid Janis with a bag of Rands...

Still, Fixing/Upgrading a city by merely ordering it, having the money deducted automatically - I don't think this is rare.

However, we did know several things about Moneymancy already -

1) Gems can be made into Shmuckers by any Commander or Ruler. That's Natural Moneymancy

2) A Moneymancer can make a Gem out of Schmuckers. That's active Moneymancy.

3) Non-Capital sides, or "Natural Allies" like Marbits, Gobwins, and Elves 'pop' new units by paying from their treasury (instead of 'growing' them over time in cities). That's Matural Moneymancy.

Moneymancers can probably do much more than just make gems, but that alone is one cool power.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Kaed » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:13 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:Maybe a moneymancer gets you discounts on your purchases or perhaps they can "cook the books."


I find that amusing xD

The Moneymancer makes the treasury "forget" a zero here and there in the unit costs, or whatnot xD

Binty wrote:Perhaps there are schools of magic that have no associated caster/spell. Overlords exercise natural Moneymancy, that's it.


While this idea does have merit, I rather prefer the concept that all schools can have focused casters of them. It makes for a more interesting magic system.

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:However, we did know several things about Moneymancy already -

1) Gems can be made into Shmuckers by any Commander or Ruler. That's Natural Moneymancy

2) A Moneymancer can make a Gem out of Schmuckers. That's active Moneymancy.

3) Non-Capital sides, or "Natural Allies" like Marbits, Gobwins, and Elves 'pop' new units by paying from their treasury (instead of 'growing' them over time in cities). That's Natural Moneymancy.

Moneymancers can probably do much more than just make gems, but that alone is one cool power.


This is an interesting idea, and could perhaps be a way to more easily facilitate trade between kingdoms. Instead of handing over bags of schmuckers, the Moneymancer simply creates a barrel full of valuable gems.

This does not explain though how the large transactions of money shown in book one - like buying the scroll that summoned Parson - are so easily done, or how hiring mercenaries like Charlescomm seems to be an instant debit taken from the kingdoms account as soon as you sign his contract.

I'm not sure how such an ability could be worth the cost of hiring a Moneymancer.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Duckman » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:26 pm

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:1) Gems can be made into Shmuckers by any Commander or Ruler. That's Natural Moneymancy
2) A Moneymancer can make a Gem out of Schmuckers. That's active Moneymancy.
3) Non-Capital sides, or "Natural Allies" like Marbits, Gobwins, and Elves 'pop' new units by paying from their treasury (instead of 'growing' them over time in cities). That's Matural Moneymancy.
Moneymancers can probably do much more than just make gems, but that alone is one cool power.


Maybe a Moneymancer works like a "market"? Perhaps he can transform something into something of equal value: shmuckers into gems/units/items, items into schmuckers, or anything in between.

Yeah, I know. It sounded better in my head.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Nebulious » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:32 pm

Duckman wrote:Maybe a Moneymancer works like a "market"? Perhaps he can transform something into something of equal value: shmuckers into gems/units/items, items into schmuckers, or anything in between.

Yeah, I know. It sounded better in my head.


How about the Moneymancer that than turn his enemies into schmukers? Now that's efficiency!
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Infidel » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:03 am

My guess is that a moneymancer can perform moneymancy away from natural support. For example, building a city on a city site - no moneymancer needed. Building a fort or popping troops in the middle of the wilderness - moneymancer required.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:14 am

That's just it, though - you don't hire a Moneymancer - you pop one or turn one. Sure, he costs an upkeep like anyone else... but it shouldn't be too high.

Charlie probably has a Moneymancer on staff (if anyone does, he would! Maybe Transylvito...) - if not, the Arkendish probably helps somehow.

Shmuckers probably don't weigh much - in fact, 5 Shmuckers and 350K are probably the same - 1 bag (think bags of holding).

I figure a Moneymancer is to treasuries what a Thinkamancer is to hand-carried messages. The same result, but faster, better, stronger. Sure, in your own capital you can just snap your fingers and fix a city, deduct the cash from your treasury - but across a whole empire? Trading with other empires?

Hmm... Moneymancers might make up contracts like Charlie's or negotiate the terms of alliances or surrenders.

Either way, making money safe so it can't be taken if your city is conquered is a big deal - especially if you have a lot of money. Remember that at the beginning of the comic, Stanley was looking at abandoning 500K Shmuckers to his enemies in order to run off to Faq. If he'd had a Moneymancer instead of any one of his 5 casters, he could have slipped off to Faq with 500K to start his new city up right.

Also, if he had a Moneymancer linked to Maggie, he could probably gem up other people's cash - for a fee. Add Jack and they could be giving people counterfeit Shmuckers all over the place.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Duckman » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:17 am

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:Also, if he had a Moneymancer linked to Maggie, he could probably gem up other people's cash - for a fee. Add Jack and they could be giving people counterfeit Shmuckers all over the place.


I like the way you think. Now, your last name wouldn't be Maddof, would it?
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Kaed » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:17 am

Cmdr I. Heartly Noah wrote:Also, if he had a Moneymancer linked to Maggie, he could probably gem up other people's cash - for a fee. Add Jack and they could be giving people counterfeit Shmuckers all over the place.


Or better yet, link Sizemore and a Moneymancer - Instant cashing of every single Gem in the hex, and probably several around. They could just go from hex to hex, filling the treasury instantly each time.

For that matter, I wonder if you can link 3 Thinkamancers to create a greater possible chain of casters.

Can you imagine that? Get enough Thinkamancers together and you could create a gestalt entity capable of anything imaginable!

I suspect this cannot be done though, seeing as casters do not in fact rule the entire world, vaporizing and converting all enemies into schmuckers.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Bobby Archer » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:42 am

Kaed wrote:For that matter, I wonder if you can link 3 Thinkamancers to create a greater possible chain of casters.

Can you imagine that? Get enough Thinkamancers together and you could create a gestalt entity capable of anything imaginable!

Our best anthrosorcerologists are already hard at work on the mind-bending geometry of horrors this thinking leads to. :)
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby kin » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:42 am

I'm leaning towards the conversion powers of shmuckers to gems, etc. In this way, they are like money-launderers or pawn-shops - keeping money safe from the enemy.

Also, since natural moneymancy has lots to do with unit-popping, I think unit-popping off-base makes sense as well.

Maybe they increase treasury incrementally too?
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Kaed » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:08 pm

kin wrote:Maybe they increase treasury incrementally too?


Perhaps having a Moneymancer on roster causes the city treasury to have an interest rate per X turns?

Novices would probably be like 4% every 10 turns or something, while a Master-Class Moneymancer might be 0.5-1% per turn.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby raphfrk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:15 pm

Infidel wrote:My guess is that a moneymancer can perform moneymancy away from natural support. For example, building a city on a city site - no moneymancer needed. Building a fort or popping troops in the middle of the wilderness - moneymancer required.


Interesting idea. I think "create new city site" would have to be very expensive though, as otherwise Transylvito wouldn't care so much about Jillian's city sites.

Also, Stanley only has around 150k Schmuckers left. I think this is further evidence that it is just a level 1 city, as it is so cheap (or the summoning scroll was massively expensive).

I guess that Sizemore's gems are contributing to the city build, but I wonder how much value he can mine in 1 turn.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby raphfrk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:23 pm

kin wrote:I'm leaning towards the conversion powers of shmuckers to gems, etc. In this way, they are like money-launderers or pawn-shops - keeping money safe from the enemy.


Right, it looks like Schmuckers are linked to cities somehow.

According to the wiki, units can only carry 1000*level Schmuckers, perhaps moneymancers could be 100,000*level. In any case, conversion to gems would allow units to carry more.

Maybe if a side loses a city, that city's share of the treasury is also lost (i.e. if you lose 1 of 10 cities, you lose 10% of the treasury).

It would depend on how the treasury works. If each city has its own total, then losing a rich city would be more expensive than losing a poor one. There could be a system where units "based" at a city must be funded by that city. Also, any mines/income sources linked to the city, deposit money in the city's treasury.

Moneymancers might help with moving money between cities, either by gem conversion or perhaps handling "electronic" money transfer. Without a moneymancer, it would be harder to empty a city's treasury just before it feel to the enemy. Moneymancers might also be used for "electronic" money transfer to other sides (at least 1 of the 2 sides would need a moneymancer). This would allow sides that have moneymancers to earn a fee by acting as intermediary. The Magic Kingdom probably has a few moneymancers, who could have handled the 350k scroll price.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Binty » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Well if Moneymancer specialists do exist my money would be on them providing banking services.

* Insurance
* Loans
* Investments
* Currency convertion
* Currency transfer

Thb I cannot imagine a duller caster class... Perhaps, if there are spells, it is a secondary discipline. i.e. Casters like Wanda can turn their hand to it if they need too, but few/no casters specialise in it.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:48 pm

I don't understand why people doubt there are casters for every discipline. There is a Magic Kingdom full of casters. Each section is the same size, and covers only 3 disciplines. Presumably, each axis is equally strong and demands equal representation. We saw something like 6 or 8 Hippiemancers in the same place at the same time more than once. Even if that were all the Hippiemancers, we could expect similar numbers in each of the 8 realms, and with equal distribution, 1-3 casters for each discipline. That they even bother with titles like "Grand Abbie" indicates that the numbers are far larger.

And as far as cross-classing and secondary disciplines; Wanda would seem to be a special case, to have the ability to do such a variety of magic; and she's not even interested in doing it. Conversely, Sizemore, who has a seemingly unique curiosity about other disciplines, has no aptitude for them. Finding someone with both would seem to be quite the rarity. If it were easy, why bother with a dangerous linkup when one caster could handle all 3 disciplines of his art?

I'm confident that there are Moneymancers on Erfworld; or at least were, or can be... that we haven't seen any is not only unremarkable, it's to be expected. This was a war story, why see the accountants?
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Binty » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:03 am

In turn based strategy games the distribution of unit types tend to be very uneven. It depends on what units players choose to buy.

Maybe in Erfworld Overlords cannot order specific caster units. Maybe its pot-luck what you get when it pops; then you might find even. Otherwise overlords will favour specialists with the most utility. This is all highly speculative of course.
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Re: New Erfworld Magic!

Postby Cmdr I. Heartly Noah » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:41 pm

Of course if they had their choice, they'd lean certain ways, but I don't believe they do, or every sizable faction would have a Thinkamancer and a Lookamancer at minimum, and they don't.

It's not even clear they can plan on producing casters at all.

It's possible most of the casters in the Magic Kingdom are effectively Barbarians, or Natural Allies-type sides, or even their own Capital Sides.
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